Kidd: "I want to play another year."

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Of course it makes sense.

You lost me here.

He's not going to come here to backup Deron. The Mavs are not going to go for him if they sign Deron.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Steve Nash is not coming here to backup Deron Williams. That's ridiculous.

And Nash said he didn't want to be traded for ring chasing. I think he's fine doing it as a free agent. He's been quoted as being open to signing with Miami, and having great respect for them as a team.

It's also fairly ridiculous to think that we'd spend our mini-MLE on a backup PG after signing Deron. Who is going to play SG in that scenario?

No, he had numerous interview, where he said he's not sure he ever wanna go ring chasing. He's too competitive to do that. Yes, he also said he wouldn't rule out Miami, he didn't say he would surely play there though... Nash will be 39 years old, soon after the start of the next season. You make it out like he's 30, or i don't know.

Dirk is his best friend in the whole world. He also said - as i wrote - that coming back to Dallas to play with him, and retire together, would be a nice dream. I don't think it's ridiculous notion that he would play here, if you think about those circumstances. Who would play SG? Roddy, and Azubuike, both on very cheap contracts, i think even West could be retained if we amnesty Haywood, and trade Shawn for cap space, but that's another story.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

He's not going to come here to backup Deron.

Why is everybody so sure about that? He has 2 or 3 seasons left, maximum. No guard will play in this league at the age of 42-43. Is it really that hard to see the appeal for him? Why everybody assume that he wants a last big contract? I listed my reasons, also, he could play around 25 minutes per game, and finish games with Deron. Why wouldn't you make that call, if he's available, even if you got Deron?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Why is everybody so sure about that? He has 2 or 3 seasons left, maximum. No guard will play in this league at the age of 42-43. Is it really that hard to see the appeal for him? Why everybody assume that he wants a last big contract? I listed my reasons, also, he could play around 25 minutes per game, and finish games with Deron. Why wouldn't you make that call, if he's available, even if you got Deron?

The appeal is not the problem. It is a given that he is talented, even at his age. He's playing at a level where he's still going to command good, if not great, money as a free agent. If the Suns, who will have cap space, add pieces and keep him happy, then he'll stay there.

Maybe he doesn't WANT to be a backup point guard.

And the reason I wouldn't make the call, even if the Mavs got Deron, is because blowing most of your financial assets on one position doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, he had numerous interview, where he said he's not sure he ever wanna go ring chasing. He's too competitive to do that. Yes, he also said he wouldn't rule out Miami, he didn't say he would surely play there though... Nash will be 39 years old, soon after the start of the next season. You make it out like he's 30, or i don't know.

Dirk is his best friend in the whole world. He also said - as i wrote - that coming back to Dallas to play with him, and retire together, would be a nice dream.

I'd like to see that quote. I heard Nash on the Dan Patrick show and he seemed somewhat dismissive of the notion of returning to Dallas. He said he and Dirk hung out during the all star break and never talked about it.

Beyond that, you're really weaving all over the road in your argument. First you said that Nash was at 85% of his MVP level, and then you act like he's so old that he'd be crazy to not be a backup somewhere.

And what could possibly be more ring chasing than being a backup somewhere? That would be way, way more ring chasing than starting at PG for Miami.

If we don't sign Deron, I think Nash signing here is very possible.

If Deron does sign here, I'll put Nash's changes of signing here at 1%, and that's probably generous.

[BGMaverick9]

thigy, just curious...

If Williams is off the table:
After waking up in the fetal position and having massive convulsions, would you put more of your efforts into signing Nash or Dragic?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by G-Man

There have been many 3 point specialists who hung aroung at the end of their careers in spite of a lack of defensive skill. Peja for one, Steve Kerr is another and I would argue at this point, Jet is more valuable than either.

Part of what has to happen under the new CBA is salaries must come down. If max guys keep getting 16 to 21 million, the Jets and Kidds of the NBA will simply have to make less. Jet will learn this if he becomes a free agent. Given the smaller offers he is likely to get, I expect him to retire a Mav and give his team a home town discount. The guy bleeds Mavs blue and I want to see his Jersey hanging up there next to Dirk's.

I want jets jersey up there even if he goes and plays for the spurs. He cannot control the cba, nor should he take a significant pay cut to stay a mav.

[Budapest Maverick]

I tried to find that interview, so far, nothing. I remember it was a video interview, where he said, he's not sure he ever gonna go "ring chasing", and when the riporter asked, that going back to Dallas, would be different, Nash clearly said, yes, and he said Dirk is the best friend of his, and it would be a special thing, and he clearly implied that he wouldn't consider this scenario as "ringchasing". The other point, he's that great player, but he will be 39, shortly after the start of next season, and surely doesn't plan to play another 4-5 years. So i don't necessarily see what i wrote as a contradiction.

