John Kerry's Katrina Speech

[kg_veteran]

This speech is set to be delivered this evening by John Kerry at Brown University...

Senator John Kerry's Speech at Brown University
Remarks As Prepared for Delivery

link

Providence, RI - Thank you for your invitation to be here. It’s rare for me to speak at a university like Brown. Usually I don’t speak at a football factory. I want to personally thank those of you who generously lent your efforts to my campaign last year. No one showed more passion than the thousands of students from across the country who knocked on doors, wore out shoes, endured desert heat and arctic cold and probably damaged their GPA's to get out the vote. You did everything, except move to Ohio.

I also want to thank you for what the Brown community has done to help and comfort the many victims of Hurricane Katrina. This horrifying disaster has shown Americans at their best -- and their government at its worst.

And that's what I've come to talk with you about today. The incompetence of Katrina's response is not reserved to a hurricane. There's an enormous gap between Americans' daily expectations and government's daily performance. And the gap is growing between the enduring strength of the American people -- their values, their spirit, their imagination, their ingenuity, and their willingness to serve and sacrifice -- and the shocking weakness of the American government in contending with our country's urgent challenges. On the Gulf Coast during the last two weeks, the depth and breadth of that gap has been exposed for all to see and we have to address it now before it is obscured again by hurricane force spin and deception.

Katrina stripped away any image of competence and exposed to all the true heart and nature of this administration. The truth is that for four and a half years, real life choices have been replaced by ideological agenda, substance replaced by spin, governance second place always to politics. Yes, they can run a good campaign -- I can attest to that -- but America needs more than a campaign. If 12 year-old Boy Scouts can be prepared, Americans have a right to expect the same from their 59 year-old President of the United States.

Katrina reminds us that too often the political contests of our time have been described like football games with color commentary: one team of consultants against another, red states against blue states, Democratic money against Republican money; a contest of height versus hair - sometimes. But the truth is democracy is not a game; we are living precious time each day in a different America than the one we can inhabit if we make different choices.

Today, more than ever, when the path taken last year and four years earlier takes us into a wilderness of missed opportunities -- we need to keep defining the critical choices over and over, offering a direction not taken but still open in the future.

I know the President went on national television last week and accepted responsibility for Washington's poor response to Katrina. That's admirable. And it's a first. As they say, the first step towards recovery is to get out of denial. But don't hold your breath hoping acceptance of responsibility will become a habit for this administration. On the other hand, if they are up to another "accountability moment" they ought to start by admitting one or two of the countless mistakes in conceiving, "selling", planning and executing their war of choice in Iraq.

I obviously don't expect that to happen. And indeed, there's every reason to believe the President finally acted on Katrina and admitted a mistake only because he was held accountable by the press, cornered by events, and compelled by the outrage of the American people, who with their own eyes could see a failure of leadership and its consequences.

Natural and human calamity stripped away the spin machine, creating a rare accountability moment, not just for the Bush administration, but for all of us to take stock of the direction of our country and do what we can to reverse it. That's our job -- to turn this moment from a frenzied expression of guilt into a national reversal of direction. Some try to minimize the moment by labeling it a "blame game" -- but as I’ve said - this is no game and what is at stake is much larger than the incompetent and negligent response to Katrina.

This is about the broader pattern of incompetence and negligence that Katrina exposed, and beyond that, a truly systemic effort to distort and disable the people's government, and devote it to the interests of the privileged and the powerful. It is about the betrayal of trust and abuse of power. And in all the often horrible and sometimes ennobling sights and sounds we've all witnessed over the last two weeks, there's another sound just under the surface: the steady clucking of Administration chickens coming home to roost.

We wouldn't be hearing that sound if the people in Washington running our government had cared to listen in the past.

They didn't listen to the Army Corps of Engineers when they insisted the levees be reinforced.

They didn't listen to the countless experts who warned this exact disaster scenario would happen.

They didn't listen to years of urgent pleading by Louisianans about the consequences of wetlands erosion in the region, which exposed New Orleans and surrounding parishes to ever-greater wind damage and flooding in a hurricane.

They didn't listen when a disaster simulation just last year showed that hundreds of thousands of people would be trapped and have no way to evacuate New Orleans.

They didn't listen to those of us who have long argued that our insane dependence on oil as our principle energy source, and our refusal to invest in more efficient engines, left us one big supply disruption away from skyrocketing gas prices that would ravage family pocketbooks, stall our economy, bankrupt airlines, and leave us even more dependent on foreign countries with deep pockets of petroleum.

They didn't listen when Katrina approached the Gulf and every newspaper in America warned this could be "The Big One" that Louisianans had long dreaded. They didn't even abandon their vacations.

And the rush now to camouflage their misjudgments and inaction with money doesn’t mean they are suddenly listening. It's still politics as usual. The plan they’re designing for the Gulf Coast turns the region into a vast laboratory for right wing ideological experiments. They’re already talking about private school vouchers, abandonment of environmental regulations, abolition of wage standards, subsidies for big industries - and believe it or not yet another big round of tax cuts for the wealthiest among us!

