The Mavs are a Mediocre Team

[Captain Disaster]

Let's face facts: we are in real trouble this season. We are right on the edge at this moment. Either we will put it together and start winning regularly (and on the road), or we can pack it in for this year. Everyone jumped down my throat when I objected to the Van Exel trade and the general dismantling of the team calling me stupid, moron, unintelligent, etc..., and I know the season isn't over, & I realize the liabilities of Van Exel, BUT, this team sucks! If you look at our side of the box score tonight, it looks like we won the game: balanced scoring, decent shooting, low turnovers; however, this has been repeated again and again. I'm not saying that we lack talent, but it is absolutely FOOLISH to try to go a whole season with a clumsy, out of shape, injured, disinterested center, an undersized, heavy power forward, and a finesse 7 foot power forward tying to play the 5! What were/are they thinking? Who are we waiting to land? Where is this magical big man their seeking down the road? SO, WHY didn't they sign freaking 7 foot STIFFS to sit at the end of the bench ala Eshmeyer and get in the game and absorb some punishment for 20 - 30 minutes? Unless there is some magical move coming (which would require more gelling!) this year is OVER! These people are PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES! They get paid MILLIONS of dollars! What are they doing? Where is the passion? The intensity? The hustle? It's extremely frustrating watching MEDIOCRE players on other teams beating the crap out of the Mavs all over the floor. Sure, this is the NBA, and on any given night, the unexpected can happen, BUT now it's official: WE are mediocre! And we're not going to get any better unless the brains who are running the show can get some people in here who have some pride in their work ethic; who can commit to mixing it up defensively.

[Jamisonite]

its not the Van Exel deal that made us go downhill...its the walker trade...we have too many people at the 3 and 4 position and only one true 5...and hes not a great one...hes a good 15 minute center but nothing more. Loosing Lafrentz as bad as he was... hurt us

[ReDIRKulous]

Walker at least wants to play against the good teams. So that is a plus. Getting rid of Raef's contract was a miracle and he also is injured this year anyway.

You also don't know how things might have gone if we had kept Raef and Nick either. They could have gone just as bad if not worse. I could have seen Nick causing more problems as he got more comfortable here and wasn't starting. The big three still would have had injury problems anyway... which would has been the teams biggest problem. And we had to have the big three to win last season anyway. At least Walker was able to carry some of the weight while guys were down.

[OutletPass]

Orginally posted by Captain Disaster:
"Let's face facts: we are in real trouble this season."
Orginally posted by Jamisonite:
"its not the Van Exel deal that made us go downhill...its the walker trade..."

-- I'll play "devil's Advocate Now" and just ask....didn't we become :

1) A better rebounding team.
2) A better passing team.
3) A team with more depth.
4) A team with a couple of great rookies (for a change)

Last year, those seemed to be weak points....we couldn't rebound or pass well..and we got torched on D. Last year, the Big 3 and, NVE (at times) took us to a near 60 win season....so why do you change that ? There has to be an overriding reason to "break up" what was basically a 60 win team....a WCF finals team.

The truth is this....that team wasn't broken up...we didn't trade any of the big 3. We traded a backup PG with attitude for a 20/8 SF, A "supposed" double-double guy, and Jiri. And, heavens to Betsy, we got rid of Esch, and to a lesser degree, more flotsam in Avery,. All told, we got rid of the very end of our bench and got Jiri and the Potato in exchange. Was that a great trade ? ...yes it was, NVE, unfortunately is going to die a slow death with GS and not hit any real numbers. But let's judge this trade by that little 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Did we improve our rebounding ... obviously, yes. Jamison, Fortson and Jiri would have improved us so damn easily over NVE. Would we have become a better passing team...that's a bit more of a question. But Jiri beat NVE. Would we have more depth...that's easy...3 goods always beat one good...among guys that ACTUALLY play (and that's why I exclude anything from AJ and ESCH) ...Did we have more good rookies ? Yes, we would have had 3, really. Jiri was one.

My thought: The GS trade was a GREAT one. Jamison and jiri are SO much better than NVE alone...it's just no question. Fortson, as you're finding out, isn't anywhere close to a double double player. MFF and I told you that long ago.

