Iverson is still the man. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 01-08-2006, 02:10 PM

33.1 ppg
3.2 rpg
7.3 apg
2.12 spg
.448 FG% (wow!)
.323 3P%
.785 FT%

The Answer has also cut down on his turnovers, and leads the league in FT attempts. Not only has he not slowed down at the age of 30, but he's also become one of the most efficient players in the league. AI is ever the badass.

Dtownsfinest · 01-08-2006, 03:08 PM

I wonder what's the knock on him now? He's shooting the ball great, scoring at will and is playing great defense. Are we going to complain about his 3 point percentage now? The guy is greatness. I use to think he was a top 20 player but not top 15. I see no reason why this guy isn't top 5 material. One of the best players in the league. He's also one of the best proffesionals. He's come a long way as far as becoming a better man goes.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-08-2006, 03:24 PM

Top 5? I've always thought he was top 3. Really, I think he's the second best player in the league (as much as it pains me to say, behind Kobe)

rabbitproof · 01-08-2006, 03:26 PM

And he wants to represent for Team USA!

Always liked the guy's fearlessness and crossover but now he's a complete player, not just an amazing scorer.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-08-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

And he wants to represent for Team USA!

Always liked the guy's fearlessness and crossover but now he's a complete player, not just an amazing scorer.

Iverson's always been a complete player... Really, the only thing I didn't like about his game was the turnovers. He was always a great passer, but I never understood why everyone maligned him for being this terrible ballhog, when he never had anything resembling a reliable scorer next to him... Whenever he had even decent players next to him, the Sixers traded them away. Honestly, who the hell was he supposed to share the ball with? Jerry Stackhouse? Glenn Robinson? I thought the tandem of Eric Snow and KVH was a decent supporting cast for AI, but the Sixers traded them away too... Also, Larry Brown moved him to the 2 which of course diminished his assist totals.

Still, the only thing AI's doing different is shooting a better percentage and committing fewer turnovers. He's always throughout his career been a great passer, and a truly phenominal off the ball defender.

DubOverdose · 01-08-2006, 04:11 PM

Don't care for the guy. He has all the talent in the world, but he's a loser.

Hitman · 01-08-2006, 05:16 PM

He is an amazing talent. Breathtaking, once in a lifetime talent.

But he will never win an NBA title as the main option.

alby · 01-08-2006, 08:17 PM

it definitely wouldn't be his fault if he doesn't win an NBA title

twelli · 01-08-2006, 08:25 PM

If LeBron continues to grow in the right direction, the kobes and iversons will soon be forgotten. He does everything that those two do, and he's just warming up...

Murphy3 · 01-08-2006, 10:04 PM

Top 5? No...He might be back in the top 10, but let's not go overboard.

WayOutWest · 01-09-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Top 5? No...He might be back in the top 10, but let's not go overboard.

Agreed. Fantastic offensive players like Iverson, T-Mac and even LeBron seem to get a pass on defense. They are not good defenders, some by choice others by circumstance. While Iverson's speed really helps with steals, his small NBA size hurts him on D. AI can't really even challenge a spot up jumpshooter because of his height.

Iverson is definately top 10 but his lack of D keeps him out of the top 5.

Murphy3 · 01-09-2006, 04:40 PM

Not practicing doesn't help either...But hey, it's just practice.

AxdemxO · 01-09-2006, 06:42 PM

AI is prolly in the top 10 and prolly at the end of his carrer wil b top 5.
People shouldnt use his size against hiM, it one of the things that makes the stuff he does even more amazing.

people love to HATE.

WayOutWest · 01-09-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

AI is prolly in the top 10 and prolly at the end of his carrer wil b top 5.
People shouldnt use his size against hiM, it one of the things that makes the stuff he does even more amazing.

people love to HATE.

I'm not using his size against him, other players are doing that making AI a defensive liability.

Dtownsfinest · 01-09-2006, 10:00 PM

AI's a defensive liability? Man WTF? Have you ever seen AI's defense closing games?

#1MavsFan · 01-09-2006, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Don't care for the guy. He has all the talent in the world, but he's a loser.

