Have Cuban and Donnies Moves turned our team from Champions to Average? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirk2003 · 11-14-2008, 07:27 AM

Lets discuss this..

Basically it comes down to this:

Would we have been champions in 2006 with Steve Cash on our team?

I think we would.

Which to means that Cuban's stubbornness cost us a championship.

cinemablend · 11-14-2008, 07:30 AM

Hadn't really thought of it that way.

I don't think it's that simple.

If we'd had Steve Nash on our team in 2006, we would not have had some other players, like Jason Terry who contributed to the run.

So it's not like saying you'd have the 2006 Mavs plus Nash. You wouldn't.

nowhereman · 11-14-2008, 10:01 AM

remember we beat san antonio largely because of devin harris. you really think a nash/terry backcourt could have handled a manu/parker backcourt?

we would have lost that series in 5 games.

antoinewalker · 11-14-2008, 11:44 AM

steve nash wouldn't have stopped dwayne wade so no, we wouldn't have been champions with nash. nowhereman brings up a good point. we probably wouldn't have even reached the finals with nash.

LonghornDub · 11-14-2008, 01:28 PM

We lose to SA in the 2006 playoffs with Nash. On the other hand, we almost certainly would have made the WCF in 2005 with Nash (where we would have likely lost to SA).

fluid.forty.one · 11-14-2008, 03:10 PM

what a great thread full of fresh ideas

Dtownsfinest · 11-14-2008, 03:24 PM

With Nash we wouldn't have gotten to the finals. Harris and Diop were beasts that year. With Nash in the finals I like our chances. But I can't say that we beat the Spurs without Devin. We damn near lost that series anyway had Manu not had a brainfart. Harris was a huge reason for us even being there in the first place. Devin Harris was basically beatin' the Spurs at their own game. He was Tony Parker.

mavsfan1000 · 11-14-2008, 03:27 PM

We got a horrible gm or owner that traded a young and talented Harris for an over the hill Kidd. We resign an over the hill Stackhouse. Get rid of Daniels for nothing. Overpay Damp and Diop. This team is done now thanks to all these bad decisions.

fluid.forty.one · 11-14-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

We got a horrible gm or owner that traded a young and talented Harris for an over the hill Kidd. We resign an over the hill Stackhouse. Get rid of Daniels for nothing. Overpay Damp and Diop. This team is done now thanks to all these bad decisions.

For the last time, Kidd is the least of our problems right now. Have you even watched any of the games? Kidd is the best Mav on the floor at the moment.

Dtownsfinest · 11-14-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

For the last time, Kidd is the least of our problems right now. Have you even watched any of the games? Kidd is the best Mav on the floor at the moment.

I agree with you but in the 4th quarter of games Jason Kidd might as well be Josh Howard. He's been really poor lately. Not to take away from his play because he's a triple double risk every night. But he really causes problems with his scoring. Teams don't guard him in the 4th. Then you have Damp out there....its basically 5 on 3 and Dirk right now can't even buy a bucket. Its not even shocking that this team can't close out quarters.

mavsfan1000 · 11-14-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

For the last time, Kidd is the least of our problems right now. Have you even watched any of the games? Kidd is the best Mav on the floor at the moment.

What a coincidence that this team started to suck once Kidd became a part of it. I miss the days when we had a point guard that could attack the basket. Gerald Green was great to see but he obviously does not perform consisntently.

Dirkenstien · 11-14-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

What a coincidence that this team started to suck once Kidd became a part of it. I miss the days when we had a point guard that could attack the basket. Gerald Green was great to see but he obviously does not perform consisntently.

This team began underperforming and melting down WAY before Kidd came here. Don't blame this on Kidd just because he's the only significant move the front office has made. Talent-wise Kidd is still a no brainer, the only part of that trade that hurts is the draft pick but really that's it.

mavsfan1000 · 11-14-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

This team began underperforming and melting down WAY before Kidd came here. Don't blame this on Kidd just because he's the only significant move the front office has made. Talent-wise Kidd is still a no brainer, the only part of that trade that hurts is the draft pick but really that's it.

Man Kidd can never get blamed. Yet he continues to be a part of this losing team. He can't guard quick point guards and can't attack the basket. We are basically playing 3 on 5 since the trade with Terry being a liability on defense at the 2. Dallas made such a huge mistake.

