The Official "Knicks to the Lottery" Thread

[Hitman]

How awesome would it be for the Knicks to go to the lottery and the Suns wind up getting like Okafor or Pavel or someone like that?

That would be just too sweet.

The Dolans of Cablevision, Isiah Thomas and Stephon Marbury....perfect together.

[kg_veteran]

Well, other than the fact that we'd have to play against an even better Suns team, it'd be great.

The East keeps on getting worse, and the West keeps on getting better.

[Big Lo]

theres no guarantee on okafor nor pavel. but there guarantees on marbury and hardaway.

now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q..
14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Big Lo
now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q.. 14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

Is this a little cheap shot at me?

Here is the Suns' roster at the end of the season:

White - Voskuhl
Stoudemire - Lampe
Marion - Cabarkapa
Johnson - Jacobsen
Eisley - Barbosa

That's 10 players under contract.

They're going to have two first round picks, with at least one being a high lottery pick.

They have a ton of cap room to pursue one or more free agents.

Everybody on the bench is young and talented or a tradeable piece (like Voskuhl).

I'll take a core of Stoudemire, Marion, two first round picks, and a premium free agent over the one they had.

The one they had wasn't going anywhere. This one might.

[kg_veteran]

Dan - The Knicks might make the playoffs this year. They probably make it without making the trade. But they're going to have a hell of a time getting past the first round. If making the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs is your definition of success, then perhaps this is a good trade.

And their chances for advancement in the playoffs aren't going to get better with time.

[dirno2000]

That pick won't be a premium pick. If the Knicks don't make the playoffs they'll be pretty close. They could get lucky like Houston although it's not likely.

Actually I hope they do get Pavel, he'll probably suck anyway. Okafor is a different story.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
That pick won't be a premium pick.

You say this, but you don't know it. The Knicks could make the playoffs in the East, heck, they should, but if they don't it's a disastrous move. You can't give up the possibility of getting into the Top 3 on top of giving up a bunch of other stuff.

[Male30Dan]

I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix, but I must say, Phoenix gave away a great role/bench player AND arguably a top 3-5 point guard, (pretty damn hard to come by), for two PG failures, a has-been that MIGHT become 80% of what he once was, some possibilities, some money, and two picks... Sure the picks hurt, and this truly would have been a DAMN GOOD trade for NY were they not thrown in, but come on people... If a team with a terrible cap situation doesnt mind spending the extra dollars, dont knock them for doing it... Look at us for a second will ya... Were we not giving shit to get BETTER players that would hit us harder in the cap expense... Especially if we pay players like Nash and Walker...

All I am saying is they have a potent lineup... A lineup that I would be proud to be a fan of - FINALLY - in NY... Marbury running the show with Houston, Van Horn, Thomas - (both he and Van Horn might still get traded for different talent), and Mutombo - who is a center we are salivating over now fresh from his TEN block performance...

Simply said, they arent terrible, and a post regarding them lottery bound is ridiculous... They WILL make the playoffs this year... They are something like TWO games out of the 8th spot now... Come on everyone... THINK!!! Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

[dirno2000]

I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix

Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

This is the answer to your question.

[Male30Dan]

Unfortunately, I knew the answer prior to posting...

Many Pacer fans hated how things ended when he was there and despise him for his arrogant and conceited ways!!! They also view him as racist and hate him for that... If Thomas was with Phoenix and this trade was made, everyone that is posting Thomas-bashing comments now would be praising NY for gaining such a great amount of talent...

Simple hate for the city and the GM!

[Male30Dan]

So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.

Well that is just it... I am not bashing Phoenix in this trade, just simply trying to help those that are bashing NY to see the light... Phoenix also made a good trade... From their prespective, they knew they were unlikely to REALLY contend anytime soon, so they decided to prepare for the future when some of the West's elite teams will start to struggle again... If you are a Suns fan for the next 20 years, you have to be happy in general for this trade... It sucks now, but you have to know that it gives your team the potential to be REALLY good... But it also gives your team the potential to be lottery bound for many years... Several teams always seem to have a lottery pick... Why do you think that is??? They simply make bad picks, or the very good picks that they thought they had never pan out/get injured/whatever... All I am saying is this is not a bad trade for either team, but for now, which most teams want to play for, it is better for NY in my opinion... It might be better long term if the draft classes are weak or if Phoenix simply picks poor or if McDyess reinjures his knee or a thousand other possibilities like NY pulling off another trade like this one involving Van Horn and Thomas to some other team which will return draft picks and a couple of players...

