Is Avery's job on the line? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

endrity · 02-22-2008, 12:46 PM

I think we miss Del a lot, and I have been saying this. The reason is that he was the one guy who had worked will Nellie a lot, and also knew the offense much better. Plus I saw Del under Avery a lot, and he was always calming him down, telling him something. One of the main weaknesses of Avery has been that he doesn't know what to do once things turn bad, and he believes getting mad is the only way, not realising that he is reflecting insecurity to the team. Del was great at offering the other image, the "don't worry, we have an answer" image that Avery has never found.

guntfighter · 02-22-2008, 01:01 PM

I believe Avery is somewhere in the top ten among coaches. Unless there is someone clearly better available it would be a pretty dumb idea.

Bookit · 02-22-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guntfighter

I believe Avery is somewhere in the top ten among coaches. Unless there is someone clearly better available it would be a pretty dumb idea.

Why do you believe Avery is a top ten coach? Watching Boston's defense has opened my eyes a bit about Avery. He is obviously a very good communicator but his defenses have never been suffocating and he can't coach offense very well, especially against the zone. He is nowhere close to Nellie in evaluating talent so what is so great about Avery?

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookit

Why do you believe Avery is a top ten coach? Watching Boston's defense has opened my eyes a bit about Avery. He is obviously a very good communicator but his defenses have never been suffocating and he can't coach offense very well, especially against the zone. He is nowhere close to Nellie in evaluating talent so what is so great about Avery?

His defense was pretty suffocating last year. And in the WCF against PHX two years ago (talk about suffocating, those 2nd halves were amazing).

Bookit · 02-22-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

His defense was pretty suffocating last year. And in the WCF against PHX two years ago (talk about suffocating, those 2nd halves were amazing).

So his defense coaching abilities are why he is a top ten coach?

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookit

So his defense coaching abilities are why he is a top ten coach?

He's a top 10 coach because I can't name 10 better coaches in the NBA. Can you?

sike · 02-22-2008, 01:37 PM

Does Paul Westphal have anything left?...or is he just happier as a ast. coach?

he would put some pop in the offense I'd wager.

Jack.Kerr · 02-22-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Does Paul Westphal have anything left?...or is he just happier as a ast. coach?

he would put some pop in the offense I'd wager.

If they're going to change, they'd need more than Westphal. He's a 2nd or 3rd-tier alternative, at best.

Weren't we supposed to see a revitalization of the offense with him onboard?

endrity · 02-22-2008, 01:48 PM

Pop, PJax, Riley, George Karl, Jerry Sloan, Byron Scott, Nate McMillan, Rick Adelman

These are probably all better than AJ

You could argue about Sam Mitchell, Doc Rivers, Stan Van Gundy, Mike D'Antoni

Also Larry Brown, Scott Skiles, Jeff Van Gundy, Rick Carlise while out of coaching are still better than Avery. We are not sure whether Avery's success is just a product of a very talented roster.

sike · 02-22-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

If they're going to change, they'd need more than Westphal. He's a 2nd or 3rd-tier alternative, at best.

Weren't we supposed to see a revitalization of the offense with him onboard?

that is AJ's iron fist in action, I'd wager...

there was a time when Paul Westphal was one of the better coaches (especially offensive coaches) in this league...does that just leave a guy?

sike · 02-22-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

Pop, PJax, Riley, George Karl, Jerry Sloan, Byron Scott, Nate McMillan, Rick Adelman

These are probably all better than AJ

You could argue about Sam Mitchell, Doc Rivers, Stan Van Gundy, Mike D'Antoni

Also Larry Brown, Scott Skiles, Jeff Van Gundy, Rick Carlise while out of coaching are still better than Avery. We are not sure whether Avery's success is just a product of a very talented roster.

I'm not sure "better" is the key...as much as "different". I think they need a different coach if they do not succeed in reaching deep into the playoffs this season.

alexamenos · 02-22-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

....We are not sure whether Avery's success is just a product of a very talented roster.

And I still think the very talented roster angle is over-rated.