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

What a coincidence that this team started to suck once Kidd became a part of it. I miss the days when we had a point guard that could attack the basket. Gerald Green was great to see but he obviously does not perform consisntently.

If Devin is the freaking savior how did he let us get destroyed by GS? Or the Finals loss? Or does he not get any of the blame for those.

Just to be clear.. it's because of Devin we were good, but Devin had nothing to do with it when we were bad?

Kidd is playing great. The trade might have been a bust because Devin would be better to have in future years, but the first 9 games of this season Kidd has played wonderfully. It's ridiculous to say that if we switch Kidd-Harris for these first 9 games then we automatically win. Especially since Devin missed like 3 games.

These losses have been on Dirk, Terry and the Defense.

oh and btw.. you guys are extremely underrating Kidd's defense. Most of the problems are coming from, again, Dirk and Terry.

Tokey41 · 11-15-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

If Devin is the freaking savior how did he let us get destroyed by GS? Or the Finals loss? Or does he not get any of the blame for those.

Harris doesn't get blamed for the GSW loss because it was Avery's fault. For example, not playing Damp and conforming to Nellie ball style? What kind of moron coaches his way to a 67 win season and suddenly decides to change HIS teams game plan to suit the style of his opponents?

I'd say Avery was about 90% of the problem in the GSW series. The other 10% was the team itself, but I think if they had just stuck to what they were doing all season they wouldn't have looked so horrible.

I doubt we'd be doing any better with Harris record wise right now, BUT we would still have that younger talent and draft picks. It would sure make it a lot easier for us to rebuild if things worked out that way. I'm concerned how we're going to pull together a contender with what we've compiled, Dirk is going to have to net in something extraordinary and that's if we trade him while teams are still willing to part with prime talent.

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2008, 04:17 PM

As great as Nash was, the outcome would have been no different. Look at the teams whom you must get past to get to the playoffs in the west. Let's start with the Spurs. That team must have Parker and Gino to go all the way as well Duncan. Parker and Gino makes Duncan look like Wilt. Parker is under rated. How many stop him or slow him? Parker could not believe his eyes when he met up with Harris. He had no answer because Harris was as quick or quicker than him. Harris made Parker play defense and Parker had no answer for Harris on offense as he would charge over Harris. Not many do this to Parker in the nba. The Spurs was a huge winner when we got of Harris.

Phx. Nash has bad probs when he meets a very quick and fast pg. A guy like Parker. Nash will always be good on ast and even scorring but he will never be able to stop or slow down a good to great fast pg in semi finals or finals in west. Harris was a bad match up for Nash.

Hornets. Paul has the quickness of Parker and Harris. He is a great passer like Nash.He can drive like Parker and make layups from all kinds of angles. If no one can slow Paul, you are going to lose. I am speaking of a series in the playoffs on all these teams. Not one game because in a one game regular season, Phx is as good as anyone. They can't win in playoffs.

Williams in Utah. Now here is another guy we won't be able to contain or slow up. We are beat because of another good pg. End of story.

Billups in Denver. Now another team has just passed us because we will never be able to guard Billups. They needed a pg. They was the worse 3 pt shooting team in nba or one of worst. They couldn't pass and they all wanted to shoot bombs. They needed an inside game, a pg that could control them and a pg that could make a 3. This doesn't make them win the west but they make the playoffs and we don't.

Lakers. Simply to good for us. Inside we have no answer. Count Kobe as the pg and we have no answer and we make Kobe play no defense. He has fun playing us. Not with Harris because Harris was a Tony Parker and he made all 5 guys try to defend him going for a layup. You must make the Lakers work on defense.

Rockets. They have two very good to great players in Ming and McGrady that get hurt and they do not finish in big games or big series for all the marbles. They now have one of the very best big time players, finishers, 4th q players in the nba. Artest. We can never beat them in a series.

We will also have big time probs with gs, portland, and maybe even with Sac. If you want the truth, we suck. The problem was not Harris. He was our ticket to the finals. He was Tony Parker. He was young and needed to be fine tuned. Then we needed a good sg. A tall one that could play defense and was athletic. Then we needed a starter paint man or an off the bench paint man and deeper bench. We was that close to a nba title and we had players and time to work with. I am sorry, we are done now. Who in the world would trade great young players for Kidd? Kidd will retire sooner than later. Kidd was not going to help us, he was like Harris and had no sg on the Dallas team and he had no inside men to dish the ball to. We never fixed that.

