Antoine Walker --- Employee #8 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

aexchange · 07-04-2005, 11:23 AM

Seems that rumors are floating around that the Rockets are offering Toine the entire MLE.

Thoughts?

Ming
Walker
McGrady
Wesley
Sura

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-04-2005, 11:27 AM

God I hope so. Let him cancer up their team the way he does every other. Walker and Mcgrady would kill each other by mid-season.

DubOverdose · 07-04-2005, 11:31 AM

I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

fin4life · 07-04-2005, 12:17 PM

I am not so sure. I think that Walker might have finally learned his lesson after being with 3 teams in about a year. The guy has the ability to be a very good passer, and is also able to score consistantly in the paint. If Van Gundy can get through to him to tell him not to take outside shots.... he would be a great pickup. 5 Mil for Walker is a pretty good deal IMO.

Then again, he hasnt shown any disipline in his game for his entire career, so why would he start now?

LRB · 07-05-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

madape · 07-06-2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB

Quote:

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

I think Celtic fans would disagree with you there LRB. The man came into Boston this year and really, really, helped them. When he left Boston the first time, the team went into the toilet. I think Mavs fans need to get over themselves with 'Toine. He was a terrible fit here, but the guy can help out the right team, as he's proven in the past.

I don't know if Houston is the right fit or not. In my opinion, they need a good point guard more than anything. But they do need another forward. 'Toine might be the guy. God help us if they pick up Webber.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB

Quote:

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

I think Celtic fans would disagree with you there LRB. The man came into Boston this year and really, really, helped them. When he left Boston the first time, the team went into the toilet. I think Mavs fans need to get over themselves with 'Toine. He was a terrible fit here, but the guy can help out the right team, as he's proven in the past.

I don't know if Houston is the right fit or not. In my opinion, they need a good point guard more than anything. But they do need another forward. 'Toine might be the guy. God help us if they pick up Webber.

Madape, I won't agrue that Walker didn't help Boston, because I feel that he did. I just don't feel that Boston has near the talent to be a legit contender. Walker can help less talented teams, despite his offensive inefficiency. It's talented teams where he takes the ball and shots away from far more talented players that hurts teams. Playing against the overall inferior talent of the east, and on a team will less talent than necessary to be a legit contender for the title, Walker can help. In Houston that will not be the scenario, and IMO Walker would be a huge step backwards for them. Walker is an above average journeyman player who thinks and acts like he's a superstar. Not what you want for you push for a championship. Let him stay in Bean Town and help them make the Leastern Conference finals.

dalmations202 · 07-04-2005, 03:08 PM

The only better thing than #8 being with Houston, is if he was with Phoenix. This would be one of the great moves for the Mavs, expecially if they have nothing to do with it.

Anything taking the ball out of TMac and Yao hands -- that is as inefficient as Walker --- is great news for the Mavs.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2005, 04:32 PM

If any western contender picks up Toine, regardless of what they pay him, I will consider that a good thing for the Mavs.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-04-2005, 04:56 PM

I dunno grndmstr.....we should fear the chicken dance.

chumdawg · 07-04-2005, 07:06 PM

Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.

aexchange · 07-04-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.

what is up with all the end of the world posts? where is the firm pulse on reality here? yes, toine is a nice player. but he's never been able to scale back his game for any team, and i doubt he starts doing it now. any player that the rockets add that is going to take touches away from yao and mcgrady is a good thing as far as i'm concerned.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-04-2005, 09:31 PM

How so? I'd take Juwan Howard over Fatoine any day of the week. At least Juwan is a team player. The second you take the ball out of Mcgrady's hands and put it in Walker's, Mcgrady isn't half the player. Just look what happened with us.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2005, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.

How short our memories are.

Pirate · 07-04-2005, 10:03 PM

"Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture."

What the Rox need from the PF is someone who can stick the 15' jumper, when Yao and T-Mac run the pick n roll. When Juwan did that, they were almost impossible to defend.

Now envision Walker getting one wide open 15 footer after another? Are you REALLY scared? Do you REALLY think that makes Houston a powerhouse? If so, you didnt pay attention in Dallas last year.

DubOverdose · 07-04-2005, 10:30 PM

They'd be better served signing Alan Henderson. He rebounds and defends well and can hit open shots, but doesn't need any touches to put his stamp on the game. He's a great role player that would never take the ball out of TMac or Yaos hands.

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 12:30 AM

Do we not remember how easy the Rockets were to defend when you could make their role players try to beat you?

Do we also not remember how close the Rockets were really were to us in the standings (and in the series)?

I'm just saying, the Rockets desperately needed an infusion on talent. Walker definitely has it. In my mind, this vaults them ahead of us in the rankings, just because they were so very close to begin with and AW is so much better than the other spares they put out there with Yao and McGrady.

It's not the end of the world. It's okay if they are marginally better than us. It doesn't mean we don't have a chance against them. But if we fact them 4-5 again, AW helps them more than he hurts them.

Why the AW hate?

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Why the AW hate?