The administration is recycling all their failed policies and shipping them to Louisiana. After four years of ideological excess, these Washington Republicans have a bad hangover -- and they can't think of anything to offer the Gulf Coast but the hair of the dog that bit them.

And amazingly -- or perhaps not given who we’re dealing with -- this massive reconstruction project will be overseen not by a team of experienced city planners or developers, but according to the New York Times, by the Chief of Politics in the White House and Republican Party, none other than Karl Rove -- barring of course that he is indicted for "outing" an undercover CIA intelligence officer.

Katrina is a symbol of all this administration does and doesn't do. Michael Brown -- or Brownie as the President so famously thanked him for doing a heck of a job - Brownie is to Katrina what Paul Bremer is to peace in Iraq; what George Tenet is to slam dunk intelligence; what Paul Wolfowitz is to parades paved with flowers in Baghdad; what Dick Cheney is to visionary energy policy; what Donald Rumsfeld is to basic war planning; what Tom Delay is to ethics; and what George Bush is to “Mission Accomplished” and "Wanted Dead or Alive." The bottom line is simple: The "we'll do whatever it takes" administration doesn't have what it takes to get the job done.

This is the Katrina administration.

It has consistently squandered time, tax dollars, political capital, and even risked American lives on sideshow adventures: A war of choice in Iraq against someone who had nothing to do with 9/11; a full scale presidential assault on Social Security when everyone knows the real crisis is in health care - Medicare and Medicaid. And that's before you get to willful denial on global warming; avoidance on competitiveness; complicity in the loss and refusal of health care to millions.

Americans can and will help compensate for government's incompetence with millions of acts of individual enterprise and charity, as Katrina has shown. But that’s not enough. We must ask tough questions: Will this generosity and compassion last in the absence of strong leadership? Will this Administration only ask for sacrifice in a time of crisis? Has dishonesty in politics degraded our national character to the point that we feel our dues have been paid as citizens with a one-time donation to the Red Cross?

Today, let’s you and I acknowledge what’s really going on in this country. The truth is that this week, as a result of Katrina, many children languishing in shelters are getting vaccinations for the first time. Thousands of adults are seeing a doctor after going without a check-up for years. Illnesses lingering long before Katrina will be treated by a healthcare system that just weeks ago was indifferent, and will soon be indifferent again.

For the rest of the year this nation silently tolerates the injustice of 11 million children and over 30 million adults in desperate need of healthcare. We tolerate a chasm of race and class some would rather pretend does not exist. And ironically, right in the middle of this crisis the Administration quietly admitted that since they took office, six million of our fellow citizens have fallen into poverty. That’s over ten times the evacuated population of New Orleans. Their plight is no less tragic - no less worthy of our compassion and attention. We must demand something simple and humane: healthcare for all those in need - in all years at all times.

This is the real test of Katrina. Will we be satisfied to only do the immediate: care for the victims and rebuild the city? Or will we be inspired to tackle the incompetence that left us so unprepared, and the societal injustice that left so many of the least fortunate waiting and praying on those rooftops?

That’s the unmet challenge we have to face together. Katrina is the background of a new picture we must paint of America. For five years our nation's leaders have painted a picture of America where ignoring the poor has no consequences; no nations are catching up to us; and no pensions are destroyed. Every criticism is rendered unpatriotic. And if you say “War on Terror” enough times, Katrina never happens.

Well, Katrina did happen, and it washed away that coat of paint and revealed the true canvas of America with all its imperfections. Now, we must stop this Administration from again whitewashing the true state of our challenges. We have to paint our own picture - an honest picture with all the optimism we deserve - one that gives people a vision where no one is excluded or ignored. Where leaders are honest about the challenges we face as a nation, and never reserve compassion only for disasters.

Rarely has there been a moment more urgent for Americans to step up and define ourselves again. On the line is a fundamental choice. A choice between a view that says “you’re on your own,” “go it alone,” or “every man for himself.” Or a different view - a different philosophy - a different conviction of governance - a belief that says our great American challenge is one of shared endeavor and shared sacrifice.

Over the next weeks I will address some of these choices in detail - choices about national security, the war in Iraq, making our nation more competitive and committing to energy independence. But it boils down to this. I still believe America’s destiny is to become a living testament to what free human beings can accomplish by acting in unity. That’s easy to dismiss by those who seem to have forgotten we can do more together than just waging war.

But for those who still believe in the great tradition of Americans doing great things together, it’s time we started acting like it. We can never compete with the go-it- alone crowd in appeals to selfishness. We can’t afford to be pale imitations of the other side in playing the ‘what’s in it for me’ game. Instead, it’s time we put our appeals where our hearts are - asking the American people to make our country as strong, prosperous, and big-hearted as we know we can be - every day. It’s time we framed every question - every issue -- not in terms of what’s in it for ‘me,’ but what’s in it for all of us?

And when you ask that simple question - what’s in it for all of us? - the direction not taken in America could not be more clear or compelling.

Instead of allowing a few oil companies to drill their way to windfall profits, it means an America that understands we can’t drill our way to energy independence, we have to invent our way there together.

