Butler/Haywood/Stevenson to the Mavs!!

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well I think ideally you bump Dirk back to 35 minutes a night if possible. So that's 13 minutes a night that Marion plays PF and Caron plays SF, theoretically. And I'm sure Caron will get some burn at SF next to Dirk at PF while Marion sits.

Okay, that makes sense. Good reasoning.

My only question is: Who is playing shooting guard all this time?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay, that makes sense. Good reasoning.

My only question is: Who is playing shooting guard all this time?

Jet?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Jet?

Ugh. That wasn't how I drew it up.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Ugh. That wasn't how I drew it up.

Well...I mean how many minutes do you think Jet should play? He's certainly not dipping below 30. So Caron's playing, at most, 18 minutes a night at SG.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I couldn't figure out why it wasn't moving. If you know what I did wrong, let me know and I'll change it.

Did you download it and upload it to the site? Or link to it directly using the link I gave you?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well...I mean how many minutes do you think Jet should play? He's certainly not dipping below 30. So Caron's playing, at most, 18 minutes a night at SG.

I think he should play 15 to 18 minutes per game.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

I find this awkward division of the man's time as a Mavs kind of strange and missing my point...I agree that he was much better than his draft position...so in that sense, the fact that he is still in the league (and a valuable player) makes him (and will ALWAYS make him) a huge success.

but as a Mavs player in total...when you contrast expectation with production, it was a failure.

I'm not trying to give him a grade...just an evaluation of the end results.

no?

Well..I guess it's just semantics more than anything. I just don't agree that calling Josh's tenure here a failure is accurate.

[BGMaverick9]

You think Jet should only get 15-18 minutes a game?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think he should play 15 to 18 minutes per game.

Well...that's just not happening. Hell I'll be happy if he's not automatically on the floor to end every game...which I think is probably wishful thinking at this point.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well...that's just not happening. Hell I'll be happy if he's not automatically on the floor to end every game...which I think is probably wishful thinking at this point.

Exactly, 15-18 isn't remotely possible. He's averaging around 34-35. I think the biggest drop you could see is maybe, but highly unlikely, to 25ish

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Exactly, 15-18 isn't remotely possible. He's averaging around 34-35. I think the biggest drop you could see is maybe, but highly unlikely, to 25ish

If he's just going to stay at 34, why make the trade?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If he's just going to stay at 34, why make the trade?

I didn't say he was going to stay at 34, but he's definitely not going down to 15-18.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If he's just going to stay at 34, why make the trade?

Well first of all, he replaces Josh's minutes. That's 27 minutes a night.

I, personally, would hope that Jet's minutes get knocked down to maybe 30. That would seem reasonable. But if you knocked him down to 20 minutes a night...who do you give the minutes too? I mean do you want to give Stevenson regular minutes? That just doesn't make sense.

Jason Terry is absolutely valuable enough to play 30 minutes a night, unless he's just ice cold. I just don't think he should automatically be on the court to finish every game. Hopefully now that he's no longer the second best scoring option on the team, that will change.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well first of all, he replaces Josh's minutes. That's 27 minutes a night.

I, personally, would hope that Jet's minutes get knocked down to maybe 30. That would seem reasonable. But if you knocked him down to 20 minutes a night...who do you give the minutes too? I mean do you want to give Stevenson regular minutes? That just doesn't make sense.

Jason Terry is absolutely valuable enough to play 30 minutes a night, unless he's just ice cold. I just don't think he should automatically be on the court to finish every game. Hopefully now that he's no longer the second best scoring option on the team, that will change.

I'll give him 24 minutes a game. Any more than that, and it means that the guys above him in the rotation aren't that good.

[BGMaverick9]

Looking at Butler's logs for games, the guy logs heavy minutes. Even with most people's rough estimates he'll get reduced minutes by 3-5/game.

The first round of plotting has Jet at 28-30 minutes a night for me.

[Robillion]

why arent more people showing their excitement on here!? This trade is an absolute huge win for the Mavs. It's as if one of our crazy trade machine trade ideas actually worked. I am ecstatic that we pulled this off. Caron Butler AND Brendan Haywood. Annd.. now, I really have no doubt that the Mavs FO are going to be able to pull off something big this summer.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Looking at Butler's logs for games, the guy logs heavy minutes. Even with most people's rough estimates he'll get reduced minutes by 3-5/game.

The first round of plotting has Jet at 28-30 minutes a night for me.

I'd be happier (depending on the opponent and how hot he is running) with JT getting 24 a night.

