It's for the children!

[dude1394]

Kids go to school - Check
Kids excel (test out at 2 grades higher than norm) - Check
Kids taught religion also - Whoa' there me bucko...Can't have that.

Hopefully there is a recall on this littlest Ceasar.

This is why we had to join a legal defense fund when we were home-schooling...for little napoleons like this who think they know better than others and have the legal authority to do...well just about any damn thing they want.

Legal tyranny is the worst.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/4727161/

Raleigh, N.C. — A judge in Wake County said three Raleigh children need switch from home school to public school. Judge Ned Mangum is presiding over divorce proceeding of the children's parents, Thomas and Venessa Mills.

Venessa Mills was in the fourth year of home schooling her children who are 10, 11 and 12 years old. They have tested two years above their grade levels, she said.

"We have math, reading; we have grammar, science, music,” Venessa Mills said.

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

"My teaching is strictly out of the Bible, and it's very clear. It is very evident so I just choose to follow the Bible,” Venessa Mills said.

In an affidavit filed Friday in the divorce case, Thomas Mills stated that he "objected to the children being removed from public school." He said Venessa Mills decided to home school after getting involved with Sound Doctrine church "where all children are home schooled."

Thomas Mills also said he was "concerned about the children's religious-based science curriculum" and that he wants "the children to be exposed to mainstream science, even if they eventually choose to believe creationism over evolution."

In a verbal ruling, Mangum said the children should go to public school.

"He was upfront and said that, 'It's not about religion.' But yet when it came down to his ruling and reasons why, 'He said this would be a good opportunity for the children to be tested in the beliefs that I have taught them,'" Venessa Mills said.

All sides agree the children have thrived with home school, and Vanessa Mills thinks that should be reason enough to continue teaching at home.

"I cannot sit back and allow this to happen to other home schoolers. I don't want it happening to my children,” Venessa Mills said.

Mangum said he wouldn't talk with WRAL News Thursday about the details of the case because he hasn't issued a written ruling yet. He said he expected to sign it in a few weeks.

An estimated 71,566 students were taught at home during the 2007-08 school year, according to figures released by the state Division of Non-Public Education. The enrollment amounts to about 4 percent of students ages 7 to 16 in North Carolina – students in that age range are required by state law to attend school. About two-thirds of the schools classified themselves as religious schools.

Home school students and their parents plan to come to Raleigh on March 24 to lobby at the state Legislature. They want to demonstrate they have a strong voice regarding education.

[mcsluggo]

what the **** are you talking about?

did you even read the article? In case you didn't, it is a dispute between PARENTS in divorce court.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

what the **** are you talking about?

did you even read the article? In case you didn't, it is a dispute between PARENTS in divorce court.

You wouldn't understand. Sure it's a divorce court but the judge has decided he knows best about how to educate the children. He should stick to custody decision and keep his own personal beliefs out of it.

[MX425]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You wouldn't understand. Sure it's a divorce court but the judge has decided he knows best about how to educate the children. He should stick to custody decision and keep his own personal beliefs out of it.

Agreed. Government is best that governs least. I get tired of these judges who sit up on their bench and decide they have some authority to 'fix" all of our country's problems.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You wouldn't understand. Sure it's a divorce court but the judge has decided he knows best about how to educate the children. He should stick to custody decision and keep his own personal beliefs out of it.

the father asked the court to intercede, and it did. this is not an issue of a judge exceeding his role, it is a case of a judge acting within his role.

you are making this out to be something that it is not. the judge did not say that the mother can't provide religious education to the kids, it is not a situation of "legal tyranny".

[mary]

The judge was going to have to side with a parent one way or the other. The father is the one that initiated the issue.

[Flacolaco]

Yeah, it looks like it should just be about custody.

Not sure why the judge interjected his opinion that "this would be a good opportunity for the children to be tested in the beliefs that (she) them". No one needs or cares about his opinion...just assign custody so the parent can decide.

[Mavdog]

it seems this is an ongoing unresolved divorce, who will have custody is not determined.

in the interim the father disagrees with the mother on her not having the kids in a school.

why aren't those who speak out against the judge's ruling unsympathetic to the father's right to have his voice and opinion taken into account?

[dude1394]

If the children had been in public school would you also support having them put in home-school based on the objection of the father? Doubt it.