He's a loser? He did get his team to the finals before. If you consider that being a loser, you have to consider Dirk, KG, TMAC, Lebron, etc all losers as well.

Also Dtownsfinest has it down right, AI is actually considered a pretty great defender.

After all he was named Big East Defensive Player of the Year in 1995 and 1996.
Last season he got 6 NBA All-Defensive first team votes.

He's a much better defender than a lot of you guys give him credit for. He's for sure a top 5 talent, try and name 5 players more valuable to their team's success than AI.

Drbio · 01-09-2006, 11:54 PM

prolly? wtf?

AI is a talented baller. I think we can all agree on that. Dub is probably referring to his demeanor so you simply cannot compare him to the likes of Dirk, TMac, LeBron, etc. Those guys aren't "thugs" which is what I think Dub was leaning towards.

I've read some good stuff on AI for his off-the-court life. Of course, I've read and heard a ton of bad stuff too.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-10-2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twelli

If LeBron continues to grow in the right direction, the kobes and iversons will soon be forgotten. He does everything that those two do, and he's just warming up...

That's ridiculous. Really, that'd be like saying Bird and Magic are forgotten because of MJ. If AI is forgotten (which I seriously doubt will happen anytime soon), it won't be because of LeBron.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-10-2006, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

Agreed. Fantastic offensive players like Iverson, T-Mac and even LeBron seem to get a pass on defense. They are not good defenders, some by choice others by circumstance. While Iverson's speed really helps with steals, his small NBA size hurts him on D. AI can't really even challenge a spot up jumpshooter because of his height.

Are guys f*cking kidding me? Murphy, you obviously have an axe to grind with Iverson, because he's putting up (again) one of the most statistically dominant seasons in recent years. And you guys are telling me you can name five players who are having a better season? Nonsense.

Quote:

Iverson is definately top 10 but his lack of D keeps him out of the top 5.

W.O.W., first of all, have you ever actually watched Iverson play? Because if your knock on his game is "his lack of D" then I have trouble believing you have. Iverson is a very good defender despite his size.

And furthermore, you say defense or lackthereof keeps Iverson out of the top 5... You mention LeBron and T-Mac in the same sentence (which is also unwarranted because T-Mac is an excellent defender) Anyway, does your logic apply to every player, or just Iverson? What I mean is, are T-Mac, LeBron and everyone else you don't see to be great defensive players excluded from the top 5? If so, please tell me who's your top 5...

Arne · 01-10-2006, 06:48 AM

Iverson has really grown on me. I started to really love the guy during the Olympics, when he was one of the best players and showed a great positive attitude.

His stats this year are amazing and there's hardly anybody who had as little support from other good players on his team throughout his career than Iverson. He's a great guy and a fierce competitor.

His defense is alright and he's really improved the efficiency of his scoring. I'd really like to see him play with a guy like Shaq.

Anyways, he's a great guy to have in this league and a lot of fun to watch.

chumdawg · 01-10-2006, 10:53 AM

He's pretty much the best pound-for-pound player in the game.

WayOutWest · 01-10-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And furthermore, you say defense or lackthereof keeps Iverson out of the top 5... You mention LeBron and T-Mac in the same sentence (which is also unwarranted because T-Mac is an excellent defender) Anyway, does your logic apply to every player, or just Iverson? What I mean is, are T-Mac, LeBron and everyone else you don't see to be great defensive players excluded from the top 5? If so, please tell me who's your top 5...

I mention those guys as well because I DON'T consider them top 5.

My top five (today anyway):
TD: no doubt he's the best of the best, everthing you want in a franchise player. Plays hard on both ends of the court and more importantly he's very effective.

Shaq: Snack or Shaq is really going down fast but is still the most dominant player in the game today. If his last few games are any indication he may drop out of the top five next year.

KG :most versitle player in the league today on BOTH ends of the court.

Kobe: his offense is as good as anyone's including AI and he puts alot of effort in on D and can lock players down in short spurts.

