Just in case you missed Avery Johnson... - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

bobatundi · 01-13-2011, 04:51 PM

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Brook Lopez is having a difficult third season with the New Jersey Nets, as new coach Avery Johnson is a lot more demanding, neurotic and less cool than Kiki Vandeweghe. With the Nets narrowly trailing the Suns (a team that features the other Lopez twin, Robin), Bro-pez got into the game, bricked a jumper, and got yanked. This was his reaction on the bench (via Deadspin): "I'm so tired of this guy. F--k him."

Wow--took Avery two seasons to lose the Mavs' players. He's accomplished it in three months in Jersey.

For many (obvious) reasons it was tough going from a Mavs season ticket holder to a Nets sth...but the worst part of all has been watching an admittedly bad Nets team play even worse than they should because of Avery's plodding offensive schemes.

fluid.forty.one · 01-13-2011, 05:14 PM

I can't deny that I'm enjoying AJ accumulating all these losses.

dude1394 · 01-13-2011, 05:27 PM

Play harder...play like me...where's tim duncan?

Bayliss · 01-13-2011, 05:49 PM

When asked about all the Melo talks, Avery responded with:

"I just want a center who can average 10 rebounds a game."

Underdog · 01-13-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

When asked about all the Melo talks, Avery responded with:

"I just want a center who can average 10 rebounds a game."

GermanDunk · 01-13-2011, 06:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Bayliss

When asked about all the Melo talks, Avery responded with:

"I just want a center who can average 10 rebounds a game."

Tell me, that´s not true ...

fluid.forty.one · 01-13-2011, 06:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Bayliss

When asked about all the Melo talks, Avery responded with:

"I just want a center who can average 10 rebounds a game."

hahaha wow...

here it is:
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2011/01...unds-not-melo/

dude1394 · 01-13-2011, 09:46 PM

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Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

hahaha wow...

here it is:
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2011/01...unds-not-melo/

His prize dampier is still out there? Is there any doubt after hearing this that he pushed the hardest for dampier?

Dirkadirkastan · 01-14-2011, 04:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Bayliss

When asked about all the Melo talks, Avery responded with:

"I just want a center who can average 10 rebounds a game."

Asshat or not, that was his way of denying the trade rumors. Everyone denies the trade rumors, when will you guys ever figure this out?

AO41 · 01-13-2011, 07:11 PM

Some people give Avery wayy too much credit for the Mavs team that made it to the finals. Those couple of years we had a really god team and I believe if we had a diff coach....a good coach we would have won it all.

fluid.forty.one · 01-13-2011, 07:21 PM

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Originally Posted by AO41

Some people give Avery wayy too much credit for the Mavs team that made it to the finals.

and for Dirk's MVP.

you won't find many of those people around here

dude1394 · 01-13-2011, 09:47 PM

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Originally Posted by AO41

Some people give Avery wayy too much credit for the Mavs team that made it to the finals. Those couple of years we had a really god team and I believe if we had a diff coach....a good coach we would have won it all.

Especially the littlest napoleon....

Tom Hanx · 04-12-2011, 12:00 PM

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Originally Posted by AO41

Some people give Avery wayy too much credit for the Mavs team that made it to the finals. Those couple of years we had a really god team and I believe if we had a diff coach....a good coach we would have won it all.

Have you actually looked at the roster of that team that went to the finals?? Nobody on that team was really good except Dirk. our starting team was howard (sucks/gone), damp (sucks/gone), dirk, terry (sucks/needs to be gone), and harris. That was not a good team in hind sight, don't know how we made it so far. Avery brought something called defense to the table and all of a sudden the mavs are playing in the finals. Nellie could build good teams, but Avery took them to the next level.

Maybe as a coach he's an aszhole to play for but I think he's smart and knows how to win if players listen.

Underdog · 04-12-2011, 12:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Tom Hanx

Have you actually looked at the roster of that team that went to the finals?? Nobody on that team was really good except Dirk. our starting team was howard (sucks/gone), damp (sucks/gone), dirk, terry (sucks/needs to be gone), and harris. That was not a good team in hind sight, don't know how we made it so far. Avery brought something called defense to the table and all of a sudden the mavs are playing in the finals. Nellie could build good teams, but Avery took them to the next level.

Maybe as a coach he's an aszhole to play for but I think he's smart and knows how to win if players listen.

Yeah, we played awesome defense against Miami, Golden State and New Orleans.

Total difference-maker.

