Mav Starting Line

[canadianpolak]

I am really upset with what is happening. In the last 13 games, the Mavericks did not even try to put Antawn into the starting line up. Why not try C- Dirk, PF- Antawn, SF- Walker, SG- Fin, and PG- Nash. Theyre doing ok, 9-4, 2nd in the west, but they could be doing much better. Id rather have them find their footing with Antawn in the starting line up than have them try to find it in a less efficent way when he comes off the bench. Last night vs. Denver, they started Najera at C, who is smaller than Antawn, and not as good as a rebounder even. It's just too bad that they havent even tried it, for sure it could be argued against that Antawn should not start, but they should give it a shot. They have a new team this year, and they are planning in a really traditional fashion. Now what's up with them trying to get old man Davis from Toronto, CUBAN WAKE THE HELL UP, youre slipping since the trade buddy, your space man uniform SUCKED, your starting line up plus your line ups during the game need more revision and experimentation, and you're gonna make a deal that would really cost you, long-term and short. PEOPLE, i need your thoughts, why is there this trade rumor? How would Dallas benefit from getting Davis and losing Antawn and Delk....should Antawn be included in the starting line up? Lvubun1, great work with finding the link
http://www.82games.com, it supports for the Fab 5 starting line up
eg.
Unit
Nash-Finley-Jamison-Walker-Nowitzki
Min
8.38%
Off
122.9
Def
79.8
Net
43.1
W
8
L
1
Win%
88.8
eFG
559
eFGA
.351
FTA
+0.9
Close
33%
dClose
33%
Reb
93%
T/O
+5%

Look at it in relativity to the other line ups, WAY better.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

I am agianst any line up that has Dirk playing the 5 for more than 10 -12 minutes per game. Let the Stick man & the Potato get most of the minutes there & keep Jamison on the benh. Nellie is not starting Jamison because he wants him to be fully acclimated to his sixth man role. As for the Davis trade, I say hell no! Just wait until next off season & try to land a guy like Foyle or Tag & lets role.

[Murphy3]

just because they are the five best players does not mean that it'll be the best lineup.

Dirk's the best defender that they have at the PF spot. Moving him out of position and putting him at the five with walker or jamison at the four just makes it difficult for the mavs to compete defensively against many teams

sure, some teams it makes sense just to line up the five best scorers and run them off of the court. however, that won't work against many teams

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

That lineup doesn't see a lot of time, and it shouldn't. That lineup is not exactly awe inspiring on the defensive end (although not as dismal as some make it out to be) and playing Dirk at the 5 for extended minutes is asking for trouble. That lineup should be on the floor only in situations where the team needs to shoot itself out of a deficit or get a crucial last second shot. For all the improvements in D and rebounding, I don't know if I trust this lineup when it comes down to the W or L depending on getting a stop.

[Razor]

What do you think of Dirk,fin,nash,jamison,bradley line up?? I believe that is the way to go. I think the reason walker is the starter is for the same reasons jiri welsh saw so much playing time. How much longer till we can trade someone from the celtics trade?

[Murphy3]

I prefer Walker in the starting lineup over Jamison. Walker's probably a slightly better defender and he also has the ability to make others better with his passing. I would like to see just a little better shot selection out of him. However, I wouldn't be too upset one way or the other if Walker or Jamison were in the starting lineup.


As for someone being traded, I just do not see that happening until the Mavs can get a clear read of what they have with this group.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

Originally posted by: Razor
What do you think of Dirk,fin,nash,jamison,bradley line up?? I believe that is the way to go. I think the reason walker is the starter is for the same reasons jiri welsh saw so much playing time. How much longer till we can trade someone from the celtics trade?

That was the preseason. Nellie's not going to do something like that in the regular season because one of two things happens:
1. The team loses, but said player looks really good. Nellie knows the value of the regular season and homecourt advantage. Obviously this isn't happening now althoguh it did in the preseason.
2. The team wins, in which case if it ain't broke...

besides, Nellie is not going to pull the trigger of a deal unless it is a no-brainer, so who is on the block that would really significantly improve this team?