[Flacolaco]

Wait... What happened? We acquired another 30 year old?

Wooo

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Wait... What happened? We acquired another 30 year old?

Wooo

Boo this man.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Wait... What happened? We acquired another 30 year old?

Wooo

this better be fake grump

[mavsfan4lyfe201]

this move will cut down marions minutes if any..it does make the roation a little complicated..but we also have a 13 man roster which is good or now

i see najera not playin much..and dirk takin some time at the 5 with damp gettin rest..

so well sometimes see kidd-jet-butler-marion-dirk?

sounds dangerous...

lets wait and see who we use the TPE on..thinks are lookin good

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by mavsfan4lyfe201

so well sometimes see kidd-jet-butler-marion-dirk?

sounds dangerous...

...for the opposition

[alby]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Boo this man.

What did you expect from flaco?

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Boo this man.

Alright, alright...I have read through most of this thread and have witnessed the excitement going on around here yesterday while I was apparently somewhere else.

I stand by what I said, however. I may be a bonafide basketball idiot, but the Mavs have looked OLD to me the last month when I am able to catch a game. Acquiring a 30 year old doesn't make my pants go nuts in that regard.

However, it was painfully obvious a shakeup was needed. Hopefully the break combined with the trade means a re-motivated Mavs team. I'll defer to you b-ball nerd types who are all excited about this. I am so obligated to pay the closest of close attention to anything NHL related these days that the Mavericks have been rather unfortunately shoved to the periphery. I hope to change that post All-Star break.

[BGMaverick9]

I think we've got our Robin now and we got better at the center position. It's all got to mesh together, but if it does then the two major problems for this organization hopefully have been solved.

I really can't wait for them to hit the ground running.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I may be a bonafide basketball idiot,

granted, but go on.

but the Mavs have looked OLD to me the last month when I am able to catch a game. Acquiring a 30 year old doesn't make my pants go nuts in that regard.

I hope that was intended...if so, bravo.


I'm always happy when the grump shows up...

[grndmstr_c]

I don't see any way JET's minutes drop significantly below 30 mpg. Part of that is because his shooting is still valuable and necessary. But part of that is also because the rotation can easily accommodate that much on-court time for him. I don't think it's unreasonable that Dirk will get an average of 4-5 mpg at center depending on matchups, putting him at PF for another 32 mpg. With Marion getting the bulk of the remaining 16 mpg there and another 18-20 mpg at SF, that leaves 28-30 mpg at SF and 18 mpg at SG up for grabs. With that you can easily give Caron 36 mpg and still have some minutes left over for situational contributions from your bench guys, including Booby, JJB, Stevenson, Najera and TT (if he ever makes it back).

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I don't see any way JET's minutes drop significantly below 30 mpg. Part of that is because his shooting is still valuable and necessary. But part of that is also because the rotation can easily accommodate that much on-court time for him. I don't think it's unreasonable that Dirk will get an average of 4-5 mpg at center depending on matchups, putting him at PF for another 32 mpg. With Marion getting the bulk of the remaining 16 mpg there and another 18-20 mpg at SF, that leaves 28-30 mpg at SF and 18 mpg at SG up for grabs. With that you can easily give Caron 36 mpg and still have some minutes left over for situational contributions from your bench guys, including Booby, JJB, Stevenson, Najera and TT (if he ever makes it back).

funny you broke it down like that, this is what I've got:
Haywood (31), Damp (14), Dirk (3)
Dirk (35), Marion (13)
Marion (20), Butler (25), Stevenson (3)
Butler (12), Jet (31), Stevenson/JJ/Roddy (4)
Kidd (36), JJ (10), Roddy (2)

[sike]

It is a VERY exciting thought that (Health pending) there would not have to be a scrub player ever on the floor.

I'm sure JJB will still find his way out there occasionally, but in the right limited role, he is perfectly adequate.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I stand by what I said, however. I may be a bonafide basketball idiot, but the Mavs have looked OLD to me the last month when I am able to catch a game. Acquiring a 30 year old doesn't make my pants go nuts in that regard.

Your pessimism has no backing (again). This time it's because the Mavs didn't actually get any older, unless you're going to nitpick that one month Butler has over Howard.

[badfish22]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Your pessimism has no backing (again). This time it's because the Mavs didn't actually get any older, unless you're going to nitpick that one month Butler has over Howard.