Bass, for instance, couldn't get off the bench in New Orleans yet in Dallas he's looking like a key part of about an 8 man rotation. So if Byron Scott is a genious coach, and Avery only wins because of the greatness of talent in Dallas, why is it a guy that couldn't get on the floor in N.O. is getting so much run in Dallas?

And....let's not forget that Diop and...crud, I forgot the dude's name....what was it???

Anyhow, Diop and some dude that was playing XBox at the beginning of the '06 season (who was last seen occupying territory down at the end of the oh-so talented Bulls bench) were starters (STARTERS) on the team that made the finals run.

Adrian Griffith -- that's the dude's name. He ain't exactly Mr. Supertalent, is he?

....anyhoo....the mavs have had some talent in recent years, but outside of Dirk it has hardly been mind-blowing talent (and it's not like dirk is heads and tales better than Duncan, KG, Nash, Kobe, D-Wade, etc.). Pre-kidd, Josh was arguably the 2nd best player (actually, it was Devin, but for the sake of argument) -- yet Josh would be at best the third option for any number of teams......

....Denver (w/ AI), Houston, Utah ('07), San Antonio, Phoenix, Miami ('06), Detroit, blah blah blah......

Who would you trade heads up for JET???? Ginobili? Marion? Marcus Camby? Kirilenko(well, he's playing a bit better this year)? Rip Hamilton? Rashweed Wallace? Chauncey Billups (if we're in the race)? That freaky looking dude that plays small forward for the Pistons? I'd seriously consider any of the above, so it's not like Terry is some unique and special talent.

Pt being, our 2nd and third best players over the last few years aren't any better than any other teams 2nd and 3rd's, and in a lot of cases I'd trade these guys straight up for guys on other teams. So as far as great talent advantage on the starting five, forget it.

And further down the bench--deep, schmeep. We've had stack, and he's had his moments, and we've had 12 fouls at the center. The rest of the deepness has been a mirage.

So, it ain't a talent advantage which we have not had over the past couple of years that explains the number of wins the mavs have had under Johnson....

ty · 02-22-2008, 02:37 PM

Avery is a good coach.......for his style.

I don't think he is a flexible coach though. He's only good at coaching the Spurs.

rabbitproof · 02-22-2008, 02:42 PM

Yes.

We need some results but it will be more about the how things unfold. The West is just so animal this year that if say Utah lost in the second round this year, it would not directly indicate regression.

sike · 02-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

He's only good at coaching the Spurs.

then that is not a good coach.

alexamenos · 02-22-2008, 02:45 PM

I think what Avery did in '06 is he got guys believing that they could play mean and tough and even a little dirty, and they believed him for awhile. It ain't geometry*, it's basketball --- the x's and o's aren't that difficult to figure out. Attitude matters.

Since '06, they've gotten softer and softer and more intimidate-able.....and they're playing like it. They're still playing ok defense from time to time, but they don't haven't that same edge they played with for awhile after Avery first took over.

(*from Kidd's press conference -- geometry being the most infathomably difficult subject that Jason Kidd could imagine, complementary angles and pythagorean theorems being concepts well beyond his grasp)

Bookit · 02-22-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

He's a top 10 coach because I can't name 10 better coaches in the NBA. Can you?

Cute.

What do you believe are Avery's strengths? I have always loved Avery because I believed he would bring a tough defense to a team that was all offense with Nellie. He just hasn't done it yet so the jury is still out with him. I do like how he teaches players to stay down on pump fakes however. He is just an average head coach imo but if he can get this team clicking before the playoffs, offensively and defensively, I will change my mind about him.

ty · 02-22-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

(*from Kidd's press conference -- geometry being the most infathomably difficult subject that Jason Kidd could imagine, complementary angles and pythagorean theorems being concepts well beyond his grasp)

Kidd ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

And I still think the very talented roster angle is over-rated.

Bass, for instance, couldn't get off the bench in New Orleans yet in Dallas he's looking like a key part of about an 8 man rotation. So if Byron Scott is a genious coach, and Avery only wins because of the greatness of talent in Dallas, why is it a guy that couldn't get on the floor in N.O. is getting so much run in Dallas?