No one knows the future, but what I do know is that NY didnt get screwed and neither did Phoenix, but both teams got what they wanted, future help for Phoenix that might or might not come and present help for NY which may or may not lead to big things!

[Max Power]

I think New York did better in the trade than Phoenix did but it is not a slam dunk in either direction. Phoenix basically gave up on their team (again) and reloaded for the future (again). New York got a premier player and reloaded with veterans for an immediate playoff run (again). Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

[kg_veteran]

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

I'll be happy to wager with you on that.

I think they're going to have an incredibly difficult time beating Indiana, Detroit, New Jersey or New Orleans.

Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

[WayOutWest]

Originally posted by: Max Power
I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later.

I don't understand the "building for the future" mentality. So many things can happen in a SINGLE season, let alone over several, that it makes that route way too risky.

[Male30Dan]

KG, Honestly, with the talent in the East, the Knicks could make the NBA finals with their talent! Who really knows... Is NJ really that much better than NY???

KIDD VS. MARBURY I would say Kidd, but very close
KITTLES VS. HOUSTON I would say Houston, not very close
JEFFERSON VS. VAN HORN I would say Van Horn, but neither consistently impress
MARTIN VS. THOMAS I would say Martin, not very close
COLLINS VS. MUTOMBO I would say Mutombo, despite age, not very close

They have more talent than you give them credit for... They still have Frank Williams, Penny, and the rest of their roster, (Norris, Doleac, Sweetney, etc...)!

They have simply been underachieving due to an unhealthy roster... They likely WOULD have made the playoffs without this trade due to McDyess being 75 percent or so... But with it, they could REALISTICALY contend with several other teams in the East...

Most people just look at the record and at past performances and write them off, but they have talent...

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

[Male30Dan]

Well again, then you are wrong!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Seriously KG, Do you really think that Detroit, New Jersey, New Orleans, or Indiana are that superior, if at all, to the Knicks... I already showed you the Knicks versus the Nets, in which case NY matched up pretty damn good... Must I show you how they match up against each team... They are talented, and they are beginning to gain talent in the right positions...

By the way... You just let me know the amount you want to put on that wager and you have a bet... Indiana can implode within any series, (hell they may implode before the playoffs)... Detroit is a very hard team to judge... They look like they could be the hard nose great defensive team like they once had there, then they just collapse... And New Orleans hasnt proven anything to me yet... I say let em play, and we will see when its over!

[Jamisonite]

what all of you are failing to realize is that this is just the beginning of a series of moves that NY is going to make. They still have 3 or 4 pgs and they still have plenty of tradeable talent.

[Male30Dan]

Actually some of us have already been preaching that within the 37 threads involving this trade!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

But its ok, no one listens to me!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[OutletPass]

I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Take a Mavs trade as an example:

Had Etan Thomas or Courtney Alexander turned out to be big time players, we wouldn't have been so happy with the acquisition of Juwan. And if we hadn't turned Juwan into Raef And NVE and then into Walker and Jamison, we'd probably like it even less.

Are the Knicks a better team tonight ?
Probably so. Can that team win the East...I don't think so, but we'll just have to see.

Are the Suns a better team in the future.
Probably so...but we'll have to see. If it turns out that Lampe or Milos or either of the 2 draft picks turn out to be big time players; and/or the Suns can get a big FA like Kobe....that will make everyone look at this trade very differently.

So, rather than hammering each other on WHAT IT does tonight, let's sit back and watch.

After all, who would have thought that the Nash draft pick that we gave up would turn out to be the Matrix. That pick could have just as easily turned out to be another Uwe Blab or Jim Farmer. We know, in general, what this trade does for the knicks, but we just have no idea of what it will or won't do for the Suns.

Nice post by KG...and an excellent one by WOW.

Most of the writers have said that this was a very bold but very risky trade by Isiah, and I agree with that. The Suns may have gotten a pony or two at the bottom of all of this.

[madape]

If mediocrity is the goal, the Knicks SCORED!

[Hitman]

The great point guards make their teammates better. They literally "create" chemistry. They know who to find and where to find them. They are encouragers and leaders.