Tom Hanx · 04-12-2011, 12:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, we played awesome defense against Miami, Golden State and New Orleans.

Total difference-maker.

Miami- team choked and refs sucked

Golden State- team chocked/choke of the century

New Orleans- he had lost the team by then... players stopped listening to him. thats why he was fired

It wasn't Avery's fault in Miami or GS. That was clearly the teams fault for choking, b/c Avery's gone and they're STILL DOING THE SAME THING. they should have blown up the team after GS.

Underdog · 04-12-2011, 12:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Tom Hanx

Miami- team choked and refs sucked

Golden State- team chocked/choke of the century

New Orleans- he had lost the team by then... players stopped listening to him. thats why he was fired

It wasn't Avery's fault in Miami or GS. That was clearly the teams fault for choking, b/c Avery's gone and they're STILL DOING THE SAME THING. they should have blown up the team after GS.

You know there are only 2 players left from the Golden State series, don't you?

Also, we've played our best defense of the Drik era this season (until Butler got injured), so I'm not sure how Avery would improve anything...

Thespiralgoeson · 04-12-2011, 04:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Tom Hanx

Have you actually looked at the roster of that team that went to the finals?? Nobody on that team was really good except Dirk. our starting team was howard (sucks/gone), damp (sucks/gone), dirk, terry (sucks/needs to be gone), and harris. That was not a good team in hind sight, don't know how we made it so far. Avery brought something called defense to the table and all of a sudden the mavs are playing in the finals. Nellie could build good teams, but Avery took them to the next level.

Maybe as a coach he's an aszhole to play for but I think he's smart and knows how to win if players listen.

It's hard for me to talk about Avery Johnson without getting angry, but I'll try. Here goes.

Avery is pretty good at motivating his players for a while, but pretty damn terrible when it comes to actual basketball strategy/game management.

Yeah, I'll give him credit for emphasizing defense, but it doesn't exactly take a genius tell a team "Hey geys, get back on D!" And while you might be right about those teams not being being all that talented, I can tell you exactly why they made it so far. The first and obvious reason is Dirk; for my money the dude was the best player in the NBA for about a three year stretch. The second reason is that for those 3-4 years the Mavs were an absolutely dominant rebounding team. Say what you will about the Dampier/Diop combo, but for all of their shortcomings they rebounded at a very impressive rate. And Josh Howard may suck now, but sure as hell did not suck before 2008 (in fact he was pretty damn awesome before that.) Let's also not discount that they were consistently the best free throw shooting team in the league, which is why they won the vast majority of their really close games.

Avery's approach to the game was about as simple as it could possibly be, and in due fairness it was very effective most of the time. He basically ran an almost entirely iso-driven offense that consisted of Dirk posting up at the elbow, and guys like Howard and Stackhouse trying to score off the dribble. The problem with Avery's approach to offense was that it broke down completely as soon as guys started double-teaming Dirk and dare someone else to score. A smart coach like Riley or Nellie could see right through Avery's plan, and Avery had NO FRIGGIN CLUE how to respond.

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It wasn't Avery's fault in Miami or GS. That was clearly the teams fault for choking, b/c Avery's gone and they're STILL DOING THE SAME THING. they should have blown up the team after GS.

"It wasn't Avery's fault.." That's so asinine that I'm tempted to not even respond. Two of the biggest choke-jobs in NBA history, a complete and total meltdown of the offense in both series and that has nothing to do with coaching? Nothing to do with game-planning or game-management? Give me a break. Not blaming Avery for those losses is sort of like not blaming Nixon for Watergate.

I sort of gave Avery a pass for the loss to Miami because he was technically still a rookie coach and before that the flaws in his gameplan had never been exposed before. But for the same thing to happen again a year later is absolutely inexcusable and very much his fault (although Cubes and Donnie deserve their share of the blame too for not fixing the personnel problems).

Any competent coach could have made a few basic, elementary adjustments, and things would've gone very differently for the Mavs against Miami and Golden State. For one they could've tried setting a f*cking pick once in a while, or maybe try throwing an entry pass BEFORE the shot clock is about to expire, or maybe try moving without the ball and cut to the basket instead of just standing there like idiots while Dirk has three defenders swarming around him. But no, those things were too complicated for Avery Johnson.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-13-2011, 07:53 PM

Well Brook Lopez is averaging 5.9 rebounds per game. That's absolutely pitiful for a center getting 34 mpg.

mavs777 · 01-14-2011, 02:50 AM

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Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well Brook Lopez is averaging 5.9 rebounds per game. That's absolutely pitiful for a center getting 34 mpg.