Anyway, with that said, i guess i'm convinced, i'm raising the white flag, lol. Realistically, thinking through the whole thing, you guys are right. It would only make sense for Nash on an emotional level, playing with Dirk, trying to win it together (again). Otherwise, doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him if we get Deron, and it probably doesn't make much more sense to the Mavs, especially if Kidd is willing to sign for the vet min. (which we all hope). While i don't rule out Nash signing a cheap contract, veteran minimum is probably out of the question. Oh well, it was a good dream for an hour.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

It's going to be interesting, you may or may not be right. All it takes is one team to overpay him or simply pay him more than us and there's a good chance he's gone. We cannot assume he is going to give a hometown discount even though it's not impossible. I think he has a chance to command the full MLE but it would probably be with a non-contender. But if he can get 5mil with them instead of say 2 with us he may think "well I got my championship already" and take the extra 3 million. The way he has spoken out against the MBT this season points to him not doing them any huge favors just to fit in Deron or someone else.

If Caron can get 8 mil a season coming off major knee surgery and in his 30s, I see no reason to think Jet can't get at least 5mil a season, possibly a little more.

You talk about tough decisions this summer, whoa is the MBT.

If you are talking about 3 years...that would be almost 10million bucks he would be giving up. He would be nuts to do that.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Word.

I mean, we love Kidd, but if we get Deron, still the first thing you do is to call Steve, and ask him if he would be willing to play with his buddy, Dirk, probably as a backup, and possibly some crunch time minutes with Deron on the floor. Heck, if we don't get Deron, you still call him. He's 80-85% of the player he was during his MVP years..

I'm not so sure. I think jkiddo would be a better backup to deron than steve would be. Maintly their body types and styles would probably be the same. Steve is more of a jitterbug to me. Seems like a pretty different type of point.

Jkiddo will be cheaper than steve also I expect.

[Budapest Maverick]

He'll definitely be cheaper, yeah. About the backup thing, Nash is clearly the superior player at this point, so logically, he would be a better backup as well imo. Probably moot point though.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

thigy, just curious...

If Williams is off the table:
After waking up in the fetal position and having massive convulsions, would you put more of your efforts into signing Nash or Dragic?

Nash, I think. Mainly because I think Dragic is going to command a 4 year deal and a healthy salary. He's a nice player, but he's not someone that's a difference maker after Dirk is gone, unless you have another franchise player lined up. I'd rather pay Nash for 2 years and reset the roster, trying to find the next franchise player at that point.

The huge caveat to all that reasoning is that Nash is, in my opinion, one of the very worst defensive players in the NBA, and I'm just not sure how you make up for that unless you have an elite defender in the paint.

So I say Nash, but I'm not entirely sure how it would work.

[cowboyuptx]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

I'm with you on Jet, but there's no way I take Marion/Kidd over Deron Williams. I mean you're basically saying keep the same team next year as this year, obviously the current team is probably not winning a championship unless Dirk goes off in the playoffs again.

No... That's not really what I said....

I did mention that we would need to sign a couple of really good players, but players that would not command superstar money, to go along with Dirk, Kidd, Marion, and the rest of our players still under contract...

My point is, losing Kidd and Marion, while just gaining Williams, does not make this team better... Lose Marion, and you've just lost your best defender, possibly the reigning Defensive Player of the Year... Lose Kidd, and you've just lost the Mavs' most versatile defender, and even at 39, still a better defender than Williams... Williams plays almost 10 more minutes per game than Kidd, yet Kidd (8th in NBA steals pg) averages more than half (0.6) a steal more per game than Williams (45th in NBA steals pg)...

Williams also leads the league in Turnovers per Game... Meanwhile, Kidd isn't even in the top 100 in terms of most Turnovers per Game, nor in Turnovers per 48-Minutes... Naturally Kidd also destroys Williams Assist-to-Turnover Ratio...

The more I look at it, the more I think that if the Mavs do sign Williams, then their best lineup would include Kidd at the PG position and Williams at the SG position, then those 2 swap on defense...

Hopefully come June, after the Mavs have shocked the world yet again, you'll see things my way

[cowboyuptx]

To all the people who are thinking they want Deron and Nash as his Backup over Kidd, please read my above post...

Kidd is still a better defender than Deron... And Nash, OMG, Nash is infamous for his matador defense, he's not even remotely close to being the overall defender that Kidd is...

I can't believe how many of you still think that Phoenix Suns style of basketball will win championships... Hello? There's two sides to every court, somebody has to play defense... Remember, it was really defense that won us the title last year...