Josh has hurt his trade value now as where he was one of the most sought after in the nba but not now. Dirk is losing clout everyday. No one is chomping at the bits wanting Diop, Damp and Terry. Stackhouse is getting like Eddie Jones or maybe worse. I hope for the best for the Mavs because i watch them and pull for them but i must tell the truth. This season is going to be real ugly. We will either keep this same team and not make the playoffs and get a draft pick or we will trade players for run and gun players that can play with Kidd running. Kidd was one of the greatest but the pg was not the problem for this team and with losing Harris, we lost a good trade piece in him or lost a guy that brings down the west in his quickness, steals. We have no trade pieces anymore. Dirk is about it and his stock is down.

We traded down and we did not address any probs we had. The west traded and drafted up and most of the west got deeper on the bench. The bench and old is even a prob with Phx and Spurs. This will be a bad and very long season and not because any one player or players on this team but management of them making the wrong trade, not addressing a good sg, inside scorrer, backup pg and a bench. They have had a few years to do this and they chose not to.

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2008, 04:52 PM

In the 4th q, Harris started making teams pay dearly. You must play off him and Parker because they are going for layups in the 4th and they make teams foul you. So Parker and Harris started burying outside shots, this made them unguardable. Now they are double teamed and this opens up Terry, Dirk and even Damp for a dunk. That is gone now. We must run all game and space the floor. The nba tries toplay defense in the 4th and make the last q stand still. We suck at a stand still game. We have no penetraters.

The good teams in the west do. Lebron and Kobe becomes the penetrater in the 4th. It is no easy fix and our probs will not be fixed with a quick trade and will take time to rebuild. It is sad as it would have been nice to have seen Kidd and Dirk win a title and maybe Dirk will ask for a trade as well with Kidd. Kidd doesn't have long.

You are right as it is like 5 on 3 in the 4th. Damp 18 rebounds and 16 points and we can't win. Not good. We are also falling back to where we can't guard outside players and guards. Just like Gordon killed us. No easy answer is going to help us because it has now went from minor tweaks helping us to now needing major players to help us.

twosauce · 11-14-2008, 05:23 PM

We could have been better with Nash., but that doesnt take away the fact of how far the refs had their heads up dwayne wade and shaqs ass'. Wade would be dribbling the ball across the center court line with no one but 3 ft away from him, and they would call a reaching in foul.

FreshJive · 11-14-2008, 05:56 PM

Nash was still here when we drafted Harris. Harris was to be Nash's backup according to Donnie, so that we could rest Steve throughout the season. So the "Devin beat SA" argument doesn't fly.

Also, the trade for Damp was still entirely possible under the rules even with a signed Nash, and Toine for Terry seems like a no brainer to me even with Nash still here, because Devin was still uncertain, and we needed a replacement bench scorer to fill Nick's role.

xavier · 11-14-2008, 06:27 PM

Kidd isn't the problem
wake up

Tokey41 · 11-14-2008, 07:03 PM

Nash on this team creates far too many variables to consider between then and now. Would we have traded Jamison? Walker? Signed who we signed? Would Nellie still be around? I would have loved to have kept Nash in a Mavs uniform, but it didn't turn out so bad after he left... Dirk turned into the man, we won 67 games, and made a finals appearance. Can you pinpoint when the franchise took a turn for the worse? In my opinion it happened when we messed with success by overreacting to a first round loss and significant upgrades from western rivals. I still have a hard time figuring out how you blow up a 67 win team when its CLEARLY the coaches fault that they lost in the first round of the playoffs!? It had nothing to do with talent, if they were good enough to make it to the finals and go up 2-0 before they may have been good enough to win it with another chance.

As for Kidd not being the problem... he's not the solution either, and that IS the problem.

If we aren't winning a title with him the trade was a failure. We would have been better off keeping our young point guard and draft picks, trading Dirk for a young cornerstone (as suggested in a trade thread Beasley makes sense), shedding salary, and reloading for another run in the near future. A core of Harris, Howard, Diop, Green, and Beasley (plus whatever else Dirk brings in) would be a pretty decent young group of talent. It's not that bad though, considering Kidd and Stackhouse are massive cap relief after this year... it's just not as good as what we COULD have had to work with.