[kingrex]

Nellie is pretty determined to make Jamison the sixth man of this team. Jamison will learn this new role and provide that offensive punch from the bench. If Dirk and/or Walker get into foul trouble, Nellie likes having that guy on the bench he can go to, thus Jamison.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jamison in the starting line-up, but I also see his value coming off the bench. I have no doubt that the Big 5 is our best line-up, but that doesn't mean that they should start the game. Nellie likes to play with match-ups and having Jamison as a type of trump card can be an advantage. It isn't our best defensive line-up, but certainly our best all-around.

As for trade rumors, I prefer to comment on them when and if they happen. So far, the Mavs management has not done a bad trade. At the very least it has come out even. They are opportunistic and whatever trade they make will usually improve this team (using history as proof).

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: canadianpolak
I am really upset with what is happening. In the last 13 games, the Mavericks did not even try to put Antawn into the starting line up. Why not try C- Dirk, PF- Antawn, SF- Walker, SG- Fin, and PG- Nash. Theyre doing ok, 9-4, 2nd in the west, but they could be doing much better. Id rather have them find their footing with Antawn in the starting line up than have them try to find it in a less efficent way when he comes off the bench. Last night vs. Denver, they started Najera at C, who is smaller than Antawn, and not as good as a rebounder even. It's just too bad that they havent even tried it, for sure it could be argued against that Antawn should not start, but they should give it a shot. They have a new team this year, and they are planning in a really traditional fashion. Now what's up with them trying to get old man Davis from Toronto, CUBAN WAKE THE HELL UP, youre slipping since the trade buddy, your space man uniform SUCKED, your starting line up plus your line ups during the game need more revision and experimentation, and you're gonna make a deal that would really cost you, long-term and short. PEOPLE, i need your thoughts, why is there this trade rumor? How would Dallas benefit from getting Davis and losing Antawn and Delk....should Antawn be included in the starting line up? Lvubun1, great work with finding the link
http://www.82games.com, it supports for the Fab 5 starting line up
eg.
Unit
Nash-Finley-Jamison-Walker-Nowitzki
Min
8.38%
Off
122.9
Def
79.8
Net
43.1
W
8
L
1
Win%
88.8
eFG
559
eFGA
.351
FTA
+0.9
Close
33%
dClose
33%
Reb
93%
T/O
+5%

Look at it in relativity to the other line ups, WAY better.

I think Nellie should at least try to start the Big 5 in a few games. We don't know how it will click since no one has seen it yet. What we have seen if that it worked in the second half of the Denver game. If the Big 5 doesn't get big leads in the first quarter, then maybe they should try something different. I would be willing to try a Big 5 starting lineup just to see what happens. Its still early in the season anyway.

By the way, canadianpolak, are you living in Canada?

[Stressboy]

It also closed out the Spurs game at San Antonio. That is our best rebounding and thus best defensive lineup. Aslo, it creates the biggest mismatches for the other team. As I said when this trade went down, if we are going to win a championship, it is that lineup that will get it done. The more time they get together, the better they will be including Dirk who needs to learn to play the 5. Defensively, he is about equal to Rasho, but offensively, he is the best center in the league and yes, offensively, he is better than Duncan or Shaq. We need to stop messing around and get that team to start and finish and plug in Best, Najera, Howard, Bradley, Fortson, Delk, throughout the game.

Stressboy

[Chiwas]

Even when Nelson is a proved good coach for matchups rotations, also is a proved bad coach whith his Nellie ball.

I mean, he often gets advantage chosing an specific player over a player of the rival's coach, but, in the same time, often he gives advantage in other spot.

The statistics theory says that everything has to get even in the long term, 82 games, then why to play risky when there is an optional rotation, the big five, that can give him the same with less headaches?

[jayC]

If Bradley and Fortson were viable options at center why did the mavs spend most of the offseason trying to lure in ZO or Brad Miller. The answer is that they don't trust these guys to win a championship. Granted Bradley has played well of late but I have seen so many games where he doesn't play hard.