And....let's not forget that Diop and...crud, I forgot the dude's name....what was it???

Anyhow, Diop and some dude that was playing XBox at the beginning of the '06 season (who was last seen occupying territory down at the end of the oh-so talented Bulls bench) were starters (STARTERS) on the team that made the finals run.

Adrian Griffith -- that's the dude's name. He ain't exactly Mr. Supertalent, is he?

....anyhoo....the mavs have had some talent in recent years, but outside of Dirk it has hardly been mind-blowing talent (and it's not like dirk is heads and tales better than Duncan, KG, Nash, Kobe, D-Wade, etc.). Pre-kidd, Josh was arguably the 2nd best player (actually, it was Devin, but for the sake of argument) -- yet Josh would be at best the third option for any number of teams......

....Denver (w/ AI), Houston, Utah ('07), San Antonio, Phoenix, Miami ('06), Detroit, blah blah blah......

Who would you trade heads up for JET???? Ginobili? Marion? Marcus Camby? Kirilenko(well, he's playing a bit better this year)? Rip Hamilton? Rashweed Wallace? Chauncey Billups (if we're in the race)? That freaky looking dude that plays small forward for the Pistons? I'd seriously consider any of the above, so it's not like Terry is some unique and special talent.

Pt being, our 2nd and third best players over the last few years aren't any better than any other teams 2nd and 3rd's, and in a lot of cases I'd trade these guys straight up for guys on other teams. So as far as great talent advantage on the starting five, forget it.

And further down the bench--deep, schmeep. We've had stack, and he's had his moments, and we've had 12 fouls at the center. The rest of the deepness has been a mirage.

So, it ain't a talent advantage which we have not had over the past couple of years that explains the number of wins the mavs have had under Johnson....

It's true that in 06 there was a dropoff from Dirk to the next guy, whoever that was. But the thing is that the roster was stacked with players that could contribute. We had Stack, KVH (two former number 1s for their teams), Devin, and Diop coming off the bench. That is crazy good. Tell me one team in 06 that could bring anything close to that from the bench. The Spurs? They had Oberto, Finley and..... The Heat? They had Zo, Posey and a very washed up GP. Suns? Nothing, they still got nothing since D'Antoni plays like 6 guys at most. And the Mavs had Del, still providing some of the offensive wizardry from the Nellie days. Don't forget also that the roster overhaul in the summer of 04, was done precisely to become a better defensive team. And most players were brought in with that intention in mind. Avery had a roster that most coaches would dream about. While he had no Shaq or Duncan, he probably had the next best thing, a roster with very little weakness and versatility to drool about, and a superstar entering his prime.

Diop and Bass were both Donnie's finds more than anything. Especially Diop came in because the head of scouting for the Mavs (I forget his name) knew Diop very well since he was in Senegal. And how did Avery menage Diop???? He was barely playing him this year eventhough to me Diop seemed still the very active defensive player we knew. Now he is falling in love with Bass. The problem is that while Bass plays more and more minutes, his novelty act wears off and know we are seeing the real holes in his game. He tries to be overagressive, and has yet to figure out how he can be an undersized power player. He is even worse than Josh at passing the ball, and that's saying something. He is alright in man to man, but really gets lost anytime he has to help out on D. He is an average, maybe slightly better, rebounder and provides nothing in terms of shotblocking. So knowing all these holes in his game, does Avery try to put him in better positions? NO. He still plays him as center, while he should be playing alongside a center most of the time, and puts him in iso after iso situation where often becomes a black hole.

Is New Orleans pissed to see him do well now? Maybe. Does that say that Avery is better than Byron? Hardly. Anyone that makes it to the NBA has talent, and put in a right position they can all succeed to a certain level. Every year we hear stories of some scrub who all of sudden starts to play well and contribute for some team(Royal Ivey, W.Hermann, Flip Murray, Bowen, etc etc). Every coach loses one or two guys like these. Pop gave up on Udrih and now Sacto is making him their PG of the future. Does that mean Theus is better than Pop? Of course not.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 05:24 PM

Again, need I remind everyone at this point that the line between Avery being a "fantastic" coach and a "ok" coach is as thin as a few free throws by Wade and Dirk.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Again, need I remind everyone at this point that the line between Avery being a "fantastic" coach and a "ok" coach is as thin as a few free throws by Wade and Dirk.

