State of the Mavs

[jthig32]

So posting something like this immediately after that kind of loss is probably not the smartest thing. I'll probably be much more knee jerky than I should be. But I've been feeling this way for going on two weeks now, and I need to get some thoughts out.

This team is just not very good. It's just not. You can show me the standings, show me how this team is only 4.5 back of 2nd place in the West. Whatever. This Mavericks teams is, at best, the 8th best team in the West. Period.

So as of this moment, what do we do? What is the plan from Cubes and Donnie? Obviously everyone wants to trade Josh. I want to trade Josh. I've never had less fun watching Josh play. I defended him all last season, and I defended him early this season. And I don't know if my perception has just changed, but it's become obvious to me that this team can not win with Josh on the floor on a consistent basis. Josh is completely incapable of contributing to this team on offense unless he is out and out gunning. If he's not attacking with the singular notion of scoring the basketball, he is worthless to this team.

And maybe it's just me seeing what I want to see, but I think this team is frustrated with his tunnel vision and frustrated by his shot selection. Kidd's quote was telling the other day when he discussed how Josh can learn that he can help without trying to score all the time.

To me, Josh is destined to put up decent numbers on bad basketball teams his entire career. And if I had to guess, I would say that he will probably prefer that to doing what he's doing now.

So they need to trade Josh. We alll agree. But for what? What kind of move do you make? I am absolutely *terrified* of this front office making another short sighted, win-now move. Because I'm sorry, this team is not one move away from being legit. I'm not even sure a Pau Gasol level trade makes this team legit. Say you could somehow convince the Bucks to give you Redd for a package centered around Josh. Does that make this team legit? No way. I love Redd, but does Redd help this team play defense?

The reality is this team has too many holes to patch with one trade. This team has too many holes to patch on the fly. It must be torn down and rebuilt. What level of torn down..I don't know.

Trading Dirk is just not the answer. Not right now. I still think you have a better chance tearing everything else down and trying to rebuild around Dirk than you do trading him and hoping you stumble upon your next franchise player. Plus how terrible do you want to be next season without a first round pick?

To me, the answer is a dramatic shakeup everywhere but Dirk. So start with moving Josh. Then...you move Jet. No one loves how Jet has played this season more than me (well maybe Silk loves it more). Jet has been fantastic. The way he has adjusted to Kidd and the way Carlisle has used him has been amazing, and should embarass Josh, the guy we all thoguht would benefit most from Kidd.

But as much as I love Jet and what he brings off the bench, if you ever want a traditional team with a traditional SG, you have to move Jet now while his value is at an all time high. I'm still not sure what you get for him because of his unieque skill set/body combination and his big contract that last until '11/12, but you have to get what you can right now.

Whether or not you move Kidd depends solely on what you can get and what your plans are over the next two seasons. My guess is Kidd finishes this season with the Mavs and leaves.

So there it is. It's not a very well thought out plan. I don't have any specific potential trades because I think those are mostly a waste of time. But if I'm running the Mavs, I am actively looking to shake this roster to its core, to acquire as much young talent and draft picks as I can, and I'm not moving Dirk.

Thoughts?

[ghazi]

If you retool the roster and try to acquire young draft picks and talent... it could take 3-4 years for that talent to blossom... Dirk would be out of his prime by then, wasting Dirk's few remaining prime years would just be terrible.

I don't see us getting lucky in 2010. There's only 4 names that appeal to me from that class anyway: Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Johnson. No guarantee that any will opt out, and if 1 or 2 do it's unlikely we'd wind up with them, given our karma.

*sigh*, I think we're broke beyond repair.

[craggmac]

It WOULD be nice to get all four of them however.

[Popeye]

With the 2010 chase and the poor economy, you could get some good players if you're willing to take on big contracts, but I doubt Cuban is willing to do that.

Kidd needs to go. There's no point to him being here.

[jthig32]

Oh and let me just take this moment to say that I was very, very wrong about the end of Avery's tenure in Dallas. Not wrong in him needing to go. He did. And I don't feel bad for how I felt/feel about him. I think he's an egomaniac and I dislike him strongly.

