Big 3 can't play D - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavs playa · 02-06-2003, 03:03 AM

I believe this is the biggest reason the Mavs can't improve their team defense and seriously contend for the championship this year. The way I look at it, there must be at least 3 good defenders on the floor at one time to play solid team defense. With the big 3 being on the court most of the time, Nellie can only put 2 defenders in, which seldom is the case anyway. We all know Nellie doesn't like to sacrifice too much offense for defense so he tends to go with his best offensive lineup. With the Big 3 plus Nick and Raef, which all suck on defense by the way, we basically have 5 defensive liabilities on the court. How can they expect to improve overall team defense when each component can't take care of their own individual defensive responsibilities? All the elite teams have at least 3 solid defenders on the court at the same time. Lakers: Their starting unit can all play D. Spurs: Likewise. Sacramento: Bibby, Christie, Divac, Webber(believe it or not) can play D. This is the difference between the Mavs and the other teams. Their players can play both offense and defense while the Big 3 + Nick and Raef are purely offense.

The solution to getting at least 3 good defenders without sacrificing too much offense on the court at the same time: Hypothetically speaking, I believe blockbuster trades are gonna need to be made. We can't move Nash because the offense will not run the same. Can't touch Dirk because each team needs a superstar, right. I hate to say it, but Finley is odd man out and therefore the most expendable. If needed, include Bradley and/or Raef in the mix as well because they are not the defensive pieces we need.

New lineup:

Nash, Eddie Jones(preferably) or Sprewell, Najera, Dirk, Brian Grant.
This gives us a starting lineup with 3 good defenders that will provide a better offense to defensive balance that we need. This is again all hypothetical and only if the Mavs want to get serious about contending for the championship.

LRB · 02-06-2003, 03:39 AM

1st of all Dirk can play some decent D at the 3 or at the 4. Ask Dirk to play D against a true 5 with a postup game and you're asking for trouble. Dirk's just not that good, yet. Ask Brian Grant to play center at 6'8" agains a true center and again you're asking for trouble. Grant is a good spare at the 4 but not much else.

I like Eddie jones, but not enought to give up Fin. Maybe NVE, but not Fin.

Fin can actually play some excellent D. I've seen him do it. We just need to get him back to doing it. Hell of a lot easier to do that than to make a trade.

NVE and Nash are huge defensive liabilities when they play together. Nash can actually play some halfway decent defense if he doesn't get too tired. Solution only play Nash and NVE 1 at a time except maybe for a possesion or two at end of quarters. What we need to do this is a bonafide offensive threat at the 2 and/or 3 besides Fin. Bell has potential, but it needs developing. Griff is overrated and is best used as a seldom used spare. He's a great 9th man at best. The jury is out on Rig. Najera is a huge hustle and garbage scorer but not a go to scorer. Eddie scores at being in the right place at the right time. Walt can play very well, but due to age and wear and tear only every 3rd game or so or he starts to break down.

We need a good swingman who can play D and provide an offensive threat. Notice for all you Spre fans, there is no "D" in Sprewell. He is a bigger version of NVE, but not that much bigger.

Eddie Jones isn't great on offense, but he isn't that bad either. I'd give NVE for him plus cash and maybe even a draft pick. Throw in Esh or Popeye if they want them, even Griff. Don't know if that gets the deal done. But it's worth making an offer IMO. If we can get grant cheap, I'm all for it.

Who i would love is Corey Maggette. He works for one of the dumbest and cheapest owners in basketball. That's the only reason that I think that we would have even a small chance of landing him. Maggette and play the 2 and 3 keeping either Nick or Steve on the bench, or i.e. no small ball. He's young, physical, has great hops, a descent 3pt. shot, played at duke and has good fundamentals including good man to man D. The cash kicker might mean something to cheapass Donald Sterling. I'd use it. Maggette is a FA and we will have to make sure we can keep him or don't pay too much. He is the most obtainable trade that I can think of. So that's who I target.