Before we move on to the Boston trade, just think back to last year and ask how this team would work, after 59 wins last year, just substituting NVE out and Jamison and Jiri And Fortson in.

If you'd like to bust my argument, you could easily say that ..."Well Raef went out to inury; Shawn did too, and Fin did and Dirk did and Eddie did and Jiri wouldn't have gotten time...unless Fin went out and JHo's progress would have been retarded unless both Fin and Dirk went down..."...but good players are good players and depth is depth....and now we don't have much...it's what we traded away...

The Boston trade:

Why is it that the Celt's fans are ecstatic ? In the GS trade, the Mavs traded smaller for bigger...and old for young. And got 2 for 1 or 3 for 1; depending on what you think about Fortson. In the Boston trade, that was turned aroung; no matter wht you may think about Raef or Waker; Jiri still is the deal breaker. When all was said and done, we gave up 2 for 1; we traded bigger for smaller; and we trade young for old.

But if that satisfies 1,2,3 and 4...it's ok....or even 3 out of the 4.

Did the Boston trade improve our rebounding...No. Did it improve our passing...well...that's close...did it improve our depth...no. Did it give us another good rookie...no...

Revisiting both trades, I would have loved to have gotten a 5...Dampier is probably the only one in both trades who is close to a normal 5 in shotblocking and rebounding. Boston's cupboard was in mothball's. I would have listed defensive players as our #1 need, but I know that they're not available and/or we won't sign them...

So knowing all that, would you have stopped after the GS trade or gone on to the Boston trade ?

IMO, it didn't do much for our needs as a 59 win team.

I'd love to have a good or great 5...but that's the Mavs achilles heal...Donaldson and Tarpley, in franchise history, were the closest, and that's not sayin much !!!!

[Lvubun1]

1. Yes the Mavs are a better rebounding team, but they are also worse defensively.

2. Not really, Jamison is pretty much a black hole 1 assist per game, Delk and Best are horrid, Walker is decent but it would be better if all he did was pass. Last year the Mavs averaged 22 assist per game this year the Mavs average 22 assist per game, turnover-wise they are actually up a whole turnover a game. According to 82games.com last year the Mavs had 499 turnovers come from bad passes, this year they are already at 225 only a third into the season so they are on pace to have 276 more bad passes then they had last year.

3. Disagree with this one also, where is the depth? If the Mavs had some much depth they wouldn't be playing six guys so much this year. Jamison of course is the main guy but who do they have after that Najera and Bradley are worse then they were last year, Delk and Best suck, Fortson please don't get me started, tonight got a DNP "Tooth ache". One of the things that basketball people and media say that is the Mavs biggest problem is all the role players they lost from last year. Take away NVE and Jamison both of those guys were the "6th starter" and playing starter minutes, look at the other guys. Who would you rather have Fortson, Delk, and Best or Raja, Walt, Raef, and Griff?

4. Very true but its a moot point. The trades had nothing to do with the rookies, if the Mavs did the trades or not they still would have Howard and Daniels.

I really disagree with anybody who says this team wasn't blown up just because the "Big 3" wasn't traded. When you have 12 guys and a majority of them are new, that's a team that has been blown up. Don't believe me? Believe Steve Nash = "This is not the Dallas Mavericks from last year," Nash said. "We're a totally different team. We could be wearing another uniform." Link

As for "Jamison and Juri being better then NVE alone" or "Walker being better then Raef" it doesn't matter this isn't a video game. Best talent doesn't always win if that was the case the Blazers would have atleast 2 rings. All teams have the chance to become better "talent-wise" easily every single day, it isn't a big deal. If that was the only objective, somebody would have traded for Rasheed already, and teams would have offered more to the Celtics then Raef to get Walker, every team in the league had a shot to get Walker most of them pasted, same can be said for Jamison also but that's not the name of the game. Look at the team the Mavs traded with dispite having alot less talent this year G.S is a better team then they were last year.