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2008, 09:16 PM

Tokey41, you are right on with your post. I was hoping we could do it with Harris and keeping Dirk and adding a couple pieces in the off season. We was small with Terry and Harris but no one could stop Harris attacking and he could kick out to Dirk, Howard or Terry and Terry was good with him. It was that we were just small at guards but we was also hard to guard.

I wanted to trade Dirk in the last resort but now we are pretty screwed because Dirk is the only player that has trade power on our team. I am afraid it is going to take us a few years for us to rebuild or we can just stay the same and hope to be maybe a 500 team. The problem is many teams in the west are getting good. I am not sure where we go from here.

FreshJive · 11-14-2008, 10:47 PM

"Would we have traded Jamison?"
Yes. It had already happened and Harris had already been drafted with the pick before Nash left.

"Walker?"
Yes. No way he returned in a Mavs uniform. Trading his expiring was the plan all along.

Tokey41 · 11-15-2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

"Would we have traded Jamison?"
Yes. It had already happened and Harris had already been drafted with the pick before Nash left.

"Walker?"
Yes. No way he returned in a Mavs uniform. Trading his expiring was the plan all along.

But perhaps they knew they weren't keeping Nash so they drafted Harris. What if they intended to sign him? We may have drafted Igoudala instead. Nash/Igoudala/Howard/Dirk/Damp-Diop. *Sigh*

As for Walker, the Terry trade was an absolute steal but i'm sure we could have found something else for our team. We already had all the basics covered and an intimidating starting 5... maybe a post player of some sort and we would have been golden.

FreshJive · 11-16-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

But perhaps they knew they weren't keeping Nash so they drafted Harris. What if they intended to sign him? We may have drafted Igoudala instead. Nash/Igoudala/Howard/Dirk/Damp-Diop. *Sigh*

As for Walker, the Terry trade was an absolute steal but i'm sure we could have found something else for our team. We already had all the basics covered and an intimidating starting 5... maybe a post player of some sort and we would have been golden.

Sorry this is a little late.

Perhaps you weren't paying attention back then, but when they drafted Harris the intention was to sign Nash. They made Nash a pretty substantial offer, and when he left the Nelson's were floored. Cuban did not expect Nash to get such a big offer. All offseason they had been saying backup PG, backup PG, we need a backup PG. When they drafted Harris Donnie said "we got our backup PG".

As for Walker they had been shopping him all summer and the Terry offer was the only good one they had out there, and the summer was drawing to a close. I think we still make that trade.

Tokey41 · 11-16-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Sorry this is a little late.

Perhaps you weren't paying attention back then, but when they drafted Harris the intention was to sign Nash. They made Nash a pretty substantial offer, and when he left the Nelson's were floored. Cuban did not expect Nash to get such a big offer. All offseason they had been saying backup PG, backup PG, we need a backup PG. When they drafted Harris Donnie said "we got our backup PG".

As for Walker they had been shopping him all summer and the Terry offer was the only good one they had out there, and the summer was drawing to a close. I think we still make that trade.

Yeah I don't recall them stating that, but even if they did who knows if we should believe them? A substantial offer though? Nash's deal seems like a pretty bargin price, but I guess that's after considering his amazing MVP seasons in Phoenix. Our front office really keeps the inner workings to themselves if they can help it. I think in Cuban's mind he knew the offer wouldn't be enough, but if it were, his mindset would have been to win right now. Having a rookie PG on the bench wouldn't have been as nice as a rookie SG with decent size or a low post presence/center in general (no Damp here).

The Terry trade was a flat out steal. I think we would have done it too, but perhaps given the needs of the team had Nash resigned we may have found a different offer to fill a team need.

Usually Lurkin · 11-16-2008, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Yeah I don't recall them stating that, but even if they did who knows if we should believe them? A substantial offer though? Nash's deal seems like a pretty bargin price, but I guess that's after considering his amazing MVP seasons in Phoenix. Our front office really keeps the inner workings to themselves if they can help it. I think in Cuban's mind he knew the offer wouldn't be enough, but if it were, his mindset would have been to win right now. Having a rookie PG on the bench wouldn't have been as nice as a rookie SG with decent size or a low post presence/center in general (no Damp here).