Stephon Marbury does none of these things.

He is out for himself, and no one likes playing with him. You think Houston and Van Horn are going to like playing with this guy?

The Knicks should have kept Lampe, Vujanic, their two # 1 picks and McDyess's expiring contract, if the goal is to win a championship.

Of course, in NY that is not the goal.

[Big Boy Laroux]

the knicks would rather squeeze into the playoffs with the #7 or 8 seed than miss the playoffs so they can actually build for the future. isiah is perfect for the knicks. i hope he drives them into the ground.

[WayOutWest]

One thing I'd like to point out again is that the current expiring contracts would do nothing for the Knicks for the next 3 years. In 3 years is when cap killer Allen Houston's contract expires, nobody is going to trade for AH's contract in the meantime, at which point they can play the FA market.

[madape]

WoW has a point. The Knicks were destined to suck until 2006 even before the trade happened. However, now that they have jettisonned all their draft picks and developing talent, they have ensured their fans that they will suck until at least 2008. Way to go Zeke!

[OutletPass]

Sorry KG, I didn't intend to poop on the party or rain on the parade, I just thought that this particular trade couldn't really be evaluated very well for quite a while. You have to admit, it's not often that we see a trade with so many young guys and draft picks from one side. I'veactually enjoyed this thread a lot...they're have been a lot of good points made by a lot of people...it reminds me of days gone by on this board.

When I see trades like this...my first thought is that it's a "ticket sales " trade....and that's also my second and third thoughts tonight. I still don't think that you trade your way to a championship...I just don't. At least not if that trade is about the best player on your team. And to me, there's no question that Starbury is expected o be the best knick's player.

Just look back at recent NBA history and the dominant championship teams.

SA - both Drob and TD were drafted
Bulls - MJ was drafted
Lakers - Kobe was drafted; Shaq was a FA
Pistons - Isiah was drafted
Celtics - Bird was drafted
Showtime:- Magic was drafted; Kareem came by trade. (Early in his career)

I just tend to think that your best player and (probably) your second best will come by the draft. And Your 3rd, 4th, 5th and others will come by trade or FA or draft. So, if you consider Marbury the best knick now, history would say that he won't lead the Knicks to a ring. The history of a #1 player being traded 3 or 4 times; then leading a team to a ring just isn't there. Knick's ticket sales should go up; their wins should go up some; but, all in all, I'd rather be the Suns in this trade, if rings are the thing.

Dice, Eisley and Ward don't even matter here...Ward is expected to be gone within the week. It's all about cap space to go after Kobe; Milos and Lampe and two picks....and that may or MAY NOT turn into great stuff for the Suns...

But we DO need to wait to find out, sorry !!!

[kg_veteran]

OP - I just enjoy making snap judgments, and you tried to ruin that for me. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Back to the trade, I talked to a friend of mine last night who is a die-hard Knicks fan, and he likes the trade because it makes the team better now. He acknowledges that the team has mortgaged its future, but he says the future was already mortgaged with the Houston contract for the next three years anyway. His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

Interesting points.

[MavKikiNYC]

His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

This is called "denying the problem".

[OutletPass]

With the recently "offensively challenged" rockets ahead of the Knicks, in New York, by 30 with 10 minutes to go in the fourth period, I can only wonder what Knick's fans are saying now...as they're on the way to their worse loss of the year, so far.

[Male30Dan]

And now 7th in the East...

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
And now 7th in the East...

You must be listening to Kevin Frazier and his NBA Fastbreak buddies too much, Dan. They were foaming at the mouth last night over how great the Knicks look now, and I'll ask them the same thing I asked you several weeks ago when I made that bet -- who are the Knicks going to beat to get out of the first round? They can't beat Indiana, New Jersey, Detroit or New Orleans in a series.

Also, I know it's really impressive that the Knicks have now SURGED to four games UNDER .500 (23-27), but how impressive will it be when they go about 3-7 over the next 10? (If you don't believe me, take a look at their schedule.)

Don't believe the hype from the Fastbreak boys, Dan. The Knicks are still a very mediocre team.

[dirno2000]

KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

[kingrex]

Knicks beat the unsinkable Pacers. Nice job knickerbockers, and don't put them in the Lottery yet.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

It's not so much that I'm down on them; I just try to be realistic about them. For some reason, a lot of basketball fans are patently unrealistic when discussing the Knicks.