Amare: before he was hurt he was a budding superstar. Very good defender and a bull on offense in the paint. He's eventually going to have to learn some finess moves because he won't always have that tremendous athletic ability to jump over and through defenders. You always want your bigman to be an inside precense and Amare is on both offense and defense.

The rest:
Dirk : been spending alot of time dicsussing this guy on another forum and have moved this guy up a couple of notches. His offense has always been excellent. His rebounding numbers are very good but I still have my doubts about the way he gets his rebounds and the effort he puts in on defense. I really have to try and catch more Dallas games but I don't have League Pass so I can only catch nationally televised games.

JO/Brand: solid franchise players. These guys are solid bread and butter type players on both ends of the court. JO is a bit more refined on the offensive end but Brand is a harder worker on defense plus he's not a big crybaby like JO.

AI: has always been a dangerous offensive weapon but his shot selection and shooting % have always been a knock on this guy. He's improved in both those area's this year and is having a fantastic year. While AI's quickness helps keep him in front of players it's very easy for the average NBA guard to shot over him. Players are not blowing by AI but nobody has any trouble shooting over him.

LeBron: what can you say about this guy, he's everything the hype promised. I don't consider him a good defender. I don't see much effort from him on D nor do I see him get critical stops when the Cavs need one.

T-Mac: very much like Kobe without the effort on D. While his size prevents most guards from posting him up his easy going style on D IMO is a big drawback.

kg_veteran · 01-10-2006, 11:13 AM

Just passing through the thread, and I noticed that WOW referred to Amare Stoudemire as a very good defender.

Huh? He's a horrible defender with very little interest in playing defense.

WayOutWest · 01-10-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Just passing through the thread, and I noticed that WOW referred to Amare Stoudemire as a very good defender.

Huh? He's a horrible defender with very little interest in playing defense.

Maybe it's a playoffs thing with Amare because he's excellent in the playoffs. Patrols the paint and he's an excellent at helping from the weak side. Most of what I've seen from Amare is against Duncan, can't gauge it any better than that.

aexchange · 01-10-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

Maybe it's a playoffs thing with Amare because he's excellent in the playoffs. Patrols the paint and he's an excellent at helping from the weak side. Most of what I've seen from Amare is against Duncan, can't gauge it any better than that.

must be. amare is worse on D than dirk was his first 2 years in the league. amare is a walking turnstile on D.

WayOutWest · 01-10-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

must be. amare is worse on D than dirk was his first 2 years in the league. amare is a walking turnstile on D.

To a certain extent I agre, Amare is one of those guys that relys on the shot block instead of good footwork and position. Right now it works but he's not going to be 20ish for ever.

kg_veteran · 01-10-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

Maybe it's a playoffs thing with Amare because he's excellent in the playoffs. Patrols the paint and he's an excellent at helping from the weak side. Most of what I've seen from Amare is against Duncan, can't gauge it any better than that.

Duncan scored over 27 ppg on 52.7% FG shooting in that series. I agree that Amare is a decent weakside shotblocker, but that's about it. He's an awful man-to-man defender who just figures he'll dominate on the other end. Of course, he's usually right about that.

DeusDeOmini · 01-10-2006, 02:47 PM

LMAO. Amare is so overatted, im sorry, but calling him good on Defense is just a joke.
And Amare is a bad defensive rebounder for the freak of nature athlete he is. He pulls down 8 boards a game, and im pretty sure 2 or 3 of those are offensive. Dirk is so much better then Amare its not even funny. Take Nash off the Suns, Astare (I call him that because of the way the refs officiated him, especially in the Mavs series, we couldn't breathe on him) and he'd put up 22/9 at best.

Dwight Howard has way more upside, he can rebound and play D lightyears better....put him with Nash and see how his O looks.

aexchange · 01-10-2006, 03:10 PM

just don't have a lot of respect for any player that calls himself black jesus.

chumdawg · 01-10-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Duncan scored over 27 ppg on 52.7% FG shooting in that series. I agree that Amare is a decent weakside shotblocker, but that's about it. He's an awful man-to-man defender who just figures he'll dominate on the other end. Of course, he's usually right about that.