The Terry trade was a flat out steal. I think we would have done it too, but perhaps given the needs of the team had Nash resigned we may have found a different offer to fill a team need.

no one thought it was a bargain at the time. Everyone thought that the Suns were overpaying, and best case projections were that he'd help them sell some tickets that would make up for the big payout. But if I remember right, Nash and Cuban and the agents and the public record all said it was a more a matter of length of contract than it was about the total dollars. (the mavs wanted a backup pg because they thought that Nash the old man would be breaking down soon) I don't remember either the $$ or the length, so I don't know how to reconcile those two points of view. I do remember Nash saying something like he was going to work harder than ever, just to show Cuban that he was worth the contract - to which I and a couple others around here asked, "Why weren't you working that hard while you were a Mav, Steve Cash??"

Zki41 · 11-14-2008, 11:10 PM

Yes they did.

Mavs Rule · 11-14-2008, 11:21 PM

Average would be nice at this point, but we are beyond average.

mav4ever · 11-14-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

This team began underperforming and melting down WAY before Kidd came here.

ya, underperforming,,,,,,

heres how they were "underperforming"

the mavs were tied for second in the west with the suns.(suns were in 1st when they pulled the shaq trade)

they were each 1 game behind n.o.

they were 3 games ahead of the spurs and lakers who were each 4 games behind n.o.

in devin harris' last 10 games with the mavs they went 9-1

and in his last 15 games they only lost 4 (including the one they lost where he got hurt)

in that last 15 game stretch they beat the following teams:

lakers (absolutlely killed them on their floor by 20+pts)
detroit (another blowout)
suns
rockets
hornets (ya, remember that chris paul guy?)
jazz
spurs

yes, beat them all.

check it out for yourself.

not to quick on the old uptake huh dirkenstien?

and by the way, the draft picks are protected if they are lottery picks. something tells me they will be.

Tokey41 · 11-15-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav4ever

ya, underperforming,,,,,,

heres how they were "underperforming"

the mavs were tied for second in the west with the suns.(suns were in 1st when they pulled the shaq trade)

they were each 1 game behind n.o.

they were 3 games ahead of the spurs and lakers who were each 4 games behind n.o.

in devin harris' last 10 games with the mavs they went 9-1

and in his last 15 games they only lost 4 (including the one they lost where he got hurt)

in that last 15 game stretch they beat the following teams:

lakers (absolutlely killed them on their floor by 20+pts)
detroit (another blowout)
suns
rockets
hornets (ya, remember that chris paul guy?)
jazz
spurs

yes, beat them all.

check it out for yourself.

not to quick on the old uptake huh dirkenstien?

and by the way, the draft picks are protected if they are lottery picks. something tells me they will be.

You need rep. Underperforming my ass.

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav4ever

in that last 15 game stretch they beat the following teams:

lakers (absolutlely killed them on their floor by 20+pts)
detroit (another blowout)
suns
rockets
hornets (ya, remember that chris paul guy?)
jazz
spurs

yes, beat them all.

check it out for yourself.

Uh, this is completely inaccurate. If you're going to try and make an argument, don't outright lie to people.

First of all, the Mavs didn't beat the Lakers on the Lakers floor at all last year. The Mavs went 1-3 against the Lakers last year, winning the one game at HOME by 7 points. By the way, that was before the Gasol trade. The Lakers starting lineup that night included Kwame Brown and Luke Walton. Really top notch.

Second, the Mavs also went 1-3 against the Spurs last year, with the 1 win coming on November 15th (at home), which was well before Devin's last 15 games with the team. They did not beat the Spurs during his last 15 games with the team. In fact, the Mavs LOST a December game in SA with Harris starting, and Tim Duncan didn't even play in that game. Devin went 2-11, and the Mavs lost 95-97 when Dirk missed a 3 at the end to win.

They did beat the Pistons (at home), the Rockets, the Jazz by 8 (at home), the Suns by 3 (at Home), and the Hornets by 9 once (at home). However, in that same stretch, they also lost to the Hornets in OT. Chris Paul (you remember him, right?) had 33 points, 12 assists, and 9 rebounds going up against Mr. Harris. Meanwhile, Devin managed a stellar 8 points on 3/10 shooting, and 5 whole assists.

Oh, and you neglected to mention the embarrassing loss in Sacto where the Mavs gave up 122 points (with Devin playing), and getting manhandled twice by the Wizards (with Devin playing both times).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...008_games.html

Silk Smoov · 11-15-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Uh, this is completely inaccurate. If you're going to try and make an argument, don't outright lie to people.