They should stay where the heck they've been and this judge who thinks he's solomon should rule on the custody and shut up about his own personal beliefs...no one cares what his beliefs are.

[chumdawg]

This story is lacking a great deal in the way of detail. It says that "all sides agree the children have thrived with home school." So the father agrees that they have thrived, but now he wants something different? Could it be that he has himself been instrumental in their homeschooling, and he doesn't trust the mother to handle it on her own?

The mother herself says that the judge said this decision was "not about religion." Yet, this story is seemingly ALL about religion?

I sense that there is much more beneath the surface, not being reported here. Of course, that doesn't stop someone who feels he has an axe to grind.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

This story is lacking a great deal in the way of detail. It says that "all sides agree the children have thrived with home school." So the father agrees that they have thrived, but now he wants something different? Could it be that he has himself been instrumental in their homeschooling, and he doesn't trust the mother to handle it on her own?

The mother herself says that the judge said this decision was "not about religion." Yet, this story is seemingly ALL about religion?

I sense that there is much more beneath the surface, not being reported here. Of course, that doesn't stop someone who feels he has an axe to grind.

So what you are saying is that the media reports from its own agenda??? Is that it?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

So what you are saying is that the media reports from its own agenda??? Is that it?

I'm sure that does happen, but what is more interesting than that is that the public, more often than not, *interprets* media reports according to *their* own agenda.

Consider the original story. Was it written from the perspective of someone who has derision for home schooling? Or rather, was it written from the perspective of someone who derides government intervention in parental decisions? Or...was it none of the above? Was the original piece neutral...just a reporting of the situation, as it was best known at the time?

I'm not sure you would be able to justify any of those viewpoints.

But when Drudge linked to the story, it instantly took on a certain slant, solely because it was Drudge who linked to it.

This is proof positive that, these days, you can't throw out a term like "media" and expect it to mean the same thing in every case.

[Flacolaco]

I think chum is right when he says the story is lacking in detail.

I'm sure we can all agree on the fact that whichever parent gets custody should decide anything and everything to do with the child. The government should never tell a parent how to raise their children.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

The government should never tell a parent how to raise their children.

Then again, the government does say that a kid between the ages of 7 and 16 is supposed to be in school. It's not like parents can do whatever the hell they like.

[Flacolaco]

Fair enough.

If a parent wants to keep their kid home from school, I'm all for it. Any parent who would raise a child as such, without proper home school supplementation isn't a kid I want around my kids anyway. They're probably as stupid and as disruptive as their parents.

By the way...home school kids...the ones that I knew when I was a lad...little weird. Just sayin.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Fair enough.

If a parent wants to keep their kid home from school, I'm all for it. Any parent who would raise a child as such, without proper home school supplementation isn't a kid I want around my kids anyway. They're probably as stupid and as disruptive as their parents.

By the way...home school kids...the ones that I knew when I was a lad...little weird. Just sayin.

I tend to think that home schooling kids is about an anti-social thing as one could imagine. It speaks of extreme arrogance, not to mention abject incompetence, on the part of the parent.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I tend to think that home schooling kids is about an anti-social thing as one could imagine. It speaks of extreme arrogance, not to mention abject incompetence, on the part of the parent.

Abject incompetence? That's moronic. I know plenty of successful, well adjusted people that were home schooled for most, if not all, of their education.

Parents that are involved in their kids' educations, even to the point of total control, are giving their kids a major leg up on kids whose parents are not involved at all (which is very common in the public school system).

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

By the way...home school kids...the ones that I knew when I was a lad...little weird. Just sayin.

Even though I was raised in the suburbs, went to a preppy public high school, listened to rap, partied etc.. I was raised playing the fiddle and bluegrass music (my older brothers had gotten into it for god knows what reason). Because of this, I was, and still am, around dozens of huge home schooled christian familys. It seems like if a family is christian, has a farm and more than 5 kids.. they start family bands not unlike what you see in Oh Brother Where Art Thou.

Anyway.. point of the story is that I spent a LOT of time with an outside view on a home school world. I'd say 99% of them were completely socially awkward and strange... I can only think of one family off the top of my head that I would be cool with "kickin it" with.

BUT... they're happy and they probably seem normal around each other, so whatever.