Im not necessarily pulling for the big five to go 48 minutes a game but they have hardly played together as a unit. Jamison, Walker and Dirk are far better rebounders then bradley. If bradley and minutes is the answer then why do we have a big men free agency thread? Greg Ostertag, come on, Vlade. Simply put why even bother playing bradley if he isn't your answer.

[Dirks Hair]

Id rather start Jamison. Scoring a butt load of points in the first means less pressure to make points in quarters 2 -3, and it seems like the mavs are always playing close these days up til the middle of the 3rd.

So, please start Jamison, or atleast give it a try for one game, Nellie can come up with 1000 starting line ups before he ever thinks of putting jamison in the starting line up. he is so weird.

Go Mavs!

[jacktruth]

Starting lineups, particularly with Nellie are overrated. You choose a starting lineup to set the tone of the game and get your players operating in thier strength as early as possible. On the defensive side, you want to prevent the other team from setting the tone, and getting thier players operating in thier strength.

Nearly every team in the NBA starts with the same strategy: Pound the ball inside and establish an inside game early. When you get into a rythm and the other team makes adjustments, start an inside-out game to your best shooters.

If you start Dirk at center, teams will attack the basket, and they will be successful. Dirk gets frustrated defensively (perhaps even in foul trouble). Dirk also is out of place offensively, and though he can score at the 5, he is not as successful. By then the opponent gets warmed up and feeling good (possibly with a point advantage), thier outside shot starts dropping, and you are playing thier game.

But if you start Bradley, the defense faces a great shot blocker. Dirk plays his natural position on defense and gets off to a better start offensively. The front court of Bradley-Walker-Dirk is a good rebounding group, which frees Nash up a bit.

Now, the other team must make adjustments to the Mavs tone and the mavs offense. After all that, you still have a premier scorer on the bench in Jamison. Once the mavs start thier frontcourt rotation, they are tough to beat. You nearly always have Dirk-Walker, Dirk-Jamison, or Jamison-Walker. Any of these pairs can produce points and rebounds. If you are going against a backup center, you have a major offensive advantage with Dirk-Jamison-Walker.

To sum up, the start of the game is a small part of the game. The stretch of the game depends much more heavily on your rotation than on your starting lineup. That is the Mavs current philosophy. This year, I'm on board with it.

[LRB]

Excellent analysis Jacktruth. I sincerely hope that we can go with it more. And it is far easier to keep an opponent frustrated than it is to get them frustrated in the 1st place.

I also like Bradley starting because if the refs are going to tag anyone with 2 quick fouls it will probably be Shawn than anyone else in the Mavs front line. Otherwise it seems that Dirk has the higher probability. And if I had to choose between having Shawn or Dirk in foul trouble, it's no real contest. I choose Shawn everytime. We can survive better without Shawn than without Dirk. Nellie can sit Shawn to protect him and have him come back in later. This allows Shawn to still play very agressive on D while he's in the game. With Dirk, Nellie usually can't afford to sit him long, so usually Dirk has to play while in foul trouble. This means that he has to cut way back on his agression while on D. I would prefer that we as much as possible have a team on the floor where everyone can be fairly agressive on D.

[Stressboy]

Jacktruth,

The only valid point you have is the potential foul trouble invovling Dirk. I would argue that because of Dirks lack of perimiter defensive skills that playing Center is his most natural and most effective defensive position and that by covering up his lack of D outside, the unit as a whole is much better off. Dirk is also becoming a decent help side shot blocker.

The reason to advocate Jamison to start is both Nellie tendenices. 1) He almost always plays his starters together for the first 7-8 minutes before bringing in the first bench player. 2) He has started Dirk at Center in the majority of lineups so far, thus negating the foul trouble issue. The fact that Dirk has started at center and not really had many foul troubles discounts the foul argument to some extent, but some of you guys that love to crunch numbers, can I'm sure find the actual breakdown.