But Avery was clearly not the problem last year. Clearly. So Alexa, Dirno, Dub....kudos.

[vRookie]

Broken beyond repair is probably true, ghazi . I see us getting crushed in the next two games as well, which will cause our FO to panic and trade for the sake of change (and get raped in the process by other GMs). By that time the team would be too demoralized to turn this season around and the trade would not have brought any help. The end result would be that we miss the playoffs and become the laughing stock on NBA for the next decade

Sorry for painting such a bleak picture but that's where I see things going.

[Flacolaco]

LOST was really good tonight.

<ducks>

[alby]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So as of this moment, what do we do? What is the plan from Cubes and Donnie? Obviously everyone wants to trade Josh. I want to trade Josh. I've never had less fun watching Josh play. I defended him all last season, and I defended him early this season. And I don't know if my perception has just changed, but it's become obvious to me that this team can not win with Josh on the floor on a consistent basis. Josh is completely incapable of contributing to this team on offense unless he is out and out gunning. If he's not attacking with the singular notion of scoring the basketball, he is worthless to this team.

And this is the difference between a contributing member and an annoying one that doesn't provide anything constructive to the board. Great post thig.

As far as the state of the Mavericks--it is pretty clear what needs to be done. A parting with Josh Howard is more than necessary and it should have been done yesterday, not only from a basketball standpoint...but, mentally he is bringing the state of the entire team/franchise down. I can't believe one person can do that to an entire organization, but on/off the field.. he is pretty close to T.O. which is very hard for me to even say because I love Owens and I love the fire/passion that he brings to the field.. but in some cases (as seen in this past year for the Cowboys), it is just too much for teammates, coaches, and fans to bear. In other words, it gets old. Josh Howard would actually be the perfect 6th man in this league, he can be the superstar for the second team... and if he's playing well, he can end the games in the fourth quarter. However, that role by all means, cannot and should not be thrusted on him because he's been a starter since day 1 for us so who knows what a move like that would do to his head.

So, if Josh Howard is the first thing that needs to change, what's next? How about worrying about getting over that hurdle first before worrying about other things... because apparently, the pot smoking 28-year-old is a lot harder to trade than the front office originally thought. Thus, I advise to focus on the Josh Howard situation first and foremost.

With that being said, I will always love the Mavericks and I will always pull for Dirk. Like I said, the guy deserves better than what this franchise has given him. Kidd was a good start towards making Dirk's job easier (this is why I will always defend that trade), but it shouldn't stop there. We need to build more pieces around Dirk and give the man one last serious run very soon... or else everyone should be setting their Tivo's now because the man is going to leave Dallas and never look back.

[dmavs1980]

The mavs are just losing games they are supposed to lose.

Nothing personal against the mavs but they just aren't very good. Again,nothing personal.

[LonghornDub]

I wish I could say I knew what the best course of action would be. I do know one thing, though--whether or not you like or despise Cuban (and Donnie), they are even more worried about this stuff than we are, and will work night and day to try and figure out what to do. Maybe they end up making a mistake, but there won't be any lack of effort on their part.

[fluid.forty.one]

JET is my 2nd favorite Mav of all time. That said, I agree about needing to trade him. His value will never be higher.

We *might* be able to retool if we trade Howard and Terry.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

JET is my 2nd favorite Vav of all time. That said, I agree about needing to trade him. His value will never be higher.

We *might* be able to retool if we trade Howard and Terry.

Who could we get that is better than Jet in a trade? Jet is more valuable to this team than in a trade. I put trading Jet right b4 trading Dirk. I say our two current pieces to build around is our Superstar and our 6th Man of the year. We all know Josh should be gone, and for the most part Kidd is not a good fit for this current roster.