Kidd > Nash

[Budapest Maverick]

PG defense is very, very overrated, it basically has the least impact on team defense out of any position. No matter who you are, a fast point guard will beat you off the dribble, if he can't do it without help, he'll do it with a screen. The guy with the first move, usually beats the guy who has to react. The main thing is what happens after that, and that's what determines if the team is a bad, average, good, or great defensive team, not your PG.

Now of course, Kidd's high basketball IQ, great, magnetic hands, and ability to defend SG's, and even SF's, makes him a valuable piece, especially in the scheme of team defense, but let's not say he's an irreplaceable defensive player for us, at this point in his career. Also, i don't agree that defense won the title for us last year. It helped, but without Dirk's crunch time offense, we really weren't going anywhere. Our defense wasn't historically good, even with that kick a** lineup, with Kidd-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Tyson, but our offense with that lineup, was actually on an all-time great level.


If i'm not mistaken their offensive rating destroyed anything we've seen in the last 7-8 years, we even said that it would be cool to compare it with all-time great teams', like the 80's Celtics, or the Bulls, early 2000's Lakers, etc. Imo, our offense was better, than our defense, in the last year's playoffs. Remember those possessions, how many wide open 3's we missed in some games. We had quality looks on almost every single possession. Now look at our offense now. It's pathetic. Nash lead 7 of the best offensive teams of all-time. They never had a defensive anchor center.

That was all they missed. The most impactful defensive position. Give him a Tyson during his runs, surefire championship team. Heck, give him a Gortat, they still might win. That, and the Suns' pitiful owner was his burden, why he never won. At this point, he's a much better player than Kidd, and we would battling OKC and the Spurs for the nr1. spot, if he's our starting PG this year.

[oilfieldtrash]

Sorry I just can't forget what an awful defender Nash is. We've seen what it takes to win a ring. Fancy no looks, behind the back passes, and matador D ain't it.

[jthig32]

The hyperbole around Nash is getting out of control. I'm concerned about how the team would work with his defense, but good grief. He's a fantastic offensive player and trying to argue that Kidd is still a superior player to him due to defense is doomed.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by cowboyuptx

No... That's not really what I said....

I did mention that we would need to sign a couple of really good players, but players that would not command superstar money, to go along with Dirk, Kidd, Marion, and the rest of our players still under contract...

My point is, losing Kidd and Marion, while just gaining Williams, does not make this team better... Lose Marion, and you've just lost your best defender, possibly the reigning Defensive Player of the Year... Lose Kidd, and you've just lost the Mavs' most versatile defender, and even at 39, still a better defender than Williams... Williams plays almost 10 more minutes per game than Kidd, yet Kidd (8th in NBA steals pg) averages more than half (0.6) a steal more per game than Williams (45th in NBA steals pg)...

Williams also leads the league in Turnovers per Game... Meanwhile, Kidd isn't even in the top 100 in terms of most Turnovers per Game, nor in Turnovers per 48-Minutes... Naturally Kidd also destroys Williams Assist-to-Turnover Ratio...

The more I look at it, the more I think that if the Mavs do sign Williams, then their best lineup would include Kidd at the PG position and Williams at the SG position, then those 2 swap on defense...

Hopefully come June, after the Mavs have shocked the world yet again, you'll see things my way

Williams' turnovers is a product of the trash in NJ, that is a bad team, Lopez bieng out for the majority of the year, contributes to that, rookies, guys on 10 day contracts, not knowing teammates all contributors to that. Williams will essentially replace Jet's production and a little bit more.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

PG defense is very, very overrated, it basically has the least impact on team defense out of any position. No matter who you are, a fast point guard will beat you off the dribble, if he can't do it without help, he'll do it with a screen. The guy with the first move, usually beats the guy who has to react. The main thing is what happens after that, and that's what determines if the team is a bad, average, good, or great defensive team, not your PG.

Now of course, Kidd's high basketball IQ, great, magnetic hands, and ability to defend SG's, and even SF's, makes him a valuable piece, especially in the scheme of team defense, but let's not say he's an irreplaceable defensive player for us, at this point in his career. Also, i don't agree that defense won the title for us last year. It helped, but without Dirk's crunch time offense, we really weren't going anywhere. Our defense wasn't historically good, even with that kick a** lineup, with Kidd-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Tyson, but our offense with that lineup, was actually on an all-time great level.


If i'm not mistaken their offensive rating destroyed anything we've seen in the last 7-8 years, we even said that it would be cool to compare it with all-time great teams', like the 80's Celtics, or the Bulls, early 2000's Lakers, etc. Imo, our offense was better, than our defense, in the last year's playoffs. Remember those possessions, how many wide open 3's we missed in some games. We had quality looks on almost every single possession. Now look at our offense now. It's pathetic. Nash lead 7 of the best offensive teams of all-time. They never had a defensive anchor center.