[chumdawg]

FFO, the whole idea behind home school kids is that they aren't exposed to people like you.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

FFO, the whole idea behind home school kids is that they aren't exposed to people like you.

You sure are painting with a broad brush.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I tend to think that home schooling kids is about an anti-social thing as one could imagine. It speaks of extreme arrogance, not to mention abject incompetence, on the part of the parent.

You couldn't be more wrong. I can't speak for other communities, but what you said here is not what we have experienced. Both of my daughters are social butterflies. It's not like if you are going to home school you lock the door and shutter the windows. Get for real.

[fluid.forty.one]

yeah, but see I don't act like me when I'm around the Bluegrass community. If their parents don't want their kids corrupted, I'm going to respect those wishes.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

yeah, but see I don't act like me when I'm around the Bluegrass community. If their parents don't want their kids corrupted, I'm going to respect those wishes.

The sad thing is that what you see as corrupt is just the beginning of their social understanding.

[fluid.forty.one]

Not what *I* see as corrupt.. because I don't think of it as corrupt. I'm going by their standards.

But you're right, their social understanding is so tiny because so much of what makes teenagers, teenagers.. or people, people.. is off limits to them.

[Murphy3]

My family is Christian had alot of kids.. we didn't start a band. We didn't have a farm, but closer to a small ranch. Does that count?

F41, I know that you're basing it on what you've seen in the media a few times, but you're way off base on this one.

[fluid.forty.one]

Were your kids home schooled? I'm talking about the christian families that keep their kids home so their minds don't get warped by "science".

lol lighten up.. it's not what I've seen in the media, it's just a million examples I've seen at different bluegrass festivals. Of course it's not going to apply to every family.

[12 Tone Melodies]

Its not just Christians who home school
There are a lot of old hippies who chose home schooling to "avoid having their kids taught materialism"
I personally know 2 Wiccan families who home school because of the "continuing influence of religion in the schools"

[92bDad]

I've got to jump in on this topic...however I will be out of pocket as we are traveling on a family vacation to Paris, France for spring break.

We are a home-school family...at least we were until they boys were of age to enter the 9th grade (HS Freshman)

They are both graduating this year, both in the top 5% of their class and both going into college honors programs, with academic scholarships.

Both are also involved in other activities, such as soccer, tennis and JOURNALISM!!!

Both have taken the stance of Creation as well as other socially conservative views.

However both are well respected within their HS by their peers and the various Teachers and Administrators they work and study with.

In terms of hanging out with, they have done rather well, but they already has a strong group of friends prior to going to HS.

Our family has several friends, Homeschooled, Public Schooled, Private Schooled...each can have their querks, but each also have some great qualities.

They have their values, yet they are open to others having different values. We have raised them to be open rather than tolerant. Being tolerant emplies that others are wrong but you tolerate them...being open emplies that other views are valued.

Our home is a Christian based home, however each has the opportunity to live their faith as they best see fit. The big difference in our home, is that as parents, my wife and I chose to Believe in our kids at a very early age. They have been respected by us and thus trust was built.

We actually listened to our sons from an early age and much of that was through our involvement in Homeschooling.

Now Homeschool is NOT for everyone...some parents don't have the willingness to understand their kids and find the best way to teach and develop their kids. On that some note, Public or Private school is NOT for everyone...

Basically there is no ONE STOP SHOP for education.

Funny, but this all comes down to ones CHOICE.

So many talk about homeschoolers being awkward...for those that I've known personally over the years, I have encouraged them to spend time with my kids, without me around...every time, they come back and acknowledge that they actually might not understand the dynamic of homeschooling.

Coming from an abusive home as a child for my wife and I, we decided as adults to take our responsibility to parent seriously and we chose to learn how to be better parents along the way. The results are yet not finished, but when I see my 17 and 18 year old sons and their track record so far, I am confident that homeschooling was a very positive portion of our parenting...one that had we not had, we may not have the same great kids that we have today.

Try not to be Prejudiced against Homeschoolers.

[chumdawg]

The bottom line, the way I see it, is that parents don't homeschool their kids for the kids' benefit; they homeschool their kids for their OWN benefit.

And that is very, very sad.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The bottom line, the way I see it, is that parents don't homeschool their kids for the kids' benefit; they homeschool their kids for their OWN benefit.

And that is very, very sad.

Nope. You can make the case that some parents do it to make sure their children are not exposed to beliefs that don't match their own. That obviously happens.