[Silk Smoov]

Jhig,
You just cant get rid of Jet. If you believe we should get rid of Josh, then you look at his contract and you have to believe we can get that SG that you want. I dont see getting rid of Jet as the solution, because then who is the #2? We are not going to get a better player for Jet, so why even bother with it? I think that losing Jet would be the last straw for Dirk and it could push him to opt out and test the market and move on. We have a 36 year of Kidd with an expiring contract and a young All-star type SF in Howard whose contract is not that bad, and a Stack expiring contract. I see all those options before trading Jet. If we cant get something for those three options then we dont need to even be a professional team. I say trading Jet is the #4 option after taking the other 3 options I suggested. IMO

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Jhig,
You just cant get rid of Jet. If you believe we should get rid of Josh, then you look at his contract and you have to believe we can get that SG that you want. I dont see getting rid of Jet as the solution, because then who is the #2? We are not going to get a better player for Jet, so why even bother with it? I think that losing Jet would be the last straw for Dirk and it could push him to opt out and test the market and move on. We have a 36 year of Kidd with an expiring contract and a young All-star type SF in Howard whose contract is not that bad, and a Stack expiring contract. I see all those options before trading Jet. If we cant get something for those three options then we dont need to even be a professional team. I say trading Jet is the #4 option after taking the other 3 options I suggested. IMO

Trading Jet is probably #3 or 4 on the pecking order if he's on it. I mentioned it in another thread...with Jet and a trade, it's about Value. His value was pretty terrible after the Finals or the following year, he wasn't playing like he can and he had a lot of time still left on his deal. NOW he is playing the best basketball of his life probably and the contract is easier to swallow for a team, but the main thing is that he is playing amazing this year. I would need an amazing deal, but if you can get it...you're definitely selling high, I can't see how he'll keep it up (this rate) through this year and going forward.

[ghazi]

Who wants Jet though? his contract runs past 2010-2011. His value may be high due to his play, but very limited due to this contract.

Ugh, I love JET too... he's been great this year!! Could we honestly get a better player? This coveted big 2 guard, any names out there? Redd? Miller? What interest would the Bucks or Twolves have in J-Ho or Jet?

[Rick41]

I'm sad.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by ghazi

Who wants Jet though? his contract runs past 2010-2011. His value may be high due to his play, but very limited due to this contract.

Ugh, I love JET too... he's been great this year!! Could we honestly get a better player? This coveted big 2 guard, any names out there? Redd? Miller? What interest would the Bucks or Twolves have in J-Ho or Jet?

If I were the Bucks, I wouldn't take JEt AND JHO for REdd. A black hole and a tweener for a pure scorer with arguably the best stroke in the game.

I don't think Miller does anything more than Jet for us here.


This thing is at the point where even if we keep Dirk and retool, we can't win. We can be heart broken in the playoffs like the last 5+ years, but I think it's time to put everyone in our trade talks. Try to rebuild around Dirk but if something comes along you can't live without, then you gotta move on.

I don't mind if we have to rebuild, I don't think it will take as long as some would like to believe.

[payne]

I have been a fan of the mavs since i started watching basketball, and i must say this is the most upset i have ever been. I was upset when we lost to SA in the WCFs, i was upset when we traded Jamison, i was upset when we got Dampier, i was upset when we traded Van Exel, I was upset when we lost to the kings in the first round, i was upset when we lost to phoenox in the second round, when we traded harris, lost to the heat in the finals, then to to GS and NO in the first round. I knew Dallas was never a really strong playoff team, but atleast we were alwways a great season team, until now. IDK what to say, but its time to re do our rotations.
Wright needs to play less or not at all
Barea as well
Willams and Green need more time.
I know terry is a great PG, but i prefer him with the ball than Barea.

[twistaeffect2004]

First off, very well written and thought-out post Mr. Thig.

Now, onto what the Mavs do. I wrote this a while back, and it still holds true, imo. The Mavs right now are in the tough position of being a "tweener" team. They are still good enough to make a legit run at a low playoff spot, but not near good enough to have any sort of impact championship run. This core of guys (meaning Dirk, Terry, J Ho and Damp) are never going to win anything with each other. Too much heart break. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose dramatically the way these guys have year after year, it takes a toll, especially mentally. Now, the Mavs tried to patch this up last year with the Kidd-Harris trade, but this in hind sight was a disastrous move because not only did we bring in another aging star for a player who has turned into an All-Star, but we also gave away first round picks. That trade alone has set this franchise back a couple years imo.