The first one is the most significant because it allows Jamison to get his deserved and natural 30-35 minutes a game. I would play the fancy five for the first 8 minutes to start the 1st and 3rd and the last 7 minutes of the game. That is a total of 23 minutes with the best 5 on the floor together at the most crucial times. The other 25 minutes would have the combinations that you talk about.

As for Dirk not being effective at the 5 on O, that is just crazy. When Dirk starts to consistently hit the 3 again, you will see the true power of that lineup. The reason we have been struggling a lot(beside the two games without Nash) is that Dirk is hitting only 20% of his 3's and he is starting to pass them up. When that changes, people will trully fear the Mavs.

Duncan, Shaq, Miller, Dampier - I can't think of any others that might beat up Dirk in the post, but he is just a likely to get them in foul trouble as the other way around if they try to chase him on the perimiter. Also, I don't mind switching up a little to start some games as the matchups dictate, but overall the goal is to get the best 5 players on the floor as much as possible to get as much chemistry as possible going forward.

Stressboy

[Mavs Rule]

Now this is what I call a quality debate! Nice posts Jacktruth and Stressboy. I tend to lean toward stressboy's take on this. The big five have shown that they play very well together, and having them start would give us more of a cushion going into halftime of more games.

The more they play together --> the more they learn the nuances of each other's game --> the more they will click at the end of games and when playoffs roll around. I have noticed that Toine is finally starting to feed Twan more, knowing that he will get a quality shot. These two could develop a real chemistry together like Steve and Dirk have.

[grndmstr_c]

I still like Bradley or Fortson in the starting lineup at center most nights with one of the A's coming off the bench. The virtues have been extolled by others, so I won't repeat them. As to Delk occasionally getting the start, I'm not big on that. I think he'll pay nice dividends for us eventually, but it'll be backing up Steve and Mike, and coming in to match up with teams like Minny and Sac when they go small. Since these teams won't start their small lineups there's no reason for us to do it (I know Minny will start Wally at SF, but his weakness is creating his own shot off the dribble, so I think we can defend him with either AJ or AW).

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: Mavs Rule
Now this is what I call a quality debate! Nice posts Jacktruth and Stressboy. I tend to lean toward stressboy's take on this. The big five have shown that they play very well together, and having them start would give us more of a cushion going into halftime of more games.

Unless you always play your entire starting lineup for the entire first half, I don't follow your reasoning. Who you choose as your starting five doesn't describe what happens in the first half as much as a list of who played how many minutes. Who you sub in during the first half has a bit to do with the number of points you score in the half.

Also, how much "cushion" you have at the half has to do with how many baskets you prevent on the other end of the floor. This big 5 lineup cannot effectively guard the center position consistently. Recall that playing center defensively involves man-to-man and help defense. It involves much more help defense than the power forward spot. Although Dirk is improving at pretending like he's a center, he is still not a center and will never be as effective at center as he is at power forward on offense or defense.

How much cushion you have at the half doesn't always translate to how much cushion you have at the end of the game, which I much prefer.

[dirno2000]

Put me in the Stressboy camp.

It does matter who starts. If you think that the 5-star lineup is your best (and the early +/- numbers would support this), then you need to start them. Otherwise, it's hard to get them on the court at the same time for any significant minutes in the 1st half. By the time Nelson brings in Jamison, it's time to start resting the others.

The "Dirk should not play center" argument gets way too much play. He plays nothing like a center on offense so we can eliminate that part of the argument. On defense, when we are in man-to-man, Dirk will almost always play the weakest offensive player. On most teams that's the center. I would much rather have Dirk playing Center on defense than small forward. While his perimeter defense has improved, it still lags behind his post defense. I saw Chris Anderson blow by him untouched the other night. That shouldn't happen.

I also think this group enjoys playing with each other. They just seem to pick it up on both ends of the court when they are on the floor together. Saturday night was a perfect example. We go with an offensive lineup and Denver's fg% drops. Not because any of those guys are stoppers, but because they like playing together and the intensity seemed to pick up. If everybody is willing to chip in and do the little things, there's nothing wrong with having 5 scorers of the floor.