Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[sike]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

In most instances I would agree with you on the talent disparity level, but not in the case of Shaq.

Can't hold the teams Shaq faced in the finals as a mark against him. You're only responsible to play in your own era. And the simple fact is that once Shaq learned the league (post Hakeem taking baby Shaq to his knee)...he dominated all comers.

I know the West that Magic's Lakers dominated wasn't so strong in the 80's...it was clearly the Lakers and everybody else. Bird's Celts did get some competition from some stout Sixers and Bucks teams...but still not to the same level of overall talent of that of his Celtics.

Simply put, Magic and Bird never won a championship with less than 2 other Hall of Famers alongside them. So at the very least, you MUST admit that played a huge role in them being such "winners". The same simply cannot be said for Shaq.

Either way, I would still choose Shaq in a second over Bird or Magic. On principle alone.

Win it with Bigs.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by sike

Can't hold the teams Shaq faced in the finals as a mark against him. You're only responsible to play in your own era. And the simple fact is that once Shaq learned the league (post Hakeem taking baby Shaq to his knee)...he dominated all comers.

I'm not trying to hold it against him, as in discounting his titles. I'm just trying to put the help Magic and Bird got into proper perspective. Yes, they played with multiple HOF players. But they were also battling teams with multiple HOF players to get the title. The advantage isn't as pronounced as it seems by simply saying "look at all the help Magic had". He didn't have any more help than Bird, Moses or Isiah. Shaq had more help.

Originally Posted by sike

I know the West that Magic's Lakers dominated wasn't so strong in the 80's...it was clearly the Lakers and everybody else. Bird's Celts did get some competition from some stout Sixers and Bucks teams...but still not to the same level of overall talent of that of his Celtics.

Yeah the 80's West was pretty weak. But Magic still had to beat a team with multiple HOF players for each title. I think the Celtics had a tougher road in the East with the Sixers and Celtics, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Bird has less Finals appeareances and titles.

And why would you choose Shaq over Hakeem? How exactly was he more dominant? Are you only considering offense? Because Shaq clearly played with more help than Hakeem and Hakeem's peak (94/95) was higher than Shaq's. Mainly 95. I never saw Shaq look as dominant as Hakeem looked in the 95 postseason.

[sike]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

And why would you choose Shaq over Hakeem?

Like I've already said, its close in my book. But Shaq at his extended prime was simply an unstoppable physical force. I said this earlier, but on a list like this (25 greatest, etc), Shaq's titles and unparallelled impact on the NBA during his reign set him slightly above The Dream.

I never saw Shaq look as dominant as Hakeem looked in the 95 postseason.

Kobe might have something to do with that. I'm sure given the opportunity Shaq would have put up even more gaudy numbers than he did...but that youngster needed his shots.