Lets see what we're dealing with here.. who has the value on this team?

Dirk: The greatest Mav ever, and a guy that has to carry this team on his back, night in - night out. He's again having a great season, and is one of the best players in basketball. He'd without a doubt net a ridiculous amount of value, but like others have expressed, I'd rather build around the Diggler than bet on receiving another franchise guy. With that said, he's going to be 31 years old and have taken a lot of abuse over the years (specifically his ankles). He's a workhorse, and is amazing at keeping his body in basketball shape, but how long will Dirk be at this level for?

Jason Kidd: A future hall of famer who has lost a step. Still has amazing basketball savvy, but needs the right system and the right players around him to get his full potential. Considering he is who he is, and his huge expiring... he'd probably net quite a bit in return as well. If the Mavs are willing to admit this mistake, there will be takers out there for his services. Every team can use a Jason Kidd.

Josh Howard: A once promising career has taken a turn that nobody could of foreseen. And it's all his fault. From a very outside perspective, all I can gather is that he has become complacent. I believe it was Dub who was saying in the game thread that he was looking at tapes of Josh circa 2006, and he's changed his game dramatically. He was once the most active player on the court -- he has now become a jumpshooting hack, with an attitude he can't back up. He's become a distraction and this franchise needs to move on without him asap. It also needs to be said that his value is dropping day by day and unless we see Josh transform back into the guy we remember drafting, it's not rising anytime soon.

Jet Terry: This is almost as painful as Dirk. Jet has been one of the best Mavs to ever wear the jersey in my opinion. He's not only been a great basketball player, but he's also been a great citizen and he'll have a place in all Mavs fans hearts for a long long long time. With that said, there is no greater time to get value for him. His peak value is right now. He's the best sixth man in basketball, and is one of the best sparkplugs we've ever seen. He's the modern day Vinny Johnson. With his contract, we need to strike while the iron's hot.

Jerry Stackhouse: A vet who's skills have diminished as well. He's basically a spot up shooter in this point of his career. He has an expiring contract which makes him valuable. His 2008-2009 season has basically been a wash.

Brandon Bass: Young undersized PF/C with a nice contract. Has shown a good deal of potential. Can sometimes puzzle you with decisions on the court, but you can say that about most of the Mavs on this team.


I'm not even gonna include Damp, simply because I don't think any team would want him considering his contract.

The rest of the Mavs are either young, or one dimensional. I wish Gerald Green could get more playing time, along with Shawne Williams... but I don't see that happening any time soon.

So what do the Mavs do? I don't know, I really don't. This franchise is in a really tough spot and they need to decide what direction they want to go in soon. I have a hunch that as long as Dirk is here it will always be directed towards making a championship run, but I just can't believe Donnie and Mark truly believe this team has any chance at achieving that goal.

The best example I can come up with of where this franchise is, are the Kings (Bibby, Webber, Divac, etc) They were a Western Conference powerhouse for years and years. They were so close to winning that title, but never got there. They tried their best to patch up the holes on their team while keeping the main core in tact, but eventually, it needs to be broken up and built again. Everything has to come to an end. I'm not saying this is it for the Mavs. But where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

This team has been at the top, or near it for a long long time now. This franchise should be proud as hell of this last decade. If this is it for a while and the rebuilding needs to begin, then hell.. the memories will keep me busy while I wait for another shot at the title.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

First off, very well written and thought-out post Mr. Thig.

Now, onto what the Mavs do. I wrote this a while back, and it still holds true, imo. The Mavs right now are in the tough position of being a "tweener" team. They are still good enough to make a legit run at a low playoff spot, but not near good enough to have any sort of impact championship run. This core of guys (meaning Dirk, Terry, J Ho and Damp) are never going to win anything with each other. Too much heart break. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose dramatically the way these guys have year after year, it takes a toll, especially mentally. Now, the Mavs tried to patch this up last year with the Kidd-Harris trade, but this in hind sight was a disastrous move because not only did we bring in another aging star for a player who has turned into an All-Star, but we also gave away first round picks. That trade alone has set this franchise back a couple years imo.