Instead of making a mockery of the words No Child Left Behind when China and India are graduating tens of thousands more engineers and PhDs than we are, it means an America where college education is affordable and accessible for every child willing to work for it.

Instead of tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, it means an America that makes smart investments in your future like funding the science and research and development that will assure American technological leadership.

Instead of allowing lobbyists to rewrite our environmental laws, it means an America where lakes and rivers and streams are clean enough that when a family takes the kids fishing, it’s actually safe to eat the fish they catch.

Instead of letting a few ideologues get in the way of progress that can make us a stronger and healthier society, it means an America where the biology students here today will do the groundbreaking stem cell research tomorrow.

And instead of stubbornly disregarding intelligence, using force prematurely and shoving our allies aside, it means an America that restores its leadership in the world. An America that meets its responsibility of creating a world where the plagues of our time and future times - from terror to disease to poverty to weapons of mass destruction to the unknown - are overcome by allies united in common cause, and proud to follow American leadership.

That is the direction not taken but still open to us in the future if we answer that simple question - ‘what’s in it for all of us?’ It comes down to the fact that the job of government is to prepare for your future - not ignore it. It should prepare to solve problems - not create them.

This Administration and the Republicans who control Congress give in to special interests and rob future generations. Real leadership stands up to special interests and sets the course for future generations. And the fact is we do face serious challenges as a nation, and if we don’t address them now, we handicap your future. My generation risks failing its obligation of assuring you inherit a safer, stronger America. To turn this around, the greatest challenges must be the starting point. I hope Katrina gives us the courage to face them and the sense of urgency to beat them.

That’s why the next few months are such a critical time. You’ll read about the Katrina investigations and fact-finding missions. You’ll get constant updates on the progress rebuilding New Orleans and new funding for FEMA. Washington becomes a very efficient town once voters start paying attention.

But we can’t let political maneuvering around the current crisis distract people from the gathering, hidden crises - like energy, environment, poverty, healthcare and innovation - that present the greatest threats to our nation’s competitiveness and character. The effort to rebuild New Orleans cannot obscure the need to also rebuild our country.

So realistically, I’m sure you’re wondering: How do I change all this? What can I do? The answer is simple: you have to make your issues the voting issues of this nation. You’re not the first generation to face this challenge.

I remember when you couldn’t even mention environmental issues without a snicker. But then in the 70’s people got tired of seeing the Cuyahoga River catch on fire from all the chemicals. So one day millions of Americans marched. Politicians had no choice but to take notice. Twelve Congressmen were dubbed the Dirty Dozen, and soon after seven were kicked out of office. The floodgates were opened. We got the Clean Air Act, The Clean Water Act and Safe Drinking Water. We created the EPA. The quality of life improved because concerned citizens made their issues matter in elections.

You are citizens in the greatest democracy in the world. Moments like Katrina are so difficult - so painful - but they help you define your service to your fellow citizens. I’ll never forget as a teenager standing in a field in October of 1957 watching the first man made spacecraft streak across the night sky. The conquest, of course, was Soviet - and while not everyone got to see the unmanned craft pass overhead at 18,000 miles per hour that night - before long every American knew the name Sputnik. We knew we had been caught unprepared.

In the uncertain years thereafter, President Kennedy challenged Americans to act on that instinct. He said, "This is a great country, but I think it could be a greater country...the question we have to decide as Americans," he said, is "are we doing enough today?"

Today, every American knows the name Katrina -- and once again we know our government was undeniably unprepared, even as Americans have shown their willingness to sacrifice to make up for it.

But in these uncertain weeks of Katrina's aftermath, we must ask ourselves not just whether a great country can be made greater -- the sacrifice and generosity of Americans these last weeks answered that question with a resounding yes.

No, our challenge is greater - it’s to speak out so loudly that Washington has no choice but to make choices worthy of this great country - choices worthy of the sacrifice of our neighbors in the Gulf Coast and our troops all around the world.

What's in it for all of us? Nothing less than the character of our country - and your future.

[reeds]

WOW- slam dunk if I do say so myself..

cant wait to hear the right wing response to this..how dare that flip flopper comment on this government and who they do things. blah blah blah..of course, if it were Kerry who was running the country at the time of this disaster- the mud would sure be slinging wouldnt it? YES..without a doubt..but bushy can do no wrong

[MavKikiNYC]

On the one hand, I'd like to see Kerry run again as the Democrat nominee, if for nothing more than the sheer tawdry spectacle of it.

On the other hand, I realize that the Democratic party needs an exponentially stronger candidate in order to make a respectable showing, and balance the political tides a little.

Poor John Kerry--Sen. Irrelevant from Massachusetts.

[LRB]

Long on partisan rhetoric and in typical Kerry fashion short on relevant facts. BTW Reeds the only way that this is a slamdunk is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that John Kerry is an idiotic without a lick of common sense. Case in point where Kerry says:

Instead of making a mockery of the words No Child Left Behind when China and India are graduating tens of thousands more engineers and PhDs than we are, it means an America where college education is affordable and accessible for every child willing to work for it.