That was all they missed. The most impactful defensive position. Give him a Tyson during his runs, surefire championship team. Heck, give him a Gortat, they still might win. That, and the Suns' pitiful owner was his burden, why he never won. At this point, he's a much better player than Kidd, and we would battling OKC and the Spurs for the nr1. spot, if he's our starting PG this year.

Who do you bring in to replace Kidd's defense? I don't think it's that easy. You limit his minutes to under 20 a night along side DWill or even in the 2nd unit, he will dissect sets before the other team even runs the set. He's at his best off the ball, playing the passing lanes, reaching in when beat, doubling the post.

[no barea no championship]

This is awesome. Kidd playing another year means another year of mediocrity for the team.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by no barea no championship

This is awesome. Kidd playing another year means another year of mediocrity for the team.

We definitely know who you want or wanted in his place...

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Who do you bring in to replace Kidd's defense? I don't think it's that easy. You limit his minutes to under 20 a night along side DWill or even in the 2nd unit, he will dissect sets before the other team even runs the set. He's at his best off the ball, playing the passing lanes, reaching in when beat, doubling the post.

I don't think i said i don't appreciate Kidd's defense. My point was, if Nash would have come here, worrying because of his defense, would have been kinda stupid, as PG defense is generally the less impactful. But i 100% comprehend Kidd as a defender. Kidd is obviously the exception to the PG defense rule, because of his versatility, but when he does a good job on a SG, or a SF, that's not something Marion, or say, West can't do, at least at this point, and time. That's what i meant.

Also, let me clear this, i'd be ecstatic to have Kidd as a backup PG. I think he would be one of the, if not the best backup PG next year, playing around 18-20 minutes. I just initially thought, Nash would be even better, but after those post exchanges, i see now that it's kinda unrealistic, despite the emotional appeal.

No question, Kidd would be awesome, and yeah, i think he would be a good fit on both ends of the floor for a good 5-8 minutes with Deron, in every game, as he could guarding SG's on defense, and Deron is a very good penetrating PG, up there with anybody not named Rose and Westbrook, so Kidd could be spacing the floor in those 5-8 minutes. Would love to have him back in that role.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

We definitely know who you want or wanted in his place...

Ricky Rubio?

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I don't think i said i don't appreciate Kidd's defense. My point was, if Nash would have come here, worrying because of his defense, would have been kinda stupid, as PG defense is generally the less impactful. But i 100% comprehend Kidd as a defender. Kidd is obviously the exception to the PG defense rule, because of his versatility, but when he does a good job on a SG, or a SF, that's not something Marion, or say, West can't do, at least at this point, and time. That's what i meant.

Also, let me clear this, i'd be ecstatic to have Kidd as a backup PG. I think he would be one of the, if not the best backup PG next year, playing around 18-20 minutes. I just initially thought, Nash would be even better, but after those post exchanges, i see now that it's kinda unrealistic, despite the emotional appeal.

No question, Kidd would be awesome, and yeah, i think he would be a good fit on both ends of the floor for a good 5-8 minutes with Deron, in every game, as he could guarding SG's on defense, and Deron is a very good penetrating PG, up there with anybody not named Rose and Westbrook, so Kidd could be spacing the floor in those 5-8 minutes. Would love to have him back in that role.

I can see him even taking on Deshawn's role from last year, start the game and if needed in crunch time.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by cowboyuptx

To all the people who are thinking they want Deron and Nash as his Backup over Kidd, please read my above post...

Kidd is still a better defender than Deron... And Nash, OMG, Nash is infamous for his matador defense, he's not even remotely close to being the overall defender that Kidd is...

I can't believe how many of you still think that Phoenix Suns style of basketball will win championships... Hello? There's two sides to every court, somebody has to play defense... Remember, it was really defense that won us the title last year...

Kidd > Nash

Completely disregarding the fact that Nash is possibly the greatest pure shooter in basketball history is ridiculous. Yes, Kidd is a better defender, but he is as far behind Nash offensively as Nash is behind him defensively. And to me, this team needs a lights-out perimeter shooter in the worst way.

Nash, right now, is 10x the player Kidd is. And I love Jason Kidd.

[Underdog]

Steve Nash isn't going to be anyone's backup next season - he's an All-Star this year... So obviously Kidd would be a better backup to Deron Williams for the simple reason that he'll play for a much cheaper/shorter contract.

[spreedom]

Anyone who says Kidd doesn't have it anymore just needs to watch the first quarter of tonight's game to understand how wrong they are.