Lets see what we're dealing with here.. who has the value on this team?

I didn't want to quote the whole thing, but to bring it back up since I was gone. Well done on the assessment, I agree with most of it. I thought the Kings reference was dead on.

For Dirk, as others have mentioned, I don't think he'll hit a radical decline in the next few years...sure he'll naturally regress, but unless his ankles or something else completely break down on him, he can still shoot the lights out. You're not seeing a dramatic decrease in his shooting percentage, and he's still an elite player...I believe you can still build around him for 4-5 years.

Kidd is probably the toughest part of the equation. I think if he can have another player with Dirk who is a low post guy or a fast break kind of player, that will work for his game. I think he still has a couple of years left in the tank, less than Dirk...but it's not just a one year finale for him. I have a hard time thinking they'll let him go before the deadline. I think they'll want to bring him back for 1-2 more years.

Josh clearly needs to go, there is too much of a cloud around him. To me, on and off the court, he's doing more harm than good. His name is buzzing all around the place and people know that he needs a new location. People want to get him on the cheap, but it's up to Cuban and Co. to decide when enough is enough. Josh is going to produce numbers wherever he goes...there is no way around that, he can be a productive player. The problem is though he can't be counted on consistently, for a floundering team where he is "Batman" he'll do fine.

Jet comments are in the post above.

[rabbitproof]

I'm going to ask a lot of questions since I don't have any answers.

Let's look at history. Which one-superstar-centric and "close but no cigar" team do we resemble most? The 90s Seattle/Utah/Blazers/Knicks?

Which one came out the highest? What'd they do wrong/right?

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I'm going to ask a lot of questions since I don't have any answers.

Let's look at history. Which one-superstar-centric and "close but no cigar" team do we resemble most? The 90s Seattle/Utah/Blazers/Knicks?

Which one came out the highest? What'd they do wrong/right?

Right now, we are the New York Knicks when my main man Bernard King was leading them..

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I'm going to ask a lot of questions since I don't have any answers.

Let's look at history. Which one-superstar-centric and "close but no cigar" team do we resemble most? The 90s Seattle/Utah/Blazers/Knicks?

Which one came out the highest? What'd they do wrong/right?

We look the most like Utah w/ Dirk=Malone, Kidd=Stockton, Terry=Hornacek
Howard=Russell/Shandon Anderson,Dampier=Ostertag, Bass=Antoine Carr

They were a little slow a little old and let their most athletic player(Anderson) go and were unable to replace him effectively. They also had a better coach.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by mac222b

We look the most like Utah w/ Dirk=Malone, Kidd=Stockton, Terry=Hornacek
Howard=Russell/Shandon Anderson,Dampier=Ostertag, Bass=Antoine Carr

They were a little slow a little old and let their most athletic player(Anderson) go and were unable to replace him effectively. They also had a better coach.

That team was contenders every year and made it to the finals on multiple times with that roster.

[Fidel]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I'm going to ask a lot of questions since I don't have any answers.

Let's look at history. Which one-superstar-centric and "close but no cigar" team do we resemble most? The 90s Seattle/Utah/Blazers/Knicks?

Which one came out the highest? What'd they do wrong/right?

Not having MJ was about the only thing they "did wrong". Clearly none of those teams
in the 90`s could have done anything to overcome MJ´s Bulls. Only those two years where he was gone (or not fully back yet) were up for grabs.

As for the Mavs the answer is easy. Shouldn´t have done the Kidd trade (which was obvious to me and a couple others when it happened. Most people around here thought we are crazy). With patience we could have had something really good. Maybe trade Josh for a better character, make some other small tweaks and see how far you can get. The Kidd trade was a dumb panic move and we´ve been paying the price.

Ironicaly Kidds expiring contract is now the best asset we have. Also in addition to (obviously) Josh I´d try to move Jet now because we´d be selling really high the way he´s playing right now.

If nothing big happens I expect Dirk wanting out pretty soon.