Maybe in terms of respect and labeling, since winning a ring is great in terms of defining someone's legacy. However sometimes that is a mirage also. Look at Billups for example. Has anyone choked more than he has the last two playoffs? Absolutely not. Yet he won a ring, hit some big shots against a Lakers pick and roll D that made stars out of PGs like Bibby and Hudson, gained a reputation as "clutch" and Mr. Big Shot and has done very little of that the last two years. I guess what I am trying to say is that reputations, just like the one Dirk has now, are sometimes underserved even when they are positive.

Avery had an opportunity to keep his team together during the finals, and he didn't. He has had two more seasons to show that those free throws were not going to stop this team from winning, and he hasn't. If we win that ring, and he gets clearely outcoached by Nellie in 07, starts to lose his superstar, and fills the roster up with veterans that provide nothing, I think we are still having this debate. Even if he won in 06, this remains a "what have you done for me lately" business.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

Maybe in terms of respect and labeling, since winning a ring is great in terms of defining someone's legacy. However sometimes that is a mirage also. Look at Billups for example. Has anyone choked more than he has the last two playoffs? Absolutely not. Yet he won a ring, hit some big shots against a Lakers pick and roll D that made stars out of PGs like Bibby and Hudson, gained a reputation as "clutch" and Mr. Big Shot and has done very little of that the last two years. I guess what I am trying to say is that reputations, just like the one Dirk has now, are sometimes underserved even when they are positive.

Avery had an opportunity to keep his team together during the finals, and he didn't. He has had two more seasons to show that those free throws were not going to stop this team from winning, and he hasn't. If we win that ring, and he gets clearely outcoached by Nellie in 07, starts to lose his superstar, and fills the roster up with veterans that provide nothing, I think we are still having this debate. Even if he won in 06, this remains a "what have you done for me lately" business.

What have you done for me lately doesn't mean less than 2 years after your brand new coach wins a title you start calling him a bad coach. It takes a bit longer than that.

I'm not saying nobody would be debating it--just that the folks arguing on the one side wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

sbibi · 02-22-2008, 05:44 PM

this is the stupidest debate i've ever seen. There is no question whether avery is a good coach or not. There is no way that his job is on the the line... The team was doing very well but since we were without harris or a pure pg (Kidd), we've been losing games. The team needs to adjust now... Without Avery, we would still be the running team when Nellie was around... The team might be struggling right now, but I trust Avery because of where he brought us through the competitive western conference. The last 2 years have been great lessons for this Maverick team with Avery taking over the team. Just be patient until the playoffs, you will be surprised...

endrity · 02-22-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

What have you done for me lately doesn't mean less than 2 years after your brand new coach wins a title you start calling him a bad coach. It takes a bit longer than that.

I'm not saying nobody would be debating it--just that the folks arguing on the one side wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

If you mean that he wouldn't be fired 2 years after winning a ring than I probably agree with you.

But after two bad coaching seasons, any FO would have the right to start rethinking his position. Plus succesful coaches often do get fired, in order to hire possible better ones. Carlise was fired for Larry brown after an ECF berth in his second season. Didn't Magic get his LA coach fired a year after they won a ring, because he wanted Riley? Riley again replacen Stan a year after an ECF berth, and led the heat to a ring. I am not saying that the Mavs can get a better coach now. All I am saying is that at time even succesful coaches can be under scrutiny

endrity · 02-22-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbibi

this is the stupidest debate i've ever seen. There is no question whether avery is a good coach or not. There is no way that his job is on the the line... The team was doing very well but since we were without harris or a pure pg (Kidd), we've been losing games. The team needs to adjust now... Without Avery, we would still be the running team when Nellie was around... The team might be struggling right now, but I trust Avery because of where he brought us through the competitive western conference. The last 2 years have been great lessons for this Maverick team with Avery taking over the team. Just be patient until the playoffs, you will be surprised...