'would you have stopped after the GS trade or gone on to the Boston trade ?"
Nah it would have been better if the trades were reversed, in a perfect world the Boston trade came first, the Mavs then go on and trade Walker and Delk for Jamison and Dampier/Fortson or something to that effect (though it seems they didn't want to part with Dampier) Of course I don't see why G.S would want Walker and Juri was suppose to be the "deal breaker"(which i don't buy, didn't Nellie say the same thing?) but once again in a perfect world it would have happened. The Mavs roster turnover would be alot less, they still get the improved rebounding maybe better, the passing stays the same, still have the two rookies, depth would be so good it wouldn't even be funny defense without a doubt would be alot better with Dirk not having to play center, even if you include that the Mavs would still have NVE(considering that the Mavs are actually 'worse' defensively then last year its safe to say he wasn't the "Mavs worst defender or the main reason why the Mavs didn't play D last year). PG play would make a complete 180 and we keep some of the toughness and leadership we lost. And then I wake up..................

[jayC]

Shut up you whiny poster. Your solution to everything is to blow up the team. Its one game, just thirteen games ago the spurs were a lottery team in the conference. Hell this team isn't going to shut people down. Just have a beer and chill out.

[stevie_franchise3]

DeFense, Defense, Defense.

Thats what it is going to take to make Dallas an elite team again.

Did you guys see at the end of the game yesterday how Gadzuric was killing you guys? And did you see how 6-6 Mason sky'd over 7'0" Dirk Nowitski for an offensive putback. That is terrible.

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: stevie_franchise3
DeFense, Defense, Defense.

Thats what it is going to take to make Dallas an elite team again.

Did you guys see at the end of the game yesterday how Gadzuric was killing you guys? And did you see how 6-6 Mason sky'd over 7'0" Dirk Nowitski for an offensive putback. That is terrible.

Yes, one play, Mason is extremely athletic, I think what's worse is Yao's rpg for a 7"6 "star"

[stevie_franchise3]

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

Yes, one play, Mason is extremely athletic, I think what's worse is Yao's rpg for a 7"6 "star"

Funny how Yao averages more rebounds than your 7'0 supposedly superstar, this year, in just his second year in the league. How many did Irk have in his second year?

Yao may be a little slow but at least he plays defense better than Irk and alters so many shots in the paint. Why do you think the Rockets are the league's leader in opponent FG%?

[kg_veteran]

DeFense, Defense, Defense.

Thats what it is going to take to make Dallas an elite team again.

Thanks for the in-depth analysis.

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: stevie_franchise3

Funny how Yao averages more rebounds than your 7'0 supposedly superstar, this year, in just his second year in the league. How many did Irk have in his second year?

Yao may be a little slow but at least he plays defense better than Irk and alters so many shots in the paint. Why do you think the Rockets are the league's leader in opponent FG%?

Dirk is averaging .5 boards less then Yao this year, take out the game dirk got hurt 7 minutes in, and he probably passes Yao
Yao is 7"6, not 7 feet, he should get 10 plus easy

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: stevie_franchise3

Funny how Yao averages more rebounds than your 7'0 supposedly superstar, this year, in just his second year in the league. How many did Irk have in his second year?

Yao may be a little slow but at least he plays defense better than Irk and alters so many shots in the paint. Why do you think the Rockets are the league's leader in opponent FG%?

When you guys get out of the first round (oh make that get into the playoffs) them come back and yack. You sound just LIKE stevie franchise, it's a good name for you.

[dude1394]

I think re-viewing the trades are good interesting message-board fodder.

I re-do the gs trade in an instant. It was just too much potential talent to not do it imho. As for the celtics trade I wasn't completely on-board with that one because I've never been a raef-hata'. I always figured he would get his rebounding up and then we would have a very nice center. I still think this will be the case, raef will be a very serviceable center in this league.

As for the glue guys (raja, griffin, walt) there was no reason we couldn't have had them back, no reason at all. Best was the only person we really had to go get because of nve and because we didn't feel jiri welsch was ready for point duty.

You can easily replace raja with josh so that is a wash to me(except for josh's relatively poor shooting).
Then it's griffin/walt, I can't believe they are the difference makers.

