10-8: Mavs beat the Suns (I love typing that) - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 12-04-2008, 10:53 PM

JJ Freaking Barea. Holy cow. I still feel like it's somewhat fool's gold, but man I'm enjoying it while it lasts. I love seeing him play with confidence.

Don't overlook Damp tonight. He severely outplayed Shaq tonight, and don't discount that. Shaq has played well this season, he was rested last night specifically to play tonight and Damp just dominated him in every phase of the game.

It was fun to see Dirk shoot like that. He's due for a few more games like that.

I still want to see how everything fits when all the pieces are put together, but don't overlook what's going on here. This team is developing some serious flexibility. Dallas outplayed Phoenix with the big lineup tonight, and when Phoenix went small Carlisle said "ok, I got that too", and Dallas' midget lineup dominated again.

And this versatility is happening without one of our most versatile players. Josh is someone that would live at the rim against the kind of small lineup Phoenix threw out there in the fourth quarter, and he's our best wing defender to boot.

One small negative: Kidd is looking like he's scared of the rim again. There were several instances tonigt when Kidd beat his man off the dribble late in the shot clock and instead of making a play at the basket he forced it to a covered player on the perimeter. I hate that.

Look at Shawne Williams' line and tell me why he can't take Deaven George's minutes when everyone is healthy again.

Caseman · 12-04-2008, 10:56 PM

Terry-Barea-Kidd-Dirk-Bass <-- ultimate midget-ball

I don't know how, but that unit is working wonders. It was used to help comeback against the Clippers. And it was successful at stopping Phoenix's run. It's crazy, man.

wmbwinn · 12-04-2008, 10:57 PM

Exactly. Williams starts and plays (whether starting or off the bench) ahead of Devean George. George again started, again played over 20 minutes, and again contributed nothing...

RareMilk · 12-04-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Exactly. Williams starts and plays (whether starting or off the bench) ahead of Devean George. George again started, again played over 20 minutes, and again contributed nothing...

George didn't look good on paper but he is doing a something. Don't take that for granted.

StackAttack · 12-04-2008, 10:58 PM

I love everything about the Mavericks right now, except the treatment Gerald Green is receiving.

Caseman · 12-04-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

I love everything about the Mavericks right now, except the treatment Gerald Green is receiving.

Everytime he's been out there recently he's been awful. Why even complain about it when the Mavericks are winning?

Flacolaco · 12-04-2008, 11:00 PM

I'm just going to keep reminding myself we're 8-1 in our last 9. I am excited about that.

That 10-8 number kind of kicks me in the groin a little. I can't get excited about that.

jthig32 · 12-04-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I'm just going to keep reminding myself we're 8-1 in our last 9. I am excited about that.

That 10-8 number kind of kicks me in the groin a little. I can't get excited about that.

Josh has missed, what, 7 games? And they're a game and a half out of first in the Southwest.

I'm freaking pumped, myself.

fluid.forty.one · 12-04-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I'm just going to keep reminding myself we're 8-1 in our last 9. I am excited about that.

That 10-8 number kind of kicks me in the groin a little. I can't get excited about that.

10-8 is a helluva lot better than 2-7. I'm pumped.

jthig32 · 12-04-2008, 11:05 PM

BTW, I wouldn't say George was terrible tonight. He played ok defense (against substandard offensive players) and didn't really screw much up.

But Shawne Willaims had 12 boards in 25 minutes tonight. He just has more to offer right now.

monty55555 · 12-04-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

BTW, I wouldn't say George was terrible tonight. He played ok defense (against substandard offensive players) and didn't really screw much up.

But Shawne Willaims had 12 boards in 25 minutes tonight. He just has more to offer right now.

I'm very pleasantly surprised with Shawne Williams' defense and rebounding. My perception of him (when he was traded here) was that he was more of an offensive type of guy. Its great to see that even if his shot isn't falling, he has other ways of contributing to this team. He has been defending/rebounding well and he has been playing very well as of late. Hope it continues.

dmack24 · 12-05-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monty55555

I'm very pleasantly surprised with Shawne Williams' defense and rebounding. My perception of him (when he was traded here) was that he was more of an offensive type of guy. Its great to see that even if his shot isn't falling, he has other ways of contributing to this team. He has been defending/rebounding well and he has been playing very well as of late. Hope it continues.

Shawne Williams will be our version of Matt Barnes if we use him correctly. He is scrappy; but so is George.

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:13 PM

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

rmacomic · 12-04-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

I didn't say it, but have been thinking it.

monty55555 · 12-04-2008, 11:18 PM

Wow, I just realized that Shawne Williams had 7 offensive rebounds (12 total). Very nice!