In case you don't remember, the 04 roster overhaul pretty much prevented Nellie from ever again having a running team with the Mavs at least. That, and Nash's departure, is why he stepped down. The FO made a clear decision to move towards a more conventional style of playing, and that the Nellie days were over. Therefore no, with or without Avery, we would not be Nellie's Mavs all over again.

Dirkenstien · 02-22-2008, 05:51 PM

I have a feeling that, with Kidd's arrival, Avery is going start getting our guys to be a little nasty again. We have a team than can be pretty damn mean when they want.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

If you mean that he wouldn't be fired 2 years after winning a ring than I probably agree with you.

But after two bad coaching seasons, any FO would have the right to start rethinking his position. Plus succesful coaches often do get fired, in order to hire possible better ones. Carlise was fired for Larry brown after an ECF berth in his second season. Didn't Magic get his LA coach fired a year after they won a ring, because he wanted Riley? Riley again replacen Stan a year after an ECF berth, and led the heat to a ring. I am not saying that the Mavs can get a better coach now. All I am saying is that at time even succesful coaches can be under scrutiny

But it hasn't been 2 bad seasons. It's been a 67 win season with a disappointing exit, and a season that's not even close to complete yet.

I'm not arguing that last year was "good" by any means, but Avery coached really well for the entire regular season after the 0-4 start. A playoff collapse should detract heavily from that--but it shouldn't completely negate it.

And you really can't count this year. The Mavs are 31-19, and are shaping up to make their final push. We'll see how it goes, but, assuming the Mavs had won the title, this wouldn't be nearly enough to get people justifiably riled up about Avery. Some might be complaining, but when is there not someone complaining?

endrity · 02-22-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

But it hasn't been 2 bad seasons. It's been a 67 win season with a disappointing exit, and a season that's not even close to complete yet.

I'm not arguing that last year was "good" by any means, but Avery coached really well for the entire regular season after the 0-4 start. A playoff collapse should detract heavily from that--but it shouldn't completely negate it.

And you really can't count this year. The Mavs are 31-19, and are shaping up to make their final push. We'll see how it goes, but, assuming the Mavs had won the title, this wouldn't be nearly enough to get people justifiably riled up about Avery. Some might be complaining, but when is there not someone complaining?

I guess your point is that he hasn't been all bad, and there have been some good things. I agree. The problem here is that after the team totally recommitted to him last year, they got absolutely embarassed and that will stay with them for the rest of their careers unless they are able to win a ring. The ramifications of that loss are still being heavily felt. I think the most untold story of that playoff collapse is how Avery and Dirk are probably at an all time low in their relationship. At least Dirk towards Avery. That doesn't bode well for a team trying to win a championship.

Regarding the current season, I think most people would describe it as a slight underachievement. The Mavs can make a push, but honestly tell me how much do you believe in that right now. Have you seen the Lakers or Jazz recently? Did you see NO the other night? Can you see that the Spurs, under the radar, are slowly pulling themself together for the umpteenth time after the rodeo road trip? Unless the Mavs make a serious push with Kidd, a WCF berth at least, where they show that if they just add one more piece in the summer they can surely beat this new, crazy good West, do you honestly go into the next season with any hope. The Mavs really have to provide something substantially good during the playoffs, at least give me that.

Janett_Reno · 02-22-2008, 06:07 PM

If teams keep running us and making us take Dampier out, after this season, will Avery and Cuban go with a player and players that play Kidds style? I don't think Dampier plays Kidd style.

Just something to remember, it is talks of Marion not returning to Miami. Does Dallas go back to Nash/Kidd style and run next year? That puts Dampier out of business most of the game and then does Avery go with Kidd, Terry, Howard, Marion and Dirk? I think all five guys can play that style and Marion and Howard are great defenders. The only bad, it puts alot of pressure on Dirk at defense. If no Marion, then they might try to pick up a running center. Kidd has two years left after this. Nash has about the same and time is running out for both. Both have been great players.