Well he averaged 8+ last 2 years before Avery got there

sefant77 · 01-13-2011, 10:11 PM

Its not just Brook Lopez.

The way he treats a veteran like Troy Murphy is joke. The way he kicked out a talented Terrence Williams.

He is hurting the team with his ego. He puts his ego over everything else.

AJ is a horrible fit as a coach. Its that simply. He got just lucky to get his first job with a veteran team that was easy to handle and was able to win just with pure iso´s.

mavs777 · 01-14-2011, 02:53 AM

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Originally Posted by sefant77

Its not just Brook Lopez.

The way he treats a veteran like Troy Murphy is joke. The way he kicked out a talented Terrence Williams.

He is hurting the team with his ego. He puts his ego over everything else.

AJ is a horrible fit as a coach. Its that simply. He got just lucky to get his first job with a veteran team that was easy to handle and was able to win just with pure iso´s.

Also he isn't giving Favors consistent minutes, for christ sakes the kid is averaging 7 PPG and 5 RPG in 19 minutes, he is an absolute monster on the offensive glass (2.1 ORPG). He does need to work on his defense and how to play aggressive without fouling, but he should be getting 28-30 MPG

bobatundi · 01-14-2011, 01:47 PM

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Originally Posted by mavs777

Also he isn't giving Favors consistent minutes, for christ sakes the kid is averaging 7 PPG and 5 RPG in 19 minutes, he is an absolute monster on the offensive glass (2.1 ORPG). He does need to work on his defense and how to play aggressive without fouling, but he should be getting 28-30 MPG

Yeah, that part is really frustrating to watch. I mean what's his deal, is he afraid Favors will make "rookie mistakes" and cost his team a win or two? An extra loss or two for the Nets this year isn't about home court advantage...it's about more ping pong balls.

The Nets are a bad team, but they shouldn't be as bad as their record. They just don't have a Dirk to make the other team pay on isos, so they get outscored every time, even though they play pretty solid defense.

sefant77 · 01-14-2011, 09:40 AM

The guy tried to teach Jason Kidd at the age 35 because he thought he knew it better.

Now the guy trying to teach one of the best young center because he thinks he knows everything better.

alexamenos · 01-14-2011, 12:45 PM

Remind me again how many games the Knicks won last season?

......

edit: I meant Nets, of course.

CadBane · 01-14-2011, 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by alexamenos

Remind me again how many games the Knicks won last season?

......

edit: I meant Nets, of course.

Last year they didn't have Humphries, Favors, a healthy Harris, Outlaw, etc.

The fact is, Brook, their centerpiece, has regressed massively. Avery is just too draconian. When your star player is that frustrated with his coach, there's a problem.

alexamenos · 01-14-2011, 09:52 PM

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Originally Posted by CadBane

Last year they didn't have Humphries, Favors, a healthy Harris, Outlaw, etc.

The fact is, Brook, their centerpiece, has regressed massively. Avery is just too draconian. When your star player is that frustrated with his coach, there's a problem.

When your *star* player is a center who's averaging less than 6 boards a game on a team that won 12 games last year, you're a crappy team....no matter who is coaching.

mavs777 · 01-14-2011, 10:49 PM

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Originally Posted by alexamenos

When your *star* player is a center who's averaging less than 6 boards a game on a team that won 12 games last year, you're a crappy team....no matter who is coaching.

this "star player" averaged 8+ rebounds the last couple of years

alexamenos · 01-15-2011, 01:22 PM

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Originally Posted by mavs777

this "star player" averaged 8+ rebounds the last couple of years

It takes one helluva bad coaching job to make a player forget how to block out.

CadBane · 01-14-2011, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

When your *star* player is a center who's averaging less than 6 boards a game on a team that won 12 games last year, you're a crappy team....no matter who is coaching.

I'm not saying the Nets are a good team, not by any stretch. And Brook needs to play better, period. That said, Avery has already worn out his welcome there. His draconian, micro-managing Napoleon complex has shattered the players quick.

Bayliss · 01-14-2011, 05:21 PM

Dirka, it may have been a way to deflect the trade rumors, but you don't do it by pisssing off the best player on your roster.....

Dirkadirkastan · 01-14-2011, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Bayliss

Dirka, it may have been a way to deflect the trade rumors, but you don't do it by pisssing off the best player on your roster.....