Caseman · 12-04-2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

Come on. You think Terry is going to be hot like this all season? He is captain streak. He's bound to level off sooner than later, so Josh Howard would be a relief to this team. Besides, Josh Howard wasn't playing poorly at all when he was healthy.

alby · 12-04-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

I feel the same way Chum!

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-05-2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

You'd really rather keep seeing Deavon George starting? Really?

jthig32 · 12-04-2008, 11:17 PM

I'm pretty sure we can use 20 points and 8 boards a game along with our best wing defender.

But that's me.

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:21 PM

Trouble is, Josh Howard "not playing poorly" means that Josh Howard is using up a lot of the offense. Seems like maybe he isn't as efficient as we are playing without him.

Of course, it's not at all unprecedented to see a team perform better after they cut loose an All-Star (and Howard can only very generously be called an All-Star). Trade him for a couple good role players, and maybe you are on to something.

Caseman · 12-04-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Trouble is, Josh Howard "not playing poorly" means that Josh Howard is using up a lot of the offense. Seems like maybe he isn't as efficient as we are playing without him.

Of course, it's not at all unprecedented to see a team perform better after they cut loose an All-Star (and Howard can only very generously be called an All-Star). Trade him for a couple good role players, and maybe you are on to something.

If you do this you will be playing scraps at Small Forward. It's dumb to think this is such a complete team you can trade your All-Star (which Josh is) for "role players." How many times is it stated throughout the NBA you need 3 superstars? I count Dirk, Howard, and Terry/Kidd as one combined. People need to give Carlisle a chance to improve Howard's play, like he's done with so many of other players we would never have given a second look.

jthig32 · 12-04-2008, 11:24 PM

You're right Chum. Josh's abcense has allowed Jet and Barea to blossom into the consistent scoring threats they've always been under the surface. If Jet averages 20 a game the rest of the season and Barea averages 15, then I agree, we're golden.

But since that's not going to happen I think I'll welcome Josh back with open arms and ignore the incredibly simplistic analysis of "heck we won a few games without the guy, he must be bad".

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

You're right Chum. Josh's abcense has allowed Jet and Barea to blossom into the consistent scoring threats they've always been under the surface. If Jet averages 20 a game the rest of the season and Barea averages 15, then I agree, we're golden.

But since that's not going to happen I think I'll welcome Josh back with open arms and ignore the incredibly simplistic analysis of "heck we won a few games without the guy, he must be bad".

You've got eyes, Thiggy. You can see what everyone else is seeing. Without Howard it looks like a team out there...and the results aren't at all bad. With Howard it looks like a guy who is playing for himself and not the name on the front of the jersey.

You can welcome him back with open arms all you like, but by your same logic, if we have had problems the last few years...he has been a very large part of the problem.

I say to bid good riddance to bad rubbish. Get some team players in here. Josh ought to at least be worth a wing player with a shot who doesn't feel as though he should have the ball every time down, or who doesn't think that when he gets the ball on the break the last thing he can do is pass.

Caseman · 12-04-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You've got eyes, Thiggy. You can see what everyone else is seeing. Without Howard it looks like a team out there...and the results aren't at all bad. With Howard it looks like a guy who is playing for himself and not the name on the front of the jersey.

You can welcome him back with open arms all you like, but by your same logic, if we have had problems the last few years...he has been a very large part of the problem.

I say to bid good riddance to bad rubbish. Get some team players in here. Josh ought to at least be worth a wing player with a shot who doesn't feel as though he should have the ball every time down, or who doesn't think that when he gets the ball on the break the last thing he can do is pass.

Go knee-jerkiness!

dirno2000 · 12-04-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseman

Go knee-jerkiness!

No, he's been consistently wrong about Howard.

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

No, he's been consistently wrong about Howard.

Howard would fit in very well on those old Portland teams, or maybe the Clippers or Knicks. You know as well as I do that he could never play for a San Antonio. He just doesn't have the wherewithal.

I guess it just depends on what it is you want from a player. You seem to value athleticism more than anything. I seem to value headiness.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You've got eyes, Thiggy. You can see what everyone else is seeing. Without Howard it looks like a team out there...and the results aren't at all bad. With Howard it looks like a guy who is playing for himself and not the name on the front of the jersey.

You've said the same thing about Terry for the past 3 or 4 years. Can he stay now or do we need to trade him for a team player too?

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You've said the same thing about Terry for the past 3 or 4 years. Can he stay now or do we need to trade him for a team player too?