Yeah, but that's Tim Duncan you are talking about.

By way of comparison, Amare scored 37 a game, on 55%. What, if anything, does that say about Duncan's defense?

Five-ofan · 01-10-2006, 04:15 PM

A) Shaq hasnt been the most dominant player in the league for at least 3 years and that catch phrase is getting damn old. He is still the biggest player in the game but he isnt dominant anymore. B) Amare is terrible defensively. Dont knock AI who while not the defender his stats make him look like, is still above average defensively for his D and then praise amare for his. C) pretty much your whole list looks like it was written by someone whos sole source of bball is espn highlights. That is very bad.

WayOutWest · 01-10-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

A) Shaq hasnt been the most dominant player in the league for at least 3 years and that catch phrase is getting damn old. He is still the biggest player in the game but he isnt dominant anymore. B) Amare is terrible defensively. Dont knock AI who while not the defender his stats make him look like, is still above average defensively for his D and then praise amare for his. C) pretty much your whole list looks like it was written by someone whos sole source of bball is espn highlights. That is very bad.

A.)Said that already about Shaq.
B.)Said that already about AI.
C.)Pretty much your whole post indicates you can't think for yourself. Give it a try, it's tons of fun.

I don't watch ESPN except for Poker. My opinions come from watching the games. Often I will use stats to back up my opinion but I don't use stats as the sole source for my opinion. I'm also not a homer, that's the biggest problem with team based boards.

kg_veteran · 01-10-2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Yeah, but that's Tim Duncan you are talking about.

By way of comparison, Amare scored 37 a game, on 55%. What, if anything, does that say about Duncan's defense?

That it was pretty poor in that series, to the extent that he was covering Amare (other guys spent time on him as well), but we already both agree that Amare is a dominant offensive force.

Amare has the tools to be a good defender one day, but he's not one now.

AxdemxO · 01-10-2006, 05:24 PM

Not many guys can do wht Iverson can, the guy is just amazing.

Now as far as Shaq...i think he is overrated.
I say tht because if he is 3 feet from the basket he is useless offensevly.
All he does is use his size and dunk other thn tht he doesnt do anythin else.
He is the reason the Lakers won those championships , not Kobe.
But Shaq is done.

snoop · 01-10-2006, 06:14 PM

Iverson is the poster child of the shelfish NBA player. I think for all his talent which is incredible, he will always be the player who becomes a blackhole when it matters.

#1MavsFan · 01-10-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoop

Iverson is the poster child of the shelfish NBA player. I think for all his talent which is incredible, he will always be the player who becomes a blackhole when it matters.

Please, he had no one on his teams before who did you want him to pass the ball to? Everyone knew he had to pretty much carry those Sixer teams if they were to get anywhere. Also he's averaging over 7 assists a game this season. When a player not on someone’s favorite team is having an amazing season why must they try and bring him down?

Dtownsfinest · 01-11-2006, 04:39 AM

How many times has the word "overrated" been used lol. Everyones overrated according to this thread. The word "overrated" is beginning to become overrated it seems and most of the time misused.

WayOutWest · 01-11-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

How many times has the word "overrated" been used lol. Everyones overrated according to this thread. The word "overrated" is beginning to become overrated it seems and most of the time misused.

I'll be the first to say your post is overrated!

alby · 01-13-2006, 03:22 PM

i know one thing.

Iverson is not overrated.

imagine being that size but still doing so well for so long

Thespiralgoeson · 01-14-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

I
Amare: before he was hurt he was a budding superstar. Very good defender and a bull on offense in the paint. He's eventually going to have to learn some finess moves because he won't always have that tremendous athletic ability to jump over and through defenders. You always want your bigman to be an inside precense and Amare is on both offense and defense.

ARE YOU NUTS????? Amare is a horrible defender! Son, you need to start watching basketball before you talk about players like T-Mac, LeBron and Iverson being out of the top 5 because of their defense, and then you name Amare Stoudemire. I'll give you LeBron; not a great defender. But Iverson and T-Mac are both excellent defenders. They're not quite on the same level defensively as Kobe, but very few are.