Howard actually has that month over Caron, if I'm not mistaken.
If you're going to complain over this fleecing thats causing panic and many curses over on Spur and Nugget boards, than I have no idea what to tell you. I guess you are not able to be satisfied at this point.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Your pessimism has no backing (again). This time it's because the Mavs didn't actually get any older, unless you're going to nitpick that one month Butler has over Howard.

Haywood is 4 years younger than Damp. That is huge in my book.

[BGMaverick9]

I know it's nothing huge but on Sportscenter they were talking about NBA 2nd half storylines and Jon Barry said in the West Dallas is the team to watch. They need to see if all the new pieces can mesh together and if so they've got a solid chance to pass by Denver and meet up with the Lakers in the WCF.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I know it's nothing huge but on Sportscenter they were talking about NBA 2nd half storylines and Jon Barry said in the West Dallas is the team to watch. They need to see if all the new pieces can mesh together and if so they've got a solid chance to pass by Denver and meet up with the Lakers in the WCF.

Jon Barry has often done right by our Mavs...thanks for the heads up, BGM.

[badfish22]

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/1...ywoods-defense

It has taken years, but Brendan Haywood has started getting more recognition for the good defense he plays on a bad defensive team. One thing that came out of last season's debacle was a broader understanding of the on-court defensive quarterbacking Haywood has provided to this team. Dwight Howard recently mentioned Haywood as someone he thinks should be an all-defense team candidate. Howard noted Haywood's blocks per game average, which, at 2.1, is the highest of Brendan's career and puts him currently at 6th in the league. He is also averaging career highs in defensive and total rebounds (and offensive rebounds) per game, with 10.6 per game total, good for 9th in the league.

But what can we learn about his defense this year, and for his career, from numbers other than his per games?



Haywood's headline stats this season should be put in the context of his minutes. He is averaging a career high in minutes per game, sitting currently at 33.7 per, almost 6 more minutes per game than he has ever before gotten. In that context, the blocks per game number that is getting him noticed is just to be expected. His blocks per minute this season is actually just about perfectly on target with his career average. For his career, Haywood is at 2.2 blocks per 36 minutes. (How differently might he be viewed as a player if he had gotten more minutes more years, allowing him to boost his per games?)

What really is interesting about his blocks this year, however, is that he has maintained them at that level while dramatically cutting back on his fouls. He has rarely been in foul trouble this year, and is averaging one fewer foul per 36 minutes than over his career. That's an impressive development. The only other top-10 shot-blockers fouling at such a low rate are Tim Duncan and Marcus Camby. Not bad company.

Unlike Haywood's shot-blocking, his rebounding this season has not been a mere "per-minute" phenomenon. His rebounding rate, viewed either in per-minute terms or as a percentage of available rebounds, really has increased. He is at career highs in every rebounding category, no matter how you look at it.

While this didn't surprise me, a few instances this season of Haywood fighting teammates for a rebound stuck in my mind (Phil Chenier has mentioned it a time or two, even dropping the phrase "contract push" and chuckling), leading me to wonder whether Brendan was just ensuring that he got his hands on more to make sure this year that if he created the space for the Wizards to get the rebound, then he got the ball and the credit. This apparently has not been the case. Haywood is actually having a bigger impact on the team's rebounding than ever before.

The Wizards rebounding rate is more than 5% better (!) with Haywood on the floor than off. This is true both on the defensive boards and on the offensive boards. Looking at the other top-10 per-game rebounders, no one else even comes close to doing that. A couple of guys are showing a similar impact in one or the other, but no one comes at all close to doing it in both. The league leader last year was Kevin Love, at 4%. Haywood has throughout his career had a positive impact on team rebounding, including two seasons of 2.5%+, which is fairly impressive itself, but is still nothing like what he is doing now.

Considering the apparent magnitude of the impact Haywood is having and how weak the rebounding has been without him on the floor (the team has gotten only 45.8% of total rebounds without him), the figures may partly be due simply to a lack of other good rebounders on the team swallowing up boards. But still. That probably just knocks down Haywood rebounding stats from completely absurd, to merely extremely good.

So, in three individual categories tied to defense--blocks, rebounding, and fouling, Haywood having a remarkably good season. Of course, to get an all-defense nod on this disappointing team, with its below-average defense (no matter how you look at it, near the bottom of the league), would probably take much better headline stats than Haywood has, and probably a bigger league-wide reputation. But how much worse might the Wizards' defense might be without him?