If I look at the top 5 items that op mentioned with respect to the boston trade:
1) A better rebounding team. (I don't see how you can argue with this. Walker for goodness sakes is leading the team in rebounding, raef wasn't close. The team is a far better rebounding team)

2) A better passing team. (Debateable but not obvious, so this is a wash)
3) A team with more depth. ( Best is the biggest problem we are actually having now. Bradley/Najera is the others. We may not like it but najera plays with some grit we didn't show last night. Also bradley if relatively healthy is certainly a help.)
4) A team with a couple of great rookies (for a change) (Neither trade effects this I think).

EDIT (All of the above is on paper, below is today it seems).

So what is going on?? I have some theories:
1. Attitude/Leadership: I think we may be missing this much more than we know. Instead of the big three being surrounded by veterans like NVE, AJ, Walt, Griffin, Raja.. They are now surrounded by daniels, josh, fortson, delk, best... Since I'm not in the locker room I can't be sure but I like the verteran leadership and just HOW TO BE A PRO that the former brought. We don't know how many times that dirk/fin/stevie have had to try and straighten out the newer folks.
2. Desire: ??? Last night was a loss because of want to, no doubt about it. The bucks were the ones getting on the floor, scrapping for balls, the mavs just weren't willing to do the dirty work. This is where vets like najera, raja, williams, griffin would have come in handy.

I could go on about the attitude, made it to wcf last year, regular season not that important etc., dirk/fin/raef injuries.

So bottom line, assuming raef were still here I was all for the trades. Now having made them, I think I like what walker brings more than jamison so if something needs to be done (and I think it does) and jamison has to go for it, I'm on-board with that.

[Chiwas]

But got a bunch of talent, but lost the team.

Either Nelson find quick a team again out of all the assets Cuban brought, or Cuban finds another coach who can do it as Adelman and Popovich did it.

When NVE and LaFrentz came to the Mavs, Nelson took more than a year to build a team with them -in the 14-0 streak both didn't play.

Yes, the Mavs have defeated more times the top teams this year, but so they did 2 years ago, when they weren't considered a threat by those teams. Now it's happening the same.

I won't want to wait one more year to see again a competitive team. Either Nelson do it quick, and I'm talking about one more month at most, or Dallas gets a new coach without any fear to handle a powerfull roster at its best.

Where is the passion? The intensity? The hustle? It's extremely frustrating watching MEDIOCRE players on other teams beating the crap out of the Mavs all over the floor.

My same frustration, but I can't blame the players.

....didn't we become :

1) A better rebounding team.
2) A better passing team.
3) A team with more depth.
4) A team with a couple of great rookies (for a change)

And also an under .600 team, when just 8 months ago was the top NBA winner.

Time to jell? Oh yeah, ask the Kings with a new team and without Webber. I wonder how our record would be without Dirk. Close to .400 easily, I could bet.

This team needs a shake, a big shake.

[Chiwas]

You can't just say "defense wins championships". It's NEVER that simple.

That's right. Tactics using offense and defense, more offense or more defense depending on the identity of the team, on the opposite team, and on the circumstances (injuries, tiredness, home or road, etc), but always both present, or better yet, in a balanced way.

[SaltwaterChaffy]

This thread seems knee-jerk to the extreme. This thread comes after the loss to the Bucks the night before. If it had come after our four game losing streak, it would have made sense. But it comes after a loss that ended a four game winning streak. I'll take a 4 to 1 win pace, or even a 3 to 1 win pace and be extremely happy. We got things going in the Sac game, and then continued it. If this loss leads to a losing streak, then I will shut my mouth. But for right now, this seems unnecessary.

[Walkerforthree]

Ok, the Mavs need D to win the championship. Now Houston, they need to get to the playoffs to win the championship

you like simplicity?

[stevie_franchise3]

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree
Ok, the Mavs need D to win the championship. Now Houston, they need to get to the playoffs to win the championship

you like simplicity?

And Dallas, And Sacramento, and LA, and Minnesota. SA.....shoot the whole NBA needs to get to the playoffs to win the championship wouldnt you agree?

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: stevie_franchise3

And Dallas, And Sacramento, and LA, and Minnesota. SA.....shoot the whole NBA needs to get to the playoffs to win the championship wouldnt you agree?

Ahh yes, but all of those teams made the playoffs last year and will again this year, Houston however....