[LonghornDub]

Good post twista. I have some thoughts but I don't have time to post them right now. Hopefully I'll remember to in the next day or so.

[grndmstr_c]

I was in class tonight, and thus spared from watching tonight's debacle, but yeah. This team is in need of significant changes.

Just to play it out, and for arguments' sake, I'll take the hard line and say that if you're in charge of remaking the team and you're serious about winning a championship then everybody's available, Dirk included (though in the interest of separating intellectual exercise from emotional realities I should say that it'd break my heart to see him not play his entire career in Dallas and I wouldn't be able to trade him if I were actually calling the shots).

From there, priority number one is trading either Josh or Dirk, because I don't believe the two can coexist successfully any more. Which one gets moved depends on what they can bring back. The standards are obviously different, but I think you balance your evaluation of a given prospective return against each player's best season and current contract status. That is, you consider Josh to be an allstar-level player with a relatively moderate contract of favorable length, and you look at Dirk as a truly elite player who's getting paid accordingly for at least the next couple years. If the better (relative) deal requires you to move Dirk, as would seem reasonable given that Josh is farther off his best form than is Dirk, then the hope is that Josh returns to his all-star form post-trade and in so doing rehabilitates his trade value.

Also, if Dirk's the one to go first, I think you go ahead and cash in on JET immediately. Just get the best deal you can and know that you sold high. Though truth be told I'm very skeptical that this team is going to be able to improve by trading JET. And if you find a good deal for Josh and hang on to Dirk I think you can and should be more selective in moving JET. Whatever his faults, he's proven that he can be highly effective in the two-man game with Dirk down the stretch in tight games, and when you find something like that you don't let it go without good reason.

One final priority: whichever of your three scoring threats (Josh, Dirk, and JET) are headed out, you absolutely have to look to move Stack and/or Kidd with them to maximize your return. Those expiring contracts are on the short list of tools that the franchise has available to it, neither player contributes anything that can't be replaced, and I tend to think when you can package together an expirer and a legit talent (who isn't the one with the expiring contract) you've got a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts (provided you're creative enough to organize the right kind of trade). Stack, at least, needs to be gone by the start of next season, and if Kidd sticks around, then I think it needs to be with the expectation that he'll sign a slightly too large one-year deal in the offseason.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I was in class tonight, and thus spared from watching tonight's debacle, but yeah. This team is in need of significant changes.

Just to play it out, and for arguments' sake, I'll take the hard line and say that if you're in charge of remaking the team and you're serious about winning a championship then everybody's available, Dirk included (though in the interest of separating intellectual exercise from emotional realities I should say that it'd break my heart to see him not play his entire career in Dallas and I wouldn't be able to trade him if I were actually calling the shots).

From there, priority number one is trading either Josh or Dirk, because I don't believe the two can coexist successfully any more. Which one gets moved depends on what they can bring back. The standards are obviously different, but I think you balance your evaluation of a given prospective return against each player's best season and current contract status. That is, you consider Josh to be an allstar-level player with a relatively moderate contract of favorable length, and you look at Dirk as a truly elite player who's getting paid accordingly for at least the next couple years. If the better (relative) deal requires you to move Dirk, as would seem reasonable given that Josh is farther off his best form than is Dirk, then the hope is that Josh returns to his all-star form post-trade and in so doing rehabilitates his trade value.

Also, if Dirk's the one to go first, I think you go ahead and cash in on JET immediately. Just get the best deal you can and know that you sold high. Though truth be told I'm very skeptical that this team is going to be able to improve by trading JET. And if you find a good deal for Josh and hang on to Dirk I think you can and should be more selective in moving JET. Whatever his faults, he's proven that he can be highly effective in the two-man game with Dirk down the stretch in tight games, and when you find something like that you don't let it go without good reason.