But homeschooling is a lot of work for parents, and for those who take is seriously, it's a huge responsibility.

Again, parents that don't care just punt their kids out the front door everyday and that's the end of their involvement (or worse, don't make them go regularly at all). THAT is very, very sad.

[Flacolaco]

I have an Aunt and Uncle that home school their kids and I am constantly astounded by how much work they put into it. Their kids are really, really sharp kids.

It seems home schooling has come a long way over the years. Maybe home schooled kids aren't as awkward as they used to be back in the day. There are a lot more activities and social networks for home schooled kids now than there used to be.

There's still something about leaving the house 5 days a week and being out there, somewhat on your own, dealing with the many challenges that present themselves that is an irreplaceable experience that I consider pretty essential to growing up. The time you spend away from your parents can be just as important as the time you spend with them.

[chumdawg]

The case of the parents who "punt their kids out the front door" is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Again, from my perspective it is not at all a matter of how seriously the homeschool parents take their responsibility or how effective they are at teaching. I do not at all claim that they can't get done the job of teaching the material.

Rather, it's a matter of motive. Why take on a job that you are already paying professionals to do? And MUCH more to the point, why deny your children the social education that most every other child is getting?

That's the part that is incompetent. In the end it doesn't matter much the ABC's or math or geography that the kids learn; they are going to learn that eventually, wherever they go to school. But they will *never* get another chance at the social setting you insulated them from when you kept them home in their early years.

I should say that this logic does not apply to special needs kids with marked disabilities. Those kids may actually be better served not being exposed to said social environment in their developmental years.

[92bDad]

So let me get this straight, the social setting of public schools is what you feel is what kids need to have.

In other words, putting kids in groups of 20-40 all the same age is a correct representation of what they will face as adults.

Versus homeschooling where kids are put into groups of people of mixed ages, interacting with personalities and ages of all types.

Often times seeing 15 and 16 year old kids mentoring younger kids ages 5-10...not to mention younger kids having to learn to relate to those older than them and to different authority figures.

The teaching is given at the pace of each individual student, as opposed to the weakest in the class.

After all, in the real world, we only work with peers our own age, just like we did as kids in school :-)

[chumdawg]

Yes, kids need to experience the social settings that the vast majority of their peers do. That's where a lot of stuff--important stuff--is learned.

[Mavdog]

there is no comparison between the variety of people, of social settings, of social dynamics that a kid in public school will experience vs the kid in a home school.

the day to day experiences of a public or private school are much more varied, and more challenging. in a home school there is little chance of the same social issues being confronted by the kids, they are in an isolated environment.

that being said, a kid in a home school can get just as good a curriculum and learn as much as a kid in a public school. likewise, a kid in a public school can fail in their education, just like a kid in a home school can receive a poor education.

the issue in this case is twofold: recognition of the right of the father in regard to decisions on the children's education, and the question of if the mother has the ability to teach the children on an acceptable level.

it seems to me the first question is a no brainer. yes, the father should have his voice heard on the children's education, unless it can be shown he does not have the best interest of the children at heart.

the second question may be what prompted the ruling by the judge. we really do not have the facts to make a determination. this question needs to answered to decide what is in the best interest of the kids.

what we do know is the judge is acting within his role, and this is not a situation of "legal tyranny".

[Murphy3]

For the most part, I don't like what home schooling can do to a child when it comes to developing social skills. I have seen to many home school kids that don't have the best social skills at all. Perhaps that would have been the case regardless of their setting.

But, I see alot of reasons to like the idea of home schooling. For one, the quality of education received in many public schools is laughable. Hell, back in high school, I had the same teacher for Gifted and Talented class as I did for Physics. You cannot imagine how tired I got of watching the same movies every day in each class. How many times do you need to watch Searching for Bobby Fisher and T2 in one week? At least mix it up. But, the teacher had so much give up in him that he truly couldn't care less. And yeah, this is the exception and not the rule, but there are a ton of bad teachers out there.. many that are just cashing a paycheck. And there's also the issue of wanting to home school the child simply because you don't want your child around a certain element in a particular school. The school that I went to was heavy into drugs..extremely heavy. I can 100% see why a parent wouldn't want their 13 or 14 year old child being forced to make that decision on a daily basis.