Cause we all watched him f'up the team 2 years ago. Dumping him on Atlanta was the single biggest reason the Mavs were able to overcome the loss of the eventual MVP to improve their regular season record last year. He's got talent, no question. He should be one of the best role-player types in the league, but the unavoidable reality is that he consistently does such a horrible job of recognizing and playing within his own abilities that even bad teams are better off without him.

rabbitproof · 07-05-2005, 01:20 AM

The Rockets defintely need a PF and are the most two-man reliant team in the league (take away the top two players from every ballclub and Houston is in the gutter) so while AW is nobody's favorite player, it might be a fit. Toine is only going to have a limited number of touches in a JVG system and best believe he won't get more touches then Yao or Tracy. If he can become a third banana (and only a third banana) for them, it's a solid move. Depending on what other moves they make, it could help them play TMac in the backcourt, which is where he ought to be.

AW or not, they could use a truly nasty rebounder/defender in a Reggie Evans/Kelvin Cato mold though.

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Quote:

Why the AW hate?

Cause we all watched him f'up the team 2 years ago. Dumping him on Atlanta was the single biggest reason the Mavs were able to overcome the loss of the eventual MVP to improve their regular season record last year. He's got talent, no question. He should be one of the best role-player types in the league, but the unavoidable reality is that he consistently does such a horrible job of recognizing and playing within his own abilities that even bad teams are better off without him.

You sure it wasn't dumping Antawn Jamison?

Let's not blame AW for that horrendously poor combination of parts that was the '04 Dallas Mavericks.

Maybe it will do Antoine good to...I don't know...play with a center?

TheBlameGame · 07-07-2005, 11:02 PM

We improved our record by a whopping 6 games (and our home record was worse) and Dirk wasn't injured nearly as much last season as he was the year before. He also stepped up his game last season whereas in 2003 he was practically afraid to take it to the basket 95% of the time.

Antoine might not have been a good fit in Dallas (3 players who all need the ball in their hands to be productive had more to do with that then having Walker on this team) but to underestimate him like this is ludicrous.

Chemistry problems, now that is Stephan Marbury. Walker made Boston better and was the only guy to consistently show up for Atlanta every game. For the first half of 2003 (when Walker was allowed to showcase his game due to injuries) Antoine was the one true All Star this team had.

It took Chanuncey Billups 4 different teams to finally show his true potential. You better pray that Houston isn't that team for Walker. If he signs there he will now have a real coach for the first time in his NBA career.

A lot of you are just mad that Walker outplayed Dirk for the first half of 2003 and you refuse to give him credit for anything.
We didn't accomplish anything last season without Walker . I don't see any championship banners hanging above. If getting to the second round of the playoffs was your goal then that doesn't say much.

Dirk the M.V.P folded in the playoffs. Why you are bragging about that while knocking down others?
That makes no sense.

dirno2000 · 07-05-2005, 01:40 AM

Quote:

If the Mavericks don't win a championship, the terrorists win.

Terrorists 1
Humanity 0
-May 21st, 2005 Scoreboard

off topic, but his is by far the funniest sig on the board...I laugh every time I read it...

Hers's an interesting comment from noted Boston homer Bill Simmons...it was in his 2003-2004 NBA preview:
Antoine's best quality doubled as his worst quality: His unwavering belief that he's the best player on the floor in every game. That's fine when you're playing in Boston, but watch what happens in Dallas -- in close games, much like Van Exel did last spring, he'll keep launching shots that should have gone to better scorers.

In retrospect, that sums up the Walker era in Dallas. Houston doesn't need versatility; they need a Kurt Thomas type...a good rebounder who can knock down the open 15-18 footer. Toine wouldn't be a good fit.

I honestly don't know where he would be a good fit because the Celts have a promising young player at his position. For my money, his plight is the most fascinating sub-plot in FA...I'd pay the see the look on his face when he finds out that he has to play for the MLE.

kg_veteran · 07-05-2005, 09:44 AM

I can't wait to see Walker suit up in his Rockets uniform. Adding him to the Rockets doesn't tip the scales in their favor any more than adding him to the Mavericks tipped the scales in Dallas' favor.

fin4life · 07-05-2005, 10:51 AM

Although #8 may not work out, Houston knows that they need a third scorer. Mike James, Bobby Sura, or Jon Barry ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Those kind of guys are options number 5-7 on good teams. If Yao or t-mac are not scoring 25+ each.... they cant win. A guy like Henderson to start at PF will not get it done for them. They need to get 15-18 ppg from their PF night in and night out. Walker is capable of that, but he tends to take it too far.

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 10:46 AM

There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.

Unless...you think they were doing just fine with Ryan Bowen?

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-05-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.

Unless...you think they were doing just fine with Ryan Bowen?

Their starting PF is Juwan Howard. He was just injured during the playoffs.

kg_veteran · 07-05-2005, 10:55 AM

No, I think they would be better off with Juwan Howard than with Walker. Juwan Howard, from what I understand, will be back at PF for the Rockets next year. I don't think Walker is an upgrade over Howard for the Rockets.