First of all, the Mavs didn't beat the Lakers on the Lakers floor at all last year. The Mavs went 1-3 against the Lakers last year, winning the one game at HOME by 7 points. By the way, that was before the Gasol trade. The Lakers starting lineup that night included Kwame Brown and Luke Walton. Really top notch.

Second, the Mavs also went 1-3 against the Spurs last year, with the 1 win coming on November 15th (at home), which was well before Devin's last 15 games with the team. They did not beat the Spurs during his last 15 games with the team. In fact, the Mavs LOST a December game in SA with Harris starting, and Tim Duncan didn't even play in that game. Devin went 2-11, and the Mavs lost 95-97 when Dirk missed a 3 at the end to win.

They did beat the Pistons (at home), the Rockets, the Jazz by 8 (at home), the Suns by 3 (at Home), and the Hornets by 9 once (at home). However, in that same stretch, they also lost to the Hornets in OT. Chris Paul (you remember him, right?) had 33 points, 12 assists, and 9 rebounds going up against Mr. Harris. Meanwhile, Devin managed a stellar 8 points on 3/10 shooting, and 5 whole assists.

Oh, and you neglected to mention the embarrassing loss in Sacto where the Mavs gave up 122 points (with Devin playing), and getting manhandled twice by the Wizards (with Devin playing both times).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...008_games.html

Will someone please put that picture up that said Oh no he didn't.

Let me add, that Dirk was having a bad year with Devin as well and Dirk got upset with Harris and blasted him during the game at times. Harris and Dirk were not getting along on the court. Harris had to go. IMO

mav4ever · 11-15-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Uh, this is completely inaccurate. If you're going to try and make an argument, don't outright lie to people.

ok, my memory isnt what it used to be (or im an outright liar)

thanks for the cool database though.

particleman · 11-14-2008, 11:45 PM

Kidd isn't necessarily the PROBLEM... We just don't match up as well against the better teams with him. Tony Parker even said after the trade that he was ecstatic that Harris was gone. No way in hell are we ever ever ever stopping players like Chris Paul or Deron Williams or Tony Parker in a 7 game series with the team we have now. Devin Harris, for all his faults, is one of the best perimeter defenders among PGs. And he could actually get to the basket in the 4th quarter, which would make him the ONLY player on our team who could do that, if he were still around. We were, what, 35-17? when the Devin Harris trade was made, and struggling because he was injured. Everyone knows our history since the trade. I just don't understand how you can still say that the trade helped us in any way.

Blah... I guess what I'm getting at is that just because Jason Kidd is playing well doesn't mean it was a good trade! If you want to argue in favor of the trade, show me some evidence that this team is better off for having made the trade. Otherwise, your argument is irrelevant.

**Edit**
Couldn't agree more with mav4ever's post. Except that the 2010 pick is NOT lottery protected. So...yeah...we've also got that going for us.

mavsfan1000 · 11-15-2008, 12:50 AM

It's just not right for Dallas to have a good slasher on this team. We must trade Harris. Why not trade Green as well since he can slash? We need a team full of jump shooters who can't penetrate. Way to go Cuban. Btw when the game slows down in the 4th quarter, Kidd is useless. Harris on the other hand is still dangerous because of his explosiveness and penetration ability. Drive and dish is the secret to end of games.

Janett_Reno · 11-15-2008, 01:12 AM

We don't play good defense anymore, like the old Mavs. We have no one that can penetrate the ball in half court except Howard but he doesn't like playing the 4th quarter. Orlando shot alot more free throws than we do but why? Because we stop post play by hacking and fouling because we play bad defense. We do not drive the ball and in the 4th q. It is about defense, post play, ft's and most of all half court penetration.

We needed a sg that was athletic, we needed a post player on offense that started or off the bench and maybe a back up pg. Now look what we need. A complete over haul. This team now can't be fixed by minor tweaks because it has major flaws. We have alot less trade power and not as near as much money. We spent more to get less.

As far as Terry at the time, we had no pg when Nash left. I forget the guy Nelson was trying to play and was a veteran but he was terrible. We got Terry and he did good.

Mistakes we made was we never addressed getting an athletic shooting guard, we never got a physical post player that could play offense and this could have been a erson off the bench, and then just adding a deeper bench and maybe a backup pg. These pieces would not have been all that hard to get. Then when we traded Harris, that was the end. Now we still need all those pieces i just mentioned, now you have only Howard that can penetrate in half court and Howard doesn't like playing the 4th. Harris liked to and he was another penetrater. Now you do not have defense at pg. You lose ft attempts because people had to foul Harris to slow him, like Parker. Now teams do not have to double team anyone on our team. We got older.