One final priority: whichever of your three scoring threats (Josh, Dirk, and JET) are headed out, you absolutely have to look to move Stack and/or Kidd with them to maximize your return. Those expiring contracts are on the short list of tools that the franchise has available to it, neither player contributes anything that can't be replaced, and I tend to think when you can package together an expirer and a legit talent (who isn't the one with the expiring contract) you've got a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts (provided you're creative enough to organize the right kind of trade). Stack, at least, needs to be gone by the start of next season, and if Kidd sticks around, then I think it needs to be with the expectation that he'll sign a slightly too large one-year deal in the offseason.

Great post..I agree 100%.

[Dirkadirkastan]

this mavs is all wrong~~

[mac222b]

I'm all for making another run with Dirk. It would help if we could get lucky w/ a salary dump ala Camby, Mo Willems this past summer. We should not trade J-Ho/Stack in the same deal unless we get at least 2 starters back(O'Neal/Parker,Wallace/Felton, Marion/Cook). Otherwise we don't have a contract to offer w/ our 1st round pick at the draft to make salaries match in a trade. No rookie is going to help a team win a championship (Magic, Dennis Johnson, Cassell? not withstanding). If we could get Marion or Wallace for J-ho and scraps that would shore up our D and we'd get some more easy buckets. Then we'd have to trade Stack/1st for the best available salary dumped player(M.Miller,Camby?). Then w/ our midlevel grab a 2 guard in the A. Parker/Raja Bell/Ben Gordon mold. With the bi-annual go for a backup point or big man(slim pickens,of course). We should have no less than 4 new rotation players by next season w/ 2 of those being starters(3 if we land someone like Camby or Kaman). We're going to have holes. Every team does. We may not land a post player. Then we need penetrating scorers.
I like that alot of the guys we're talking about come with some nice defensive pedigree(Oneal,marion,Wallace,Felton,Parker,Watson ,Camby). We need some of that swagger and toughness that comes with being a prideful defensive unit. We used to have that. Bring in a couple guys with defensive intensity and it's contagious. Ideally we get a difference maker on the offensive end to take the heat off of Dirk and a couple of solid veteran two-way players. It's looking less and less likely we'll land someone like Felton so we may have to hope to re-sign Kidd. Not sure there's much of a market out there for him right now anyway. Would any of these combinations of players added to our core be enough to make another run? If we can add a couple of scorers and shore up the 2 while adding to our depth and defensive flexibility? Why not?!

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Trading Dirk is just not the answer. Not right now. I still think you have a better chance tearing everything else down and trying to rebuild around Dirk than you do trading him and hoping you stumble upon your next franchise player. Plus how terrible do you want to be next season without a first round pick?

I hate to say it, but you just don't "rebuild" around a guy who's over 30. If we're really rebuilding here, then the smartest thing to do is to trade Dirk now and get the best package we can for him.

[mac222b]

If we can't get Mike Miller for Stack straight up(and if we could wouldn't we have done it by now?) from Minn. then we could get creative. We send them Stack's expiring & $ for Cardinal's contract along with their 1st rd. pick from Boston (received in the Garnett trade). It's practically a 2nd rd. anyway it will be so low. We could then offer J-Ho or Kidd along w/ our 1st rounder. Maybe J-Ho/our 1st/George & cash gets us Wallace/Felton. Or Kaman. We could then trade Kidd for the best available deal. Or keep him. I'm not 100% sure this would work but i think the rule says that as long as you have a single pick remaining(meaning two in one draft)you can trade them in back to back years. Doesn't matter whose. And we get to keep the pick we traded for, around 28th overall. This is all assuming we have a deal in place w/ a team that wants a pick more than Stack. If i'm wrong about the rules i apologize.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I hate to say it, but you just don't "rebuild" around a guy who's over 30. If we're really rebuilding here, then the smartest thing to do is to trade Dirk now and get the best package we can for him.

Trade Dirk? If you guys think the Mavs are mediocre now, you'll really hate them over the next decade as we search for our next superstar (remember the 90s?)

Nah, we're better off trying to rebuild around Dirk - even when his skills start diminishing (David Robinson, anyone?)

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Trade Dirk? If you guys think the Mavs are mediocre now, you'll really hate them over the next decade as we search for our next superstar (remember the 90s?)

Hence the term "rebuild."