[mavsgirl4134]

I guess it really depends on the situation. I went to a private school, if you even want to call it that. There were only like, 8 other kids, our "teacher" wasn't even a certified teacher. We weren't in separate classes. It was all of us in one room doing our individualized stuff. Anyway, I went to this school for 7th and 8th grade. My dad had just passed away and my stepmom had started going to church and decided to put me and my brother in the private school. After those 2 years the church I was going to decided to move elsewhere so the school was basically nonexistent. My stepmom decided then that she would homeschool us. So, for my freshman year, I had the same kind of Christian based curriculum that I had for the previous two years. Let's just say, I taught myself how to do Algebra, and Biology etc.. My stepmom was a single parent and was working night shift so she was never there to teach us. She barely graduated high school so it's not like it would have mattered anyway.

When I finally went to highschool, it was a little weird. Of course I was having a lot of family problems, but having an extremely God based curriculum shoved down your throat for 3 years and then going to high school where your classmates are doing drugs and screwing each other, it was a bit odd.

I really liked my Biology course though, I didn't get to dissect frogs like a lot kids did. No, I had to learn why God does all this biology stuff. I had to learn what His purpose in doing all of these things are. It wasn't science at all.. it was just weird stories and assumptions disguised as science. When I went to High school, that's when I learned REAL science that didn't have an assumption to go along with it why God made it that way. So I really can understand why the father would want his kids to go to a public school. And, I totally agree with him.

[chumdawg]

Murph, didn't you go to school in Sanger? I reckon we should make a 5A/3A distinction here.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Murph, didn't you go to school in Sanger? I reckon we should make a 5A/3A distinction here.

I went to two different schools... Spent a three years in one high school and one at another.

[92bDad]

funny to see the misunderstanding about "Social" setting for homeschooled kids.

My own sons, each have their unique personalities. One is a social butterfly and the other is a bit of an "Engineer" type of guy. Basically, my oldest is a bit of a perfectionist, rules follower and rules enforcer.

To give you an example...my oldest son, when he joined the HS as a freshman...he made the Varsity Tennis team. The only Freshman playing varsity...at one of the practices, a couple of the Seniors decided to play peg the freshman girls with the ball, by serving the balls at them. So here goes my son, the freshman with his homeschool values...intervening and stopping the hazing from the Seniors.

So yes, his homeschool background taught him to think independantly and to basically not fall victim to peer pressure.

My younger son has some similar examples...

During their homeschool days, they had a group of friends through the various social groups that they participated in. The local Youth Sports scene and the various Youth Church activities...specifically AWANA, Youth Soccer, Youth Baseball, Youth Football, Youth Tennis...also various service ministries. To include serving the homeless, construction projects in a run down drug infested neighborhood...developing a friendship with a boy there own age, from that neighborhood.

This young boy, does not know his father, his mom is a recovering drug addict with a prostitution background...basically he's experiencing some pretty bad stuff.

My sons, through homeschooling and the group of friends we have, gained the opportunity to be involved in this young man's life, and he in turn in their life. They've learned some different things about each others cultures and thus have an appreciation for the differences while not feeding the unwarranted hate.

As for me, I was a public school kid who dropped out. The crowd I ran with taught me how to get high, get drunk, get laid, etc...not to mention the crimes committed during that time. When I joined the military, life was all about me, myself and I...my political views were Extreme Left, I was a victim and wanted to be taken care of.

But times changed, to the point were I became Socially Conservative and parented with that and my faith as my anchor.

When I see where I was at 20 and where my kids are at 17 and 18...I wouldn't trade homeschooling for anything.

To bring it back to the original topic, this judge...based on what has been presented, is clueless if his rational is faith based. That faith base is what has enabled my kids to have an internal compass to help them make decisions between right and wrong...without it, they would have done the same things I did growing up...and quite possibly no longer be with us.

Again, it aint for everybody...but as for me and my house, Homeschooling was a great success.

Would you rather have a little awkward homeschool perception, or some drugged out, pregnant teenagers running around?

By the way, that time homeschooling has enabled us to have a great relationship today as they get ready for college. We actually communicate with one another and it aint just surface stuff...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Would you rather have a little awkward homeschool perception, or some drugged out, pregnant teenagers running around?

I hope your homeschooled kids learned critical reasoning somewhere outside the home.