When Kidd and Nash have spacing, up and down game and make it a full court game they are both really good. Our team will have to adjust to playing that style again. It looks like with us getting Kidd, we are going to adjust to playing his style, not him adjusting to playing our style. It will also mean getting another forward and playing three forwards or getting a center that can fly up and down the court. I am still not giving up on this year and i hope for all the best. It is going to be difficult with how strong the west is.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

I guess your point is that he hasn't been all bad, and there have been some good things. I agree. The problem here is that after the team totally recommitted to him last year, they got absolutely embarassed and that will stay with them for the rest of their careers unless they are able to win a ring. The ramifications of that loss are still being heavily felt. I think the most untold story of that playoff collapse is how Avery and Dirk are probably at an all time low in their relationship. At least Dirk towards Avery. That doesn't bode well for a team trying to win a championship.

Regarding the current season, I think most people would describe it as a slight underachievement. The Mavs can make a push, but honestly tell me how much do you believe in that right now. Have you seen the Lakers or Jazz recently? Did you see NO the other night? Can you see that the Spurs, under the radar, are slowly pulling themself together for the umpteenth time after the rodeo road trip? Unless the Mavs make a serious push with Kidd, a WCF berth at least, where they show that if they just add one more piece in the summer they can surely beat this new, crazy good West, do you honestly go into the next season with any hope. The Mavs really have to provide something substantially good during the playoffs, at least give me that.

The West is good, but nobody is unbeatable. The Mavs looked far more unbeatable last year than the Lakers or anyone this year, and they went out in the first round.

Anything can happen. The Mavs are going to improve and will be a force in April. They may not win, but they'll be a force. And I'll tell you this much--they are going to want it more than anyone, which can't be understated.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

And I'll tell you this much--they are going to want it more than anyone, which can't be understated.

I don't think you have seen Kobe enough lately.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

I don't think you have seen Kobe enough lately.

I've seen him plenty. He's Kobe, the most talented basketball player in the world. But, competitive as he may be, nobody is going to want it more than the Mavs (except the Celtics for KG and Allen, perhaps).

That certainly doesn't guarantee a win, but it will serve them well.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

If teams keep running us and making us take Dampier out, after this season, will Avery and Cuban go with a player and players that play Kidds style? I don't think Dampier plays Kidd style.

Just something to remember, it is talks of Marion not returning to Miami. Does Dallas go back to Nash/Kidd style and run next year? That puts Dampier out of business most of the game and then does Avery go with Kidd, Terry, Howard, Marion and Dirk? I think all five guys can play that style and Marion and Howard are great defenders. The only bad, it puts alot of pressure on Dirk at defense. If no Marion, then they might try to pick up a running center. Kidd has two years left after this. Nash has about the same and time is running out for both. Both have been great players.

When Kidd and Nash have spacing, up and down game and make it a full court game they are both really good. Our team will have to adjust to playing that style again. It looks like with us getting Kidd, we are going to adjust to playing his style, not him adjusting to playing our style. It will also mean getting another forward and playing three forwards or getting a center that can fly up and down the court. I am still not giving up on this year and i hope for all the best. It is going to be difficult with how strong the west is.

To get Marion, it would have to be a sign and trade, or just a regular trade because even if he leaves his option (unlikely, given that he is making 17 mill next year) we don't have cap to sign him. Frankly I thought Marion was a bit overrated as a Sun, so no I wouldn't be thrilled to see him here. Damp will serve his purpose man, I guarantee you. He just might not be enough. Gasol and Bynum, Chandler and West, Duncan and Thomas, those are some heavy frontlines.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I've seen him plenty. He's Kobe, the most talented basketball player in the world. But, competitive as he may be, nobody is going to want it more than the Mavs (except the Celtics for KG and Allen, perhaps).

That certainly doesn't guarantee a win, but it will serve them well.