You're crazy. I have never said that Terry plays outside the offense. I have certainly said that as Terry goes the Mavericks go. But I have never said that Terry plays outside the offense. They are two different things.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You're crazy. I have never said that Terry plays outside the offense. I have certainly said that as Terry goes the Mavericks go. But I have never said that Terry plays outside the offense. They are two different things.

You've said on numerous occasions that Terry is more concerned about self promotion than winning basketball games. You're also on record saying that he talks a good game after losses but he could care less. Isn't that one of the reasons you want Howard gone?

Bayliss · 12-04-2008, 11:25 PM

The reason the offense looks better is because Howard is a ball stopper. Can't be a ball stopper if you want a motion offense.

You know who would have flourished in this system? A healthy Doug Christie. That dude could defend, shoot, and PASS. But I always hated horseface.

nowhereman · 12-04-2008, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

The reason the offense looks better is because Howard is a ball stopper. Can't be a ball stopper if you want a motion offense.

You know who would have flourished in this system? A healthy Doug Christie. That dude could defend, shoot, and PASS. But I always hated horseface.

This has pretty clearly not been a "motion" offense in the past 9 games, and that, along with increased defensive cohesion, has been a huge part of the turnaround. Our offense largely starts with a drive and dish, isolating dirk, or initiating a pick and roll. Which is what this team is comfortable with and has had success with. I think adding an incredibly talented scorer and athletic defender like Josh on the wing is crucial. We can only ride Dirk and Terry so much. 27 shots and 25 shots in consecutive games for Dirk is great but it's a good way to wear out a guys legs, and it can get us in a lot of trouble if the shots aren't falling (the LAC game).

And Shawne still does too many small things incorrectly, or at least, inconsistently. Even if it doesn't play out clearly in the box scores, the two immediate things I notice are his defensive rotations and his boxing out. I would still rather have DG's perimeter shot as well. Today Shawne was good. Against LAC, not so much.

Did I miss something about that status of Singleton?

wmbwinn · 12-04-2008, 11:58 PM

there is a reason that Williams played more minutes tonight. Williams belongs in small ball games. He is that type of player. He was a big part of our success. But, he won't fit in all of our games.

Bayliss · 12-04-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

ou're right Chum. Josh's abcense has allowed Jet and Barea to blossom into the consistent scoring threats they've always been under the surface. If Jet averages 20 a game the rest of the season and Barea averages 15, then I agree, we're golden.

Terry can average 20. Barea won't get 15, but guys like Williams/Barea/Wright/Singleton can get 20 every night combined if given Howard's minutes.

Flacolaco · 12-04-2008, 11:37 PM

Unless Josh comes back and we drop 3 in a row, I still think we need him back asap.

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:38 PM

Knee jerk? I've never been fond of Howard. Some people may be taken by the "Look what we found at the end of the first round!" garbage. Not me. There's a reason he slid to the end of the first round. The reason is that he is quite possibly dumber than a box of rocks and that he doesn't do a whole lot for your basketball team.

If you are a serious contender, that is.

rabbitproof · 12-04-2008, 11:45 PM

Dude, cmon on. I know you're not saying we haven't been a serious contender...

Josh has his faults and is not untradeable. It will also be his responsibility to come back, play well and not mess up the little groove we got going.

Bottom line though, I'd rather have the Mavs lace them up with Josh than without him or against him.

He's a legit star.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2008, 11:55 PM

I value game. I'd like both but if I had to take one give me game and we'll work around the rest.

Obviously we're playing very well without him but why would you assume that he can't take us to the next level? Let's see what happens with this thing when he gets healthy.

Also, remember when this thing got turned around (against the Knicks) Josh was a big player. He went for 16 and 5 (7 for 11 from the field) in the 4th quarter and overtime. That game gave us confidence that we could win in the 4th and we really haven't looked back since.

chumdawg · 12-04-2008, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I value game. I'd like both but if I had to take one give me game and we'll work around the rest.

Obviously we're playing very well without him but why would you assume that he can't take us to the next level? Let's see what happens with this thing when he gets healthy.

Also, remember when this thing got turned around (against the Knicks) Josh was a big player. He went for 16 and 5 (7 for 11 from the field) in the 4th quarter and overtime. That game gave us confidence that we could win in the 4th and we really haven't looked back since.

Trouble is that when Howard is getting his "game" no one else is getting theirs. Of course that is going to work on occasion. But long term it doesn't pan out, as we have seen the last few years.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Trouble is that when Howard is getting his "game" no one else is getting theirs. Of course that is going to work on occasion. But long term it doesn't pan out, as we have seen the last few years.

I don't know if I buy that. You got any numbers to back it up?

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don't know if I buy that. You got any numbers to back it up?

No, just observations.