The other change, put Shawn in as starting center. The Mantis makes a huge difference in our defence. With another good rebounder (Magette) Shawn can go after more blocks and we can do better on the defensive boards. Our 14-0 streak came with Shawn playing much higher minutes. We need him. His cofidence has erroded some by being benched for who knows what. I really don't care. I just know that we need him. We'll have to help protect him agains Shaq. Not one person can play Shaq straight up anyways. So what.

Make these changes and I'll think we'll be in a much better situation.

Murphy3 · 02-06-2003, 08:56 PM

dirk was shaky against the kings early in the game..however, during the second half, he was borderline sensational
fin and nash are ok defenders as well

FlyinGK22 · 02-06-2003, 10:12 PM

first of all, nash is a pretty good defender, finley can be when he wants to, and dirk is also a pretty good defender, just look at the blocks dirk has. ur new lineup can't possibly be attainable. and look at our team now! 38-10 baby! leading the nba! come on, have some confidence. just cuz we lose to a good team in the kings, doesnt mean we need to totally change up our starting lineup.

dude1394 · 02-06-2003, 10:23 PM

Let's see what their defensive statistics are:

Points allowed - 11th. San Antonio, Utah, Portland ahead of us. (Only counting contenders)
Opp FG% - 7th.. San Antonio, Sacremento, Indiana ahead of us.
Blocks - 7th... San Antonio ahead of us.
Steals - 12th... Sacremento, Portland, Utah, Indiana ahead of us.

I fuss about their defense and they can use work, but I don't think this is really killing us necessarily.

But REBOUNDS.. That one looks pretty bad, we are ONLY ahead of UTAH in that department. If there is one thing that I see as hurting us right now it is rebounding, nothing else.

Addition: In other words, I don't agree with your assessment.

dude1394 · 02-07-2003, 12:10 AM

Hey you'all...What did you think about that "flagrant" foul call on raef against sacto????

It looked like he just put a body on his with his hands straight up in the air!! If the mavs are going to be called for "flagrant" fouls like that they'd better NOT actually give a hard foul... Good grief.

OutletPass · 02-07-2003, 01:44 AM

With you on that one Dude. Marginal call at best. Same old story, the officials just don't have much respect for either Raef or Shawn. And that hurts us. Plain and simple. If it weren't the case, we might be able to have the two of them on the floor more often. As it is, it's just too much of a risk.

I also agree with LRB and Mad. Shawn's reduced minutes are hurting us. Say what you will, but he is a defensive force and a big reason why the Mavs got off to such a great start. Why he gets only 12 minutes is beyond me.

Playa, this is your second post on the board, why is it a rip of the Big 3...followed by a "pie in the sky" trade scenario. Did you honestly think it through before you posted...or do you just need the attention. Sounds like you'd like to write for the NY Post or play ESPN rumor monger.

Evilmav2 · 02-07-2003, 02:05 AM

The other change, put Shawn in as starting center. The Mantis makes a huge difference in our defence. With another good rebounder (Magette) Shawn can go after more blocks and we can do better on the defensive boards. Our 14-0 streak came with Shawn playing much higher minutes. We need him. His cofidence has erroded some by being benched for who knows what. I really don't care. I just know that we need him.

Continuing to limit Bradley's minutes will continue to pay untold negative dividends. When he doesn't play, we win a lot of our games. When he does play, we win even more...

Evilmav2 · 02-07-2003, 02:13 AM

And on the same subject... Does anyone want to argue that we would have made the second round of the playoffs, two years ago, without Bradley playing major minutes against Utah?

How about the layups and dunks stats in our Sacramento series last year? Do any of y'all think that would have happened with Bradley playing significant minutes?

Bradley may not be a "hard" player like some folks seem to wish for, but he looks like he is on track to win his third NBA shot-blocking title (even with his recently severely restricted minutes), and anyone who thinks that his play doesn't have anything to do with this years Mavs' improved defensive performance, and our improved (league-leading) record, is a blind, mindless, poontang of a fool...

LRB · 02-07-2003, 05:36 AM

Dude the flagrant on Raef was one of the worst examples of NBA officiating that I've seen this year. It was definitely a foul, but flagrant? Please, I've see Dirk have worse done to him and no foul called on numerous occasions.