I really don't know how you can say that. And anyway, I am not a big fan of reducing a basketball debate into completely subjective and unmeasurable things like: "leadership", "soft or tough", "choker", "wanting it more". To me there are always basketball reasons that explain a win or a loss. I think we have come up with a lot of them for the Mavs the last two seasons.

Janett_Reno · 02-22-2008, 06:20 PM

I like Dampier but i want Avery to play him and play big. I do not playing small ball. I know in the end it is losing ball. It was no better than Phx playing small ball and they won zero titles with it. They were the most excitting if that counted. It looks like maybe we will pick up Magloire and this would really help our back line. This year and now.

endrity · 02-22-2008, 06:21 PM

we are picking Magloire? Link please, cause that is really some good news.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

I really don't know how you can say that. And anyway, I am not a big fan of reducing a basketball debate into completely subjective and unmeasurable things like: "leadership", "soft or tough", "choker", "wanting it more". To me there are always basketball reasons that explain a win or a loss. I think we have come up with a lot of them for the Mavs the last two seasons.

Well that's just sort of short-sighted, no offense. Basketball isn't played by robots. Emotions have just as much to do with it, if not more, than X's and O's. Your mistake is one a lot of people make when analyzing a game.

It's not some mindless cliche when he hear a pro athlete say that the game is 90% mental and 10% physical. It's the truth.

As for "how I can say that," the team with the most to prove tends to want it the most. That doesn't mean that the underdog always wins, obviously, but it does mean that they often play with an extra edge.

For example, it's no coincidence that 6 out of the 10 BCS title games that have been played since its inception have been won by the underdog. Those teams almost universally have not been "better" teams--they just came out with an "us against the world" mentality and took it to the favorite.

Janett_Reno · 02-22-2008, 06:31 PM

I have no link but it is a thread someone just posted about the Nets waiving Magloire. It was no way we trade Diop without getting another center(i thought). It just left us way to thin against big back lines in the west. I knew the Nets wanted to move Magloire. I am guessing the numbers did not match up and maybe the Mavs knew the Nets would wave him and maybe Magloire said he would sign with us to do the Harris/Kidd deal.

This is alot of if's but witth Magloire, we do not lose anything with Diop being gone. He will score more, block as many shots and Magloire is more physical. Maybe i am wishing and guessing but he would be a huge pick up for us and fill in our back line. He is good on defense.

LonghornDub · 02-22-2008, 06:32 PM

Yeah, we really need to get Magliore. That would be so awesome.

alexamenos · 02-22-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

It's true that in 06 there was a dropoff from Dirk to the next guy, whoever that was.

It isn't just that there's a drop-off from Dirk to the next guy, it's that the next guy is no better than a lot of guys on a lot of other teams.

Have the teams been reasonably well constructed? Did players meld together well? Did they play their roles? Yeah, yeah and yeah -- that's not necessarily talent but management and coaching.

And....the point in re Bass is not that Avery is so great at spotting talent, but instead it's that the talent differential between New Orleans and Dallas was never that great in the first place, and perhaps New Orleans has had the edge in that regard. To wit...

Quote:

Pop gave up on Udrih and now Sacto is making him their PG of the future. Does that mean Theus is better than Pop? Of course not.

Of course that's not what it means. What it means is that there is a lot more talent in San Antonio than in Sacto, so much so that a guy that was a third stringer pg in SA is looking like the man in Sacto....kind of like Bass not being able to get off the bench in New Orleans but then looking like the greatest maverick offensive player in the paint since Roy Tarpley.

Again, my whole point is that I think people vastly over-estimate the talent that the Mavs have had these last few years. The reason they have won so many games, imho, is not because they are so talented, but instead because they do a lot of little things extremely well and they've played with a tremendous edge, night in and night out....they lost a bit of that edge this season, and I think what we're getting this season is a real indication of what kind of team they are based on talent.

alternatively stated....if the mavs did what they did in '06 and '07 because of their amazing talent levels, then how do we explain their shortcomings this season? Did their talent really fall that much when they gave up Buckner and Croshere and acquired Jones and Bass?