They have a workable frontcourt rotation with Mutombo, Doleac, Thomas, and Harrington -- I'll agree to that. I'm even a fan of Van Horn's game, and I'll agree that Penny is a solid guy coming off the bench.

Marbury has never elevated his teams to the level of his supposed talent. Sure, he's a great individual player, but he's going to have to prove to me that he can carry a team before I'll believe it.

As for Houston, you really insult Michael Finley when you call Houston the "Finley of the East". People rag on Finley for bad defense; well, Houston makes Fin look like Ron Artest. Houston is one of the most one-dimensional players in the league. At least Fin defends (and works hard on defense) and hits the glass. Houston does one thing and ONLY one thing: shoot.

So they have a decent frontcourt, a good PG who has never taken a team anywhere, and a one-dimensional SG. Forgive me if I'm not singing their praises.

Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

7 Sat @ Miami
8 Sun L.A. Clippers
10 Tue @ Dallas
11 Wed @ New Orleans
17 Tue Detroit
20 Fri Utah
22 Sun Cleveland
24 Tue @ Sacramento
25 Wed @ Phoenix
27 Fri @ L.A. Clippers

I see the Clippers and Cleveland at home as the only sure wins and Dallas, Sacramento, and New Orleans as clear losses. I also don't like their chances in Miami, Phoenix or LAC. Detroit and Utah at home won't exactly be cakewalks.

They'd be extremely lucky to come out of that stretch 5-5.

As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

New Orleans is a veteran squad. Their starting five is better; their bench is better. Sure, it's possible that they could lose, but it's not probable.

New Jersey has had their trouble this season, but they're not going out in the first round. Kidd's too good.

Detroit is another team that's deeper and better than the Knicks.

If you want me to concede that it's "possible" for the Knicks to get to the second round, I suppose I'll have to do that. A lot of stuff is "possible". But it's going to take another team breaking down or beating themselves for the Knicks to get there. They aren't good enough to go and take a series from any of the top 4 teams in the East.

[dirno2000]

KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be. I don’t watch enough Knicks basketball to give a thorough critique of his defense, but the fact that he played under Jeff Van Gundy leads me to believe that Houston’s not just out there running around with is hands at his sides. Like the rest of our stars, Finley has is moments where he has no interest in stopping anybody. He’s a decent defender when he puts his mind to it, just like Houston is. Yes, Allen Houston’s specialty is shooting and he does is as well as just about anybody in the league. And it’s not like he’s Craig Hodges just drifting around the perimeter, waiting for someone to pass him the ball, he can create his own shot. It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be.

It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They're very similar on the offensive end. That's about it. Finley's a much better passer and rebounder. It's amazing to me that Houston gets about 2 1/2 rebounds a game despite playing 37 minutes a game. That's just horrible for a guy 6'6". Neither of them are great defenders, but I'm pretty positive that Finley is universally considered the better defender of the two. And the better player.

They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

Watchable, yes. Good, well, the jury's definitely still out on that.

[Male30Dan]

Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous... I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat... So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous...

I can't remember who I bet with, but if it's so ridiculous, why don't you and I bet on it?

I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat...

So, basically, you're counting on a miracle. That's sound logic.

So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So bet me then.

So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Yeah, that's it. Thomas hatred. It has nothing to do with the reasoning I provided above. Sheesh.

[Male30Dan]

Im not ducking you KG... I just got back to this thread... I put 50 dollars down for the taking if your wallet is as big as your mouth...

Regarding the "counting on a miracle" crap line... Give me a break KG... You made comments saying it couldnt be done, and I threw facts your way... So you assume I am saying WELL IF THEY DID IT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THOSE SORRY KNICKS CAN... Please... They ARE a good team, and if they lose from here on out and dont make the playoffs or win just enough and get knocked out in the first - THEY WILL STILL BE A GOOD TEAM, AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO LAY 50 DOLLARS ON THEM IN FACT MAKING THE SECOND ROUND... Like I said, you will lose anyway!!!

In fact, lets make it 100, such that 50 goes to the board either way, and 50 to the winner!!! Dont ask me to ball up if you dont want your money taken from you like a bully takes a kids lunch money!!!