That's a reasonable interpretation, considering Lopez averages less than six boards per game. He's definitely not saying "I'd rather have Dampier than Melo", so whoever thinks of it that way completely misses the point.

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-14-2011, 05:46 PM

I don't mind the Avery bashing at all, because I think most of it is well deserved, but in the video he says he "dreams of our center grabbing 10 rebounds", not "averaging 10 rebounds". I don't think he means it as a knock on Brook, my interpretation of it is that he's merely saying he's dreaming about the little things the Nets need to do in order to win basketball games. Now I'm not saying that it isn't his fault that Brook Lopez has regressed noticeably, just saying that I don't think Avery is bashing him in that video.

CadBane · 01-14-2011, 05:47 PM

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Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I don't mind the Avery bashing at all, because I think most of it is well deserved, but in the video he says he "dreams of our center grabbing 10 rebounds", not "averaging 10 rebounds". I don't think he means it as a knock on Brook, my interpretation of it is that he's merely saying he's dreaming about the little things the Nets need to do in order to win basketball games. Now I'm not saying that it isn't his fault that Brook Lopez has regressed noticeably, just saying that I don't think Avery is bashing him in that video.

Oh there is absolutely no question that was a clear shot at Brook. Those two have been going at it ALL year. Not to mention, Brook IS there center...so obviously he's speaking of him.

rabbitproof · 01-15-2011, 12:09 PM

How much of Melo's wanting to go to NYK has to do with avoiding Avery?

He's risking a lot of cash. If he tears an ACL this weekend, he'll be kicking himself for a long time.

mavs777 · 01-15-2011, 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by rabbitproof

How much of Melo's wanting to go to NYK has to do with avoiding Avery?

He's risking a lot of cash. If he tears an ACL this weekend, he'll be kicking himself for a long time.

None of it, he wants to play home, win, and in the biggest media market

rabbitproof · 01-15-2011, 12:26 PM

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Originally Posted by mavs777

None of it, he wants to play home, win, and in the biggest media market

Home/market will come with the move to Brooklyn.

Win remains to be seen but that's dependent on so much.

Bayliss · 01-15-2011, 06:00 PM

Well to be fair to Lopez, he didn't play in the WCs this summer because of an illness(mono), and he had it to start out the year. Then he injured (his shoulder?) I believe... didn't miss games but it effected him. Then he he plays with Humphries (who is from the Danny Fortson school of rebounding... ie stealing it from your own teammates).... And NJ plays at a slower pace this year as opposed to last (27th this year to 25th last year)

So the 2 rebound difference is somewhat explanaible.

bobatundi · 01-16-2011, 10:46 AM

Not taking any responsibility away from Lopez--he's gotta box out, man up, play as hard on D as he does on O--but you've got the Nets playing at a snail's pace, and their opponents shooting a pretty high FG%, and (as a previous poster mentioned) Kris "The Mavericks' 15th man" Humphries going after every rebound even if it means leaving his man and stealing them from his own teammates. So it's not that surprising that Lopez isn't averaging 10 boards a game. And let there be no doubt, Avery's comment was a shot at Lopez, that's the kind of passive-aggressive little control freak that he is. Remember all his comments after the finals, where he talked like he was taking ownership of the losses while clearly throwing jabs at his players? He's totally in Lopez's head; no doubt in my mind Carmelo doesn't/wouldn't want to play for Avery; and he's been jerking Favors around all season, too. Hopefully their GM & owner will realize the mistake they made, realize why nobody touched Avery for two years after the Mavs ran him out of town in spite of his winning percentage, and just suck it up & make the necessary change.

Big Boy Laroux · 01-28-2011, 11:45 AM

Avery was a good fit for the mavs in his first year because he was such an opposite of Nellie. You see it all the time. Disciplinarian takes over for a "player's coach" (or vice versa), team finds temporary success. Coaches wear out their welcome over time with their particular style. You Dallas folks have seen this lately with the transition of Tuna to Wade to Garrett.

The problem with Avery is he quickly went waaaaaay too far in the other direction. Micro-managing EVERYTHING.

Mav Addict · 01-28-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Avery was a good fit for the mavs in his first year because he was such an opposite of Nellie. You see it all the time. Disciplinarian takes over for a "player's coach" (or vice versa), team finds temporary success. Coaches wear out their welcome over time with their particular style. You Dallas folks have seen this lately with the transition of Tuna to Wade to Garrett.

The problem with Avery is he quickly went waaaaaay too far in the other direction. Micro-managing EVERYTHING.

Bingo!