Of course Kerry fails to mention that the populations of both China and India are several times as large as the US. I wouldn't be surprised if he truely didn't know that. What a doofus.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB
Long on partisan rhetoric and in typical Kerry fashion short on relevant facts. BTW Reeds the only way that this is a slamdunk is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that John Kerry is an idiotic without a lick of common sense. Case in point where Kerry says:

Of course Kerry fails to mention that the populations of both China and India are several times as large as the US. I wouldn't be surprised if he truely didn't know that. What a doofus.

gee, that's an astute comment that completely avoids the point.

college tuition has been increasing many times greater than the inflation rate. over the last decade or so many schools tuition costs have almost doubled. while there are several programs to aid the lower income student who is seeking class mobility through higher education, many more find that the door is closed to them.

remember who decreased the amount of a pell grant? hint: he's still in office...

All in all this is a very well written speech IMO. perhasp a bit to blaming for katrina, but also not pulling the punches on the collateral issues that are dividing this country more and more on economic strata. he's correct with these items:

"Today, let’s you and I acknowledge what’s really going on in this country. The truth is that this week, as a result of Katrina, many children languishing in shelters are getting vaccinations for the first time. Thousands of adults are seeing a doctor after going without a check-up for years. Illnesses lingering long before Katrina will be treated by a healthcare system that just weeks ago was indifferent, and will soon be indifferent again."

"They didn't listen to those of us who have long argued that our insane dependence on oil as our principle energy source, and our refusal to invest in more efficient engines, left us one big supply disruption away from skyrocketing gas prices that would ravage family pocketbooks, stall our economy, bankrupt airlines, and leave us even more dependent on foreign countries with deep pockets of petroleum"

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
college tuition has been increasing many times greater than the inflation rate. over the last decade or so many schools tuition costs have almost doubled. while there are several programs to aid the lower income student who is seeking class mobility through higher education, many more find that the door is closed to them.

The whole thing about everybody going to college is humorous to me, because it's a politician's sort of utopic dream that isn't grounded in reality. Of course, a politician can't acknowledge the reality that we need minimum wage workers and a workforce that is comprised at least in part of "blue collar" people who haven't been to college. We need that because otherwise we wouldn't have fast food restaurants or department stores or tanning salons or auto repair shops or lawn maintenance services or any of the other service-oriented businesses that drive our economy. Politicians can't acknowledge that because they have to promise that "every child that wants a college education will get one."

On the subject of those that DO want to go to college, it seems to me that Stafford loans are available to pretty much anybody. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

All in all this is a very well written speech IMO. perhasp a bit to blaming for katrina

I don't have time to fisk Kerry's speech right now, but "too blaming" is putting it mildly. Hypocritical and devoid of factual basis is probably a better way of putting it.

but also not pulling the punches on the collateral issues that are dividing this country more and more on economic strata. he's correct with these items:

"Today, let’s you and I acknowledge what’s really going on in this country. The truth is that this week, as a result of Katrina, many children languishing in shelters are getting vaccinations for the first time. Thousands of adults are seeing a doctor after going without a check-up for years. Illnesses lingering long before Katrina will be treated by a healthcare system that just weeks ago was indifferent, and will soon be indifferent again."

I had my first physical in about 4 years a couple of months ago. I'm sure quite a lot of people are the same way. I don't see how that's indicative of a problem with our healthcare system.

As for vaccinations, Kerry doesn't explain why those children "languishing in shelters" (what melodramatic language) haven't received vaccinations, so how can we know who to blame?

The whole "illnesses lingering long before Katrina" bit also rings a bit hollow without any specificity to it. Who's getting left out, and why? Have they tried to apply for Medicare or Medicaid? I'm not biting unless he can give some details.

"They didn't listen to those of us who have long argued that our insane dependence on oil as our principle energy source, and our refusal to invest in more efficient engines, left us one big supply disruption away from skyrocketing gas prices that would ravage family pocketbooks, stall our economy, bankrupt airlines, and leave us even more dependent on foreign countries with deep pockets of petroleum"

Who's "they"? So now Kerry is proclaiming that he predicted $3.00/gallon gas? That's pretty funny.

I think it's universally acknowledged that we need to become less dependent on foreign oil, just like it's universally acknowledged that we need to reduce the federal debt. It's just a question of how to get there, which no one can seem to agree upon.

[LRB]

gee, that's an astute comment that completely avoids the point.

Then why did Carey even reference China and India. He's the one who brought them into the conversation.

remember who decreased the amount of a pell grant? hint: he's still in office...

There are plenty of private scholarships to be had, and for those who don't qualify for one then there are student loans and hard work. My wife had to support herself by buying her own clothes, hygene products, entertainment and even school supplies since she in junior high because her family was so poor. Her six brothers and sisters did the same. She was the 1st person in her family to graduate college which she paid for with jobs and loans. If someone wants it bad enough they can get it. There's no reason why they have to have it handed to them on a silver platter.