In half court, Terry and Dirk are best with someone penetrating and dishing to them. Dirk and Terry is not good at creating their own shot. They need some space and then they are deadly. They would be good playing with Williams at Utah, Harris in NJ, Parker in SA, Billups in Denver, Nash in Phx, Paul in New Orleans. They need a pg that can penetrate in half court and especially in the 4th q. Kobe and Lebron make all their team mates so much better because they can penetrate and it leaves them open. We don't have this and especially in the 4th. The 4th is a half court game and we suck in half court. The other way you can win without penetration in the 4th is keep dumping down to your big man in the post and let him score. We don't have one of these. We have defensive post players but i must say Dampier has been doing good.

It was not Harris or Kidds fault or even Nash's. It was that the organazation never addressed our minor tweaks and positions we needing filling. Then they made a boner trade and ruined us for years to come. Now a guy like Stackhouse is done and met the Eddie Jones status. Howard is a mystery now on what he would bring. If he drives and if he would play the whole game, it is no telling how good he could be. It is probably teams that would take a chance and give up a very good player or players for him but if Dallas screws up again, then they have not one person that can penetrate the ball in half court if Howard is gone and we get duds in return.

Janett_Reno · 11-15-2008, 01:37 AM

Now Harris probably can't keep this up but he is shooting 11 ft attempts a game this year. He makes 9 of them. This is 9 free points per game and it shows, no one can guard him if he penetrates. You foul him to stop him. Kobe shoots 8 free throws per game this year. Paul shoots 8. Jason Kidd shoots 1 ft a game.

Harris was a better fit for our team because we have no penetraters. Avery wanted us to play like the Spurs in a half court team, pick your times to run and play full court, play big time defense. No matter what coach it is, in the nba, the last q is mostly half court. We have no team in the 4th now. Harris would bring alot more trade than Kidd.

Now do we want to trade our team for running players like we use to play and forget defense? I wouldn't because how many more years does Kidd have left? How do you play half court offense in the 4th with this team when no one can drive the ball on this team in half court? Our team is all made up wrong. Now Kidd has no Jefferson or Carter to get out and run for him for dunks. You can't ask him to be 25 years old anymore and turn into a Parker. I doubt you can even teach Terry and Dirk to be all star defensive players now and change their game. The next two years are gone. How much time it takes i do not know but it will get so bad that Cuban won't turn into a laughing stock, more than he is at this point for him letting be done what was done. He will know also to cut cost and go young and rebuild. That means alot of changes on this team.

mavsfan1000 · 11-15-2008, 02:36 AM

Kidd just isn't a good fit. He can still put up good stats when we run but the 4th quarters is when we stop running. Thus he is forced to be a half court point guard. That is when we get in trouble as he rarely penetrates. He can't shoot on the run either. All he does is protect the ball since he doesn't have high confidence in his dribbling and penetrating skills. This means that someone else must make things happen. Other teams know that and they key on that. Usually leaving Kidd not covered but making it more crowded for Dirk, Terry, or Howard. Add to the fact that Terry, Stackhouse, Dirk, Howard, and Diop have lost a step and here we are at 2-7.

dude1394 · 11-15-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Kidd just isn't a good fit. He can still put up good stats when we run but the 4th quarters is when we stop running. Thus he is forced to be a half court point guard. That is when we get in trouble as he rarely penetrates. He can't shoot on the run either. All he does is protect the ball since he doesn't have high confidence in his dribbling and penetrating skills. This means that someone else must make things happen. Other teams know that and they key on that. Usually leaving Kidd not covered but making it more crowded for Dirk, Terry, or Howard. Add to the fact that Terry, Stackhouse, Dirk, Howard, and Diop have lost a step and here we are at 2-7.

Unfortunately I think you've got it right. I think carlisle is going to have to find a way however...as there is no way that the mavs should fall from 50 wins to 18 in one off-season. None...

He's going to have to find away to keep either his motion offense "motioning" or imo go back to a steady diet of dirk-josh-(green/terry) as finishers. However our lack of scoring from the 5 makes jkiddo's lack of scoring more of a problem.