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

You sure it wasn't dumping Antawn Jamison?

Well, let's see. Antawn had a net +/- of +2.9 with the Mavs, Antoine had a net +/- of -7.6. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't dumping Jamison.

Quote:

Let's not blame AW for that horrendously poor combination of parts that was the '04 Dallas Mavericks.

No, let's blame him. It was Antoine's unwillingness to play within himself, combined with Nellie's crappy handling of the situation, that were primarily responsible for that team underachieving the way it did.

Quote:

There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.

Houston may have needs at PF, but you're kidding yourself if you think Walker is even close to being a good fit for them. You watched that Houston series. Did you really find yourself sitting there thinking, "man, it's a good thing that team doesn't have a PF who can come in and jack up threes at a 32% clip, shoot midrange jumpers even less efficiently than that, play the roll of resident turnover machine, blow a bunch of layups, and pout on the bench when he gets yanked for sucking. Mavs would really be in trouble then"?

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 12:07 PM

GMC-- Why in the world would Houston be interested in him, do you think?

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2005, 12:13 PM

Mabye because they haven't had him before? I honestly don't know why any contending team would be interested in him.

birdsanctuary · 07-05-2005, 12:28 PM

Great Pick up for the RoX - A VOLUME SHOOTER

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Mabye because they haven't had him before? I honestly don't know why any contending team would be interested in him.

It's hard to imagine they'd be less informed about Walker than any of us would be.

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

It's hard to imagine they'd be less informed about Walker than any of us would be.

Is it hard to imagine that Nellie was less informed about Walker two years ago than we currently are?

Team's make questionable personnel decisions all the time. I'll be happy to change my opinions if the results on the court dictate I should (in fact, that's precisely why I have such a low opinion of Toine now; I wasn't always so dismissive of his value), but hedging on something I'm pretty damn confident about just because somebody makes the counter bet? That's a different story.

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 01:50 PM

Was Walker a +7.1 in his last year with the Celtics, before coming to Dallas?

grndmstr_c · 07-05-2005, 02:26 PM

And then he came to Dallas, to a far superior team where he was handed a starting job and heavy minutes with an opportunity to play with one of his good friends and a pair of guys who would go on to finish first and third in MVP voting the next year, and sucked the life out of the Mavs' season. He then followed that up with a performance so impressive this year that the former all-star who should have been in the prime of his career the last couple years is now going to have to accept the MLE.

What have you done for me lately, Toine?

chumdawg · 07-05-2005, 03:48 PM

I think we can all agree that Dallas was not the best place for Walker to be. Not enough balls to go around here. Not enough power forward positions either. It might be hard on any player to be moved around everywhere from point forward to center in the course of one season.

'Toine just needs to find his niche, that's all. But I think it's safe to say that the situations in Dallas and Houston are so markedly different that if the Employee does indeed wind up there, any analysis of his time here is close to worthless as a predictor of his success or failure there.

kg_veteran · 07-05-2005, 04:14 PM

The situations are very different, and I agree that Antoine needs to find his niche, but I'm not sure that he's going to find his niche with a championship contender. Antoine is an inefficient offensive player and a subpar defender who ends up handling the ball a bunch and taking a lot of shots, wherever he goes. That's not a recipe for success.

madape · 07-05-2005, 05:21 PM

I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

But still, he will help the Rockets. Just think of the series with the Mavericks and replace Scott Pagett and Ryan Bowen's production with a guy who can put up 20/10/6 on any given night.

aexchange · 07-05-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

But still, he will help the Rockets. Just think of the series with the Mavericks and replace Scott Pagett and Ryan Bowen's production with a guy who can put up 20/10/6 on any given night.

yeah i think of the series that takes mcgrady off nowitzki and puts walker on him instead. nowitzki lits the dimwit up for 35 pts a game and the mavs win in 6 games instead of 7. i'd be far more scared of them adding someone like webber than walker. webber has the requisite skills to take houston over the top, walker is a big pile of crap.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-06-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

You know Madape, I was just thinking that. Sacramento just seems like the perfect place for 'Toine in every way. He's certainly nowhere near as good as C-Webb once was, but he's very similar in that he's a versitile scorer, despite being inefficient, and moreover he's an excellent passer. If Sacramento picked up Toine they'd be their old selves again. Sure, they'd still be god-awful defensively, but they'd essentially be the same team they were in previous years. Like the Webber/Vlade tandem, a Walker/Miller frontcourt would average more assists than most backcourts. No, they wouldn't win a championship, but they'd still win a shitload of games and would move the ball better than any team in the league. The only question is if Antoine would get in the way of Peja being "the man" the same way Webber did. As for Houston, I actually think Webber seems like a much better fit for them than does Toine. And as he will probably be waived, it looks like he might be available for a low price. True, they'd be better served with someone like Kurt Thomas, or someone else who can play D, but Webber seems like a very intriguing possibility for them. Abdur Rahim might be a better fit... Although if they had C-Webb, and added Jalen Rose they could get a Fab Five reunion going there.... or not...