[Mavdog]

[quote]
Originally posted by: LRB

There are plenty of private scholarships to be had, and for those who don't qualify for one then there are student loans and hard work. My wife had to support herself by buying her own clothes, hygene products, entertainment and even school supplies since she in junior high because her family was so poor. Her six brothers and sisters did the same. She was the 1st person in her family to graduate college which she paid for with jobs and loans. If someone wants it bad enough they can get it. There's no reason why they have to have it handed to them on a silver platter.

there are some private scholarships, many of those go to students of specific categories (such as area of study, or from certain cities/occupations of the parent, etc).

just because your wife was able to accomplish that feat dosn't mean a) that others can and b) that others must travel down the same road.

to describe the poor trying to get live the American dream and obtain a secondary education as wanting to "have it handed to them on a silver platter" is extreme mischaracterzation.

[dude1394]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Mavdog

Originally posted by: LRB

college tuition has been increasing many times greater than the inflation rate. over the last decade or so many schools tuition costs have almost doubled. while there are several programs to aid the lower income student who is seeking class mobility through higher education, many more find that the door is closed to them.

Golly gee wonder why that is? Why should college be increasing faster than inflation? Is it because it's too expensive and therefore less people can go? Or is it because the costs of college have been decoupled from their value? Which is it? So the answer is to decouple them even more and decrease their competence. Then our colleges could be just as incompetent as Canada's medical system.

I know for a <u> FACT </u> that ANYONE can go to college on federal grants and loans, that is a FACT, my son's girlfriend is doing it right now, right now. And that's probably the problem. All students can get into a good state university and they can get either grants or loans to pay for it, not themselves, so there is not incentive to decrease prices nor do the students shop for a cheaper institution UNLESS they ARE actually paying for it.

So what's Kerry's and the democrats solution, more governement money and higher and higher college costs with no market forces to bear. I don't exactly know the answers, I've been mulling it over for a while, but one thing I do know, if you give it away, more people who have no business doing it will go to college and it will continue to escalate while the quality suffers. FACT.

I might say that forcing folks to go to community colleges due to cost may not be that bad an idea.

Or we could do what china and india and japan does. They all take a test and if you get a high number, you go to college, if not tough tittie. Idiot, he doesn't even think.

remember who decreased the amount of a pell grant? hint: he's still in office...

Typical...what would this do other than increase the prices even more with uncle sugar footing the bill. It would make us feel good however.

"Today, let’s you and I acknowledge what’s really going on in this country. The truth is that this week, as a result of Katrina, many children languishing in shelters are getting vaccinations for the first time. Thousands of adults are seeing a doctor after going without a check-up for years. Illnesses lingering long before Katrina will be treated by a healthcare system that just weeks ago was indifferent, and will soon be indifferent again."

As if vaccinations aren't freely given away or heavily subsidized. All these folks had to do was walk up to a clinic. Pandering jerk.

"They didn't listen to those of us who have long argued that our insane dependence on oil as our principle energy source, and our refusal to invest in more efficient engines, left us one big supply disruption away from skyrocketing gas prices that would ravage family pocketbooks, stall our economy, bankrupt airlines, and leave us even more dependent on foreign countries with deep pockets of petroleum"

Even more insanity here. If democrats had the balls they say they do they would have proposed a 3.00 tax on a gallon of gas to discourage it. This is stupidity and even this is just more pandering. Why doesn't 5.00 gasoline prices "ravage family pocketbooks, stall our economy, bankrupt airlines" in europe, but 3.00 gas ravages our country. Idiocy.

thank god again that an insane democrat closet socialist wasn't elected.

--------------

And there are damn good reasons that americans are not going into engineering and physics...They don't PAY AS WELL as other college degrees, lawyers, accountants, business, economists, etc. Medical and other trades.

What point is Kerry even trying to make here?? That less people go into engineering and physics because it is too expensive, it's just a crock of crap, they are making choices (as they always have) on the jobs that are available to them. Damn these socialists just don't understand how a market even works.

[Mavdog]

your assertion is that colleges are expensive because there are too many people attending them?

not a very logical position to take.

[Drbio]

Next we will hear about how sKerry invented the internet with his boy Al Bore.

[reeds]

Right on cue- they dont dissapoint- as always!! too funny...lets bring up the internet shall we? Perfect..you can set a watch to these bogus responses..

"I had my first physical in about 4 years a couple of months ago. I'm sure quite a lot of people are the same way. I don't see how that's indicative of a problem with our healthcare system." ARE you SERIOUS? You are going to compare yourself not getting a freakin physical to the overall health care problem in this country? You not getting a physical is most likely because you dont FEEL like getting a physical- correct? Not because you cannot afford to go to a doctor and you have NO health care- BIG difference!! Wake up people- wake up

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: reeds
"I had my first physical in about 4 years a couple of months ago. I'm sure quite a lot of people are the same way. I don't see how that's indicative of a problem with our healthcare system." ARE you SERIOUS? You are going to compare yourself not getting a freakin physical to the overall health care problem in this country? You not getting a physical is most likely because you dont FEEL like getting a physical- correct? Not because you cannot afford to go to a doctor and you have NO health care- BIG difference!! Wake up people- wake up

Well, you got halfway there.