At a glance, one could easily argue that the Wizards might have a league-worst, perhaps even historically bad defense without him. In his absence last season, the team finished next-to-last in the league in defensive efficiency. Along with Blatche's return, they essentially added three players not known as defenders (Foye and Miller) to two starters who were a year older (Blatche and Butler), and on top of it eventually went with a horribly weak backup PG (Boykins). So, leaving aside Haywood's return, there is every reason to think this year's defense could be worse than last year's. The numbers bear that out. The team's defensive efficiency when Haywood is off the floor is even worse than last year's team figure.

There is a difference of around 5 points per 100 possessions between when Haywood is on and off the floor. That puts him in the top 40 in the league at this point in the season. That type of plus/minus stat can be fluky and prone to anomalies and sample size problems. But, here, it is important that is fairly in line with the numbers he and the team have posted throughout his career. The lowest figure was 2.5 in 07-08, the biggest was 10 points in 04-05, and other seasons have been around 4 to 6 points. Such a consistent apparent contribution over such a long time is impressive.

(All that said, it is interesting that Andray Blatche has a set of numbers this year that are nearly as good, and that three of the team's four highest-rated defensive lineups with 25 minutes or more have included both players. But, Haywood has been part of more of the team's successful defensive lineups. On the other hand, Blatche has more frequently been stuck with Boykins, etc., so make of that what you will. Two players on the team have topped Haywood/Blatche's ratings this year--Oberto and Stevenson.)

So, Haywood is having another good defensive season, probably his best, on another bad defensive Wizards team. As the trade deadline draws near, it will be interesting to see whether the Wizards move him and his expiring contract, and even if not, what sort of trades he gets mentioned in. Butler gets brought up a lot, and Jamison-to-Cavs just won't die, but you would think some contender would want to go after Haywood, who has for a long time likely been undervalued and underappreciated by this franchise.

If they end up keeping him and he becomes a free agent, the decision that will need to be made after the season gets no easier.

[Underdog]

What really is interesting about [Haywood's] blocks this year, however, is that he has maintained them at that level while dramatically cutting back on his fouls. He has rarely been in foul trouble this year

That's really good to hear - at least we won't be getting back to the days where Damp/Diop had 10+ fouls between them by the end of a game...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Alright, alright...I have read through most of this thread and have witnessed the excitement going on around here yesterday while I was apparently somewhere else.

I stand by what I said, however. I may be a bonafide basketball idiot, but the Mavs have looked OLD to me the last month when I am able to catch a game. Acquiring a 30 year old doesn't make my pants go nuts in that regard.

However, it was painfully obvious a shakeup was needed. Hopefully the break combined with the trade means a re-motivated Mavs team. I'll defer to you b-ball nerd types who are all excited about this. I am so obligated to pay the closest of close attention to anything NHL related these days that the Mavericks have been rather unfortunately shoved to the periphery. I hope to change that post All-Star break.

Well..I mean this isn't football. 30 isn't really old. The only time I'm worried about a player being 30 is if that player came straight out of high school and has been playing major minutes since he was 20 or so.

30 is actually relatively young for centers. More than anything, I think you'll find that both Haywood and Butler are going to bring a certain energy and toughness that will replace the gimpiness (Damp) and lethargy (Josh most of the time) that has been contributing to this team looking old.

I can't remember the last time I spent this much time over a weekend consuming basketball info. I am very, very pumped right now. Now admittedly I'm a sucker for a trade. The GM/transaction process of the NBA fascinates me. But I'm more pumped about this trade than any I can remember. I think it's mainly for having found what should be our starting center for the next four or five years.

And for some bizarre reason, my company takes Presidents' Day off, so I get to continue that weekend through today. I'm itching to see some interviews from practice with the new guys. I wonder if they'll have a presser?

[alexamenos]

Great pic UD.

Wtf was Washington thinking? Have they not watched Josh not play since his little butt-buddy went to NJ?

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I know it's nothing huge but on Sportscenter they were talking about NBA 2nd half storylines and Jon Barry said in the West Dallas is the team to watch. They need to see if all the new pieces can mesh together and if so they've got a solid chance to pass by Denver and meet up with the Lakers in the WCF.

I truly HATE the Lakers!!! I so hope that they get surprised and upset early, leaving room for a Dallas-Denver or some other two teams in the WCF!!!

All the experts handing the Lakers another trophy, piss me off even more...more than certain political talks...but then hey, what do I know.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Did you download it and upload it to the site? Or link to it directly using the link I gave you?

I tried to link directly, but that doesn't seem to be working, so I downloaded it.