Nah, we're better off trying to rebuild around Dirk - even when his skills start diminishing (David Robinson, anyone?)

Look, I'd love to keep Dirk and turn the Mavs into contenders again, but I just don't see it happening. Frankly I think we're going to lose him anyway. It's clear he's unhappy, and unless the FO really pulls a rabbit out of its hat, I think he'll walk when his contract is up. Then we'll have lost him for nothing when maybe we could've gotten a terrific young player and a couple of draft picks for him or something along those lines.

As for the DRob reference, the Spurs didn't really rebuild around him. They kept him on the injured list for a year and tanked so they could land Duncan in the draft. I don't see the Mavs doing any such thing.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Hence the term "rebuild."



Look, I'd love to keep Dirk and turn the Mavs into contenders again, but I just don't see it happening. Frankly I think we're going to lose him anyway. It's clear he's unhappy, and unless the FO really pulls a rabbit out of its hat, I think he'll walk when his contract is up. Then we'll have lost him for nothing when maybe we could've gotten a terrific young player and a couple of draft picks for him or something along those lines.

As for the DRob reference, the Spurs didn't really rebuild around him. They kept him on the injured list for a year and tanked so they could land Duncan in the draft. I don't see the Mavs doing any such thing.

the problem with trading dirk is there just arent many people who make sense both ways. I mentioned the amare trade and thats really about it that makes sense that i can see. I mean there are a couple of other people id deal him for if we decide to go into full rebuild but would they do them? Obviously if someones trading for dirk, they are doing it to make a run now. How many teams that are really contenders or could be with 1 move have young players good enough to trade dirk for that they would also be willing to give up? Amare is the only person i could think of.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

the problem with trading dirk is there just arent many people who make sense both ways. I mentioned the amare trade and thats really about it that makes sense that i can see. I mean there are a couple of other people id deal him for if we decide to go into full rebuild but would they do them? Obviously if someones trading for dirk, they are doing it to make a run now. How many teams that are really contenders or could be with 1 move have young players good enough to trade dirk for that they would also be willing to give up? Amare is the only person i could think of.

And that's not going to happen. You're never going to get equal value when you trade a franchise player. But at this point, I think we either get something for him, or we lose him for nothing. Obviously it's better that we get something for him. Even if he decides to stay in Dallas, then we're just wasting the rest of his career unless the FO conducts a miracle.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You're never going to get equal value when you trade a franchise player.

I dunno if it's EQUAL value but that Garnett trade had a lot to it.
A young stud in the making player, 2 or so potential-type guys, 1-2 contract filler/expiring guys and 2 first rounders + cash.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And that's not going to happen. You're never going to get equal value when you trade a franchise player. But at this point, I think we either get something for him, or we lose him for nothing. Obviously it's better that we get something for him. Even if he decides to stay in Dallas, then we're just wasting the rest of his career unless the FO conducts a miracle.

Well let me say this. If this team could get what the T-Wolves got for Garnett i'd be estatic. I don't know if that's possible though. Just a awkward situation the Celtics were in were they had all of this young talent with Pierce on the team.

When KG was in Minnesota, I definitely knew there was a team there... Now? Not so much.

That's just Minnie being Minnie. The KG trade didn't hurt them. I think you could argue that they got the better end of the deal in that trade. Two 1st round picks, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Sebastian Telfair, Ryan Gomes and Theo Ratliff. I wonder how good Minnie would be if they drafted Josh Howard like they were suppose to instead of Edi or if they didn't trade OJ Mayo and Brandon Roy. OJ Mayo, Al Jefferson and Brandon Roy all on the same team?

[jthig32]

Dirk's skills are not going to diminish that quickly. His game is not very reliant on quickness. He'll be an elite scorer for several more years.

I firmly believe you can rebuild around Dirk in the short term.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Dirk's skills are not going to diminish that quickly. His game is not very reliant on quickness. He'll be an elite scorer for several more years.

I firmly believe you can rebuild around Dirk in the short term.

I think Dirk can be a franchise cornerstone for another 5+ years - that's plenty of time to rebuild an elite team again (if we start now!!!)