I didn't compare myself to the "overall health care problem in this country." (Talk about vague.) I made the very specific point that many people don't get physicals because they choose not to get them, not because it is unavailable to them as an option. You've said nothing to refute that. In fact, it sounds like you agree with me.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: reeds
Right on cue- they dont dissapoint- as always!! too funny...lets bring up the internet shall we? Perfect..you can set a watch to these bogus responses..

"I had my first physical in about 4 years a couple of months ago. I'm sure quite a lot of people are the same way. I don't see how that's indicative of a problem with our healthcare system." ARE you SERIOUS? You are going to compare yourself not getting a freakin physical to the overall health care problem in this country? You not getting a physical is most likely because you dont FEEL like getting a physical- correct? Not because you cannot afford to go to a doctor and you have NO health care- BIG difference!! Wake up people- wake up

You missed the whole point Reeds, Kerry didn't include in details about who he was talking about. KG was only pointing out that even he fit into that vague description and pitiful amount of details that Kerry gave in his speech. As for most people in this country there are free clinics that they can go to for health care if they can't afford. There are tons of programs to pay for that. My wife used to work with people full time to make use of these programs. It's not that there isn't health care available, it's that it's too damn complex to use and most people don't know about it. Apparently Kerry doesn't know what he's talking about, which is about status quo for him.

[Drbio]

You can write a dissertation on kerrys bogus speeches. They are worthless and seeing you come in here an laud him like some puppet hero is proof of same.

Thanks for proving me right yet again reeds.

[reeds]

i edited the message- make sure you read it all AGAIN

[Drbio]

Gosh reeds....you get recalibrated by superior mindpower and then go off on some other tangent? Nice use of edit. [img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]


And you totally missed the point.

[kg_veteran]

just because your wife was able to accomplish that feat dosn't mean a) that others can

You're exactly right. Not everybody has what it takes and wants it bad enough to go to college.

Also, if you don't want LRB to use the phrase "handed to them on a silver platter," it would only be fair-minded for you to avoid such sappy phrases as "living the American dream."

But thanks for bringing that up. Not only is it true that not everybody can go to college, but not everybody WANTS to go to college.

For those that want to, if they have the ability, I have yet to hear a compelling argument that they can't find the means.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

You're exactly right. Not everybody has what it takes and wants it bad enough to go to college.

very true. the alternatives don't seem to be portrayed in as good a light, they should.

but then we're a service economy...

Also, if you don't want LRB to use the phrase "handed to them on a silver platter," it would only be fair-minded for you to avoid such sappy phrases as "living the American dream."

the phrase is not applicable. who gets college "handed to them on a silver platter"? there's the money, but there's also the work. some diplomas are pretty cheap (speaking of the effort they took) yet the degree was earned. those who get financial aid don't have it "handed" to them either. they earn it.
quite the watchdog today eh?

For those that want to, if they have the ability, I have yet to hear a compelling argument that they can't find the means.

of course they can find the means if they want it bad enough. i don't understand why getting a secondary education needs to be difficult. is it somehow better to have the student and their family sacrifice to get it?

there's immense good to our country for education to be accessible, and accessible without scarifice IMO.

[LRB]

the phrase is not applicable. who gets college "handed to them on a silver platter"? there's the money, but there's also the work. some diplomas are pretty cheap (speaking of the effort they took) yet the degree was earned. those who get financial aid don't have it "handed" to them either. they earn it.
quite the watchdog today eh?

It's who gets the the money to pay for college handed to them on a silver platter. Big difference. And how pray tell do come to call receiving a handout for being poor "earning it"???? I don't see recieving a handout because you're poor as earning anything other than someone's pity.???

of course they can find the means if they want it bad enough. i don't understand why getting a secondary education needs to be difficult. is it somehow better to have the student and their family sacrifice to get it?

First it isn't the governments job, especially the federal government, to make it easy on everyone. Second, if you have something given to you for no effort on your part, you value it a lot less than when you have to earn it with your own hard work. Too many people already have a sense of entitlement and think that society owes them. They're owed jack squat and the sooner they learn that and get off their lazy behinds, the sooner they'll make something of themselves. Without hardworking and ambitious people this country wouldn't be anything more than a third would want to be. The most important lessons that need to be learned by the poor are hard work, ambition, self reliance, and determination. Giving people the since of entitlement that they're owed an easy route to a college degree does nothing to develop these and actually is considerably harmful.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: LRB

uh, what?
students who come out of lower income households and want to go to college are aided. nobody is "given" anything. if they get the aid, they acheived high enough grades to qualify, grades they earned.