BTW Derek Harper is blind enough to be a ref for saying that Raef's call was a good one, while the Jimmy jackson flagrant that nearly took Dirk's head off was a bad call. I like Derek but that was a dumbass thing for him to say and he desperately needs to see his optomitrist ASAP.

FlyinGK22 · 02-07-2003, 12:55 PM

what is up with basketball neway? when a player goes up to shoot and the defender has a hand on him, its a foul? i mean, if your gonna foul, then foul hard baby! get your foul's worth without it being flagrant. i think the mavs take too many weak fouls, they need to foul harder if theyre gonna foul at all.

jayC · 02-07-2003, 01:50 PM

People say we don't but we have to be at least average. The great MJ said the other day that Magic was average. I think the bigger problem is easy points. We rarely get post points . I think it has to do a lot with the pick and roll and screen and roll. Bibby and stojakovic killed us with that we would have been better off defending the shooter that one guy gets driven past someone. Mantis is supposed to be the blanket so let him prove it. Get this his avg block per 48 minutes is 5.48.

Some other guy said " you are never as bad as you think or good as you think." That has to say something. We were horrible in the first quarter and that's the bottom line. I am not sure that we have played a complete game or have gelled well enough. I thought nick was the best player again. He is so underrated on defense. Look their point differential is 10 points. You can dissect a record only so many games.

As far as Divac the other day I thought he was handled pretty well. a solid man defender like Eddie Jones would make a bigger difference. Walt has been huge in some games I thought he shut down Peja. Even rigadeau isn't bad he just needs his confidence. As far as blockbusters maybe one will happen next year. Kg is free in 2004 but so is Nash, Van Exel, and Tariq. The Twolves might be willing to blow up the one man show bit. So its a pipe dream but no more than Rashard Lewis was this past offseason.Making deals know could hender later deals that could happen later.

kepper · 02-07-2003, 11:26 PM

or when kg of the timberwolves be-headed dirk, that was a flagrant without a doubt. the first thing your taught playing b-ball is dont let the other team score easy baskets but dont try to end careers! (especialy when the other players career is going to be a better one then yours!)

<< Dude the flagrant on Raef was one of the worst examples of NBA officiating that I've seen this year. It was definitely a foul, but flagrant? Please, I've see Dirk have worse done to him and no foul called on numerous occasions.

BTW Derek Harper is blind enough to be a ref for saying that Raef's call was a good one, while the Jimmy jackson flagrant that nearly took Dirk's head off was a bad call. I like Derek but that was a dumbass thing for him to say and he desperately needs to see his optomitrist ASAP. >>

MavsFanFinley · 02-08-2003, 12:25 AM

I got this link off of the LMF board. This is from a realiable poster and someone who loves talking defense or lack of for the Mavs.

Is it a true ranking of a player though? They bought in on that board, do you?

Text

dude1394 · 02-08-2003, 12:55 AM

<< The other change, put Shawn in as starting center. The Mantis makes a huge difference in our defence. With another good rebounder (Magette) Shawn can go after more blocks and we can do better on the defensive boards. Our 14-0 streak came with Shawn playing much higher minutes. We need him. His cofidence has erroded some by being benched for who knows what. I really don't care. I just know that we need him.

Continuing to limit Bradley's minutes will continue to pay untold negative dividends. When he doesn't play, we win a lot of our games. When he does play, we win even more... >>

But shawn does have to show a little more effort out there I think. There have been times when he really doesn't seem to give effort lately.

LRB · 02-08-2003, 03:27 AM

<< But shawn does have to show a little more effort out there I think. There have been times when he really doesn't seem to give effort lately.
>>

True dude Shawn does need to show some more effort as do most of the Mavs if not all. But Shawn may also be confused about what he's supposed to be doing. He was benched when playing great. That can be confusing. But even with his current effort he makes us better, we just need to get back to the effort we were getting earlier this year at least.

MFFL · 02-09-2003, 12:07 AM

<< How about the layups and dunks stats in our Sacramento series last year? Do any of y'all think that would have happened with Bradley playing significant minutes? >>

Yes. Bradley is ineffective against the Kings. This year's line for the two games combined - 36 minutes, 3-11 from the field, 9 points, 6 rebounds, 3 blocks.