First it isn't the governments job, especially the federal government, to make it easy on everyone. Second, if you have something given to you for no effort on your part, you value it a lot less than when you have to earn it with your own hard work. Too many people already have a sense of entitlement and think that society owes them. They're owed jack squat and the sooner they learn that and get off their lazy behinds, the sooner they'll make something of themselves. Without hardworking and ambitious people this country wouldn't be anything more than a third would want to be. The most important lessons that need to be learned by the poor are hard work, ambition, self reliance, and determination. Giving people the since of entitlement that they're owed an easy route to a college degree does nothing to develop these and actually is considerably harmful.

it is our government's "job" to encourage its pop to progress and improve our country. education is part of that improvement.

i find it difficult to equate a lower income student striving to improve their intellect and job skills to those you describe. like I pointed out, they have earned their opportunity. they are not "lazy" or they wouldn't qualify. they applied "hard work" to graduate from high school with good grades. there's not an "entitlement" but a deserved recognition and award.

did you get that discourse on "hard work, ambition.."et al from an Horatio Alger novel?

[LRB]

there's immense good to our country for education to be accessible, and accessible without scarifice IMO.

Until the lesson is learned that momentary pleasures must be sacrificed to achieve longer lasting rewards, you'll never fully take the poverty out of the poor. They'll always be relying on someone to bail them out of their own stupid and short sighted mistakes.

[dalmations202]

For those that want to, if they have the ability, I have yet to hear a compelling argument that they can't find the means.

.... theirs always the military.......be all that you can be.............. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Got me through, even if I did see some foreign countries a little more closely than I would have liked.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

.... theirs always the military.......be all that you can be.............. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Got me through, even if I did see some foreign countries a little more closely than I would have liked.

Great point, dalm.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Drbio]

I respect that dalm. No excuses....just results. Congrats sir!

[chumdawg]

Frankly, there's a lot of people who have no business going to college. In fact, it does them a disservice to suggest that they are somehow a lesser person if they don't. Because if they gut it out and get that degree, before too long they are going to find out they would have been better off in the long run had they gone to trade school, or taken another route.

And then there's always guys like UPS drivers, who earn upwards of $60K a year, with a full retirement waiting for them at age 55. Or my brother-in-law, who makes $50K a year as a technician at Frito Lay without as much as one college credit hour and who will have a nice retirement package, too.

More than way to live that American dream, that's for sure.

[LRB]

Oh and don't forget that the richest guy in the world was a college dropout. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Drbio]

One should read the post prior to responding. Comprehension is also appreciated.

[dude1394]

I'm attempting to have an intelligent conversation about why colleges inflation rate is many times higher than other costs. I don't quite see how you can say it is so illogical when that's how just about every other service works. Since you are so logical, how about doing something other than pander.

But i'm open to another opinion....any opinion...... Kerry's (and I guess your) opinion is that college inflation rates are high because......?????

Let's see since it can't be because lot's of people want to attend (according to Prof Dog) then is it because LESS people are attending?

Oh I know...It's the oil companies? About as logical as anything he said in that speech.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I'm attempting to have an intelligent conversation about why colleges inflation rate is many times higher than other costs. I don't quite see how you can say it is so illogical when that's how just about every other service works. Since you are so logical, how about doing something other than pander.

But i'm open to another opinion....any opinion...... Kerry's (and I guess your) opinion is that college inflation rates are high because......?????

Let's see since it can't be because lot's of people want to attend (according to Prof Dog) then is it because LESS people are attending?

Oh I know...It's the oil companies? About as logical as anything he said in that speech.

you accuse [me of pander? tsk tsk

It is not due to the demand for spaces as there are unfilled admission slots every year. for demand to increase costs there needs to be a limitatation of supply

second, the more students who attend will spread the fixed costs of the institution over more revenue, allowing for the institution to lower its costs/pupil.

my opinion? the professorial traditions are inefficient. tenure produces complacency. the result is a very high cost structure.

[LRB]

you accuse [me of pander? tsk tsk

It is not due to the demand for spaces as there are unfilled admission slots every year. for demand to increase costs there needs to be a limitatation of supply

second, the more students who attend will spread the fixed costs of the institution over more revenue, allowing for the institution to lower its costs/pupil.

my opinion? the professorial traditions are inefficient. tenure produces complacency. the result is a very high cost structure.

All you have to do is keep uping your prices. If you see no significant difference in demand, you up them again. Repeat until demand decreases. You don't have to be full to capacity to do this. This works in the real world with real people paying for a real service, where I work. It helps though when the customers aren't picking up the check. If I go out to eat on my boss and can choose what I want off the menu, I'll take the lobster and filet mignon over plain sirloin every day even it it's 3 times as expensive, becaue I'm not picking up the bill.

However over all the number of college stundents has been increasing as have the number of educational institutions. Curiously the length of time has been increasing as well. That might be because of uncle sammies handouts.

uh, what?
students who come out of lower income households and want to go to college are aided. nobody is "given" anything. if they get the aid, they acheived high enough grades to qualify, grades they earned.

Umm the grades aren't really required to be all that high, and to keep getting the "aid" all you really need to do is keep passing. They are certainly a great deal less than what an academic scholarship would require. But I think we'll probably have to agree that our definitions of "earn" and greatly different in this circumstance.

[dude1394]

I don't buy it, so your opinion is that the cost will just continue to escalate and the only thing that can be done is guvment subsidizing it or price controls.

I'd like to see the numbers about decreasing or at least stagnant demand. I find it difficult to believe that there is an overabundance of slots. My children did not find this to be true.

[dude1394]

Hmmmm...lets' see now...

educated

Americans More Educated Than Ever

In 2003, over four-fifths (85 percent) of all adults 25 years or older reported they had completed at least high school; over one in four adults (27 percent) had attained at least a bachelor's degree; both measures are all time highs. In 2003, the percentage of the adult population who had completed high school increased for the first time since 2000, when it was 84 percent.

Sounds like Kerry is full of it.




Also doesn't look like the "demand" is slowing down either. Where exactly are you getting your impressions from?

[mcsluggo]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Hmmmm...lets' see now...

educated

Sounds like Kerry is full of it.




Also doesn't look like the "demand" is slowing down either. Where exactly are you getting your impressions from?

This is a seriously flawed graph to infer "demand for higher ed" from.

If the percentage of the young population attending college changed drastically post wwII (which it did) and the old people who weren't "young" post wwII continously die off, then a large portion of what that graph shows is the gradual attrition of the less educated pre wwII population.

if you only had 1 masive shift from 20% going to gollege in 1930 to 70% in 1950 (with no other changes) your graph would look exactly like that, wouldn't it?

[Mavdog]

no, my guess as to why the costs are increasing is how the professors are treated.
IMO it has nothing to do with "subsidies" as you put it.

there are many universities who have open slots every year, there are some who have over a 90% acceptance rate. plenty of positions available.

[LRB]

no, my guess as to why the costs are increasing is how the professors are treated.
IMO it has nothing to do with "subsidies" as you put it.

Personally Doc I don't think that there is a way to intelligently explain the nonsense that Mavdog said about professors and which I've quoted above. I think that the only options that he has are to misdirect and/or follow with some equally opaque answers. What he said makes about as much sense as saying the the high price of gasoline is due to excessive cow flatulence. Although I think a better argument could be made for the latter than the former statement.

[Drbio]

Also doesn't look like the "demand" is slowing down either. Where exactly are you getting your impressions from?

Where do most of his assertions come from? Right out of the old pooper.

[dude1394]

Show me numbers man, show me numbers. The graph shown above says that demand keeps increasing, you are saying that demand is not putting any sort of pressure on prices? I don't understand how you can make this claim, unless you show me a graph.

And it says here that MORE students are receiving financial aid??? So IMO a valuable commodity if being subsidized by the government already and the price goes up higher than inflation.

he Number of Students Receiving Financial Aid Increases
21 Feb 2005

According to the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), more than 63% of students received financial aid during the 2003-2004 academic year, compared to just 55% in 1999-2000. Not only are more students receiving money, but they are receiving more money as well--an average of $1,200 more per year than four years ago.

To conduct this study, NCES polled more than 80,000 undergraduates and 11,000 graduate students. Here are some of the other interesting findings:

* 27% of undergraduate students received Pell Grants
* the average Pell Grant received by full-time students was $3,100
* less than 10% of students received work-study aid
* more than half the students received "free" money and about one-third took out loans

This study has been conducted every three or four years since 1986. For more details, go to http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch.

Tip: If you're like the majority of students and looking for financial aid, be sure to check out Reference Service Press's award-winning financial aid directories for undergraduates or graduate students; you'll find billions of dollars in funding described there.

So the only thing I can derive from this is that kerry want's to socialize education. Another stupid democrat idea. We SEE how well it's done with our public schools. Cost too much for too little.

No thanks, you can keep your socialist hands off our educational system.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Show me numbers man, show me numbers. The graph shown above says that demand keeps increasing, you are saying that demand is not putting any sort of pressure on prices? I don't understand how you can make this claim, unless you show me a graph.

a graph of what are you looking for?

like I said above, the demand will not push pricing up unless there is a limit to supply. there's an example in the top tier schools who have 15% acceptance rates, but the vast majority of schools have open slots available for qualified students.

And it says here that MORE students are receiving financial aid??? So IMO a valuable commodity if being subsidized by the government already and the price goes up higher than inflation.

you have a misconception if you believe that the term "financial aid" means that money is given to students without any of it being repaid. many take loans and partial scholarships.

So the only thing I can derive from this is that kerry want's to socialize education. Another stupid democrat idea. We SEE how well it's done with our public schools. Cost too much for too little.

No thanks, you can keep your socialist hands off our educational system.

uh, dude, the vast majority of colleges are public (state) institutions. they are already "socialized".

[dude1394]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Mavdog

but the vast majority of schools have open slots available for qualified students.

THIS..THIS...THIS.... what are the percentage of open slots available for qualified students.

you have a misconception if you believe that the term "financial aid" means that money is given to students without any of it being repaid. many take loans and partial scholarships.

SO what? Financial Aid is financial Aid. The "purpose" is to enable people to go to school, which more are that ever before.

uh, dude, the vast majority of colleges are public (state) institutions. they are already "socialized".

Semantics...guvment isn't paying the tuition for students. Sure they are run by the states but they are not "socialized".