12-07-2012, 12:57 PM
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#81
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,511
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Yeah Wright really killed it in the fourth, also decent defensive. Before that, not so much.
Also thought Collison looked a lot better tonight.
Last edited by j0Shi; 12-07-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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12-07-2012, 01:20 PM
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#82
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Inactive.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 42,966
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Pretty decent game. A few thoughts
1) We had one of our best 3rd quarters of this season, which was a nice surprise.
2) Our big run began with some defense. As soon as we got two straight stops, we began to rebound and destroy the Phoenix defense. Admittedly Phoenix is only middle of the pack in rebounding and one of the league's worst defenses, but it was pretty amazing to see how the Mavs could suddenly secure every board and score every possession for a period of a few minutes.
3) Wright was huge for us in the fourth. 8pts (4-5 shooting), 4reb, 1stl, 1blk and a lot of deflections at very important times. 10 of the first 11 points in the fourth were either Wright or Mayo and Wright kept us in the game even as Carter and Collison missed shots and turned it over.
4) After wright kept us treading water, we had some big FT performances by Carter and Collison (6-6 Collison, 4-4 Carter) to seal the deal.
5) Injuries-- Marion has another strained muscle and Kaman has a sprained ankle. Not a good time to be thin on guys, but neither injury seemed too serious.
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12-07-2012, 02:37 PM
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#83
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Is it possible that carlisles great coaching the last couple of years was really Jason Kidd being a coach on the floor? Or at least part of it? Because if you watch this team they look poorly coached and if you watch the Knicks, they look a lot like the old mavs.
I'm not saying that's the case, I don't even think it is. I think Carlisle has been bad this year but it doesn't take away what he's done in the past or what he could do in the future but it is an interesting thought.
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Nope.. Just the difference between mediocre players who don't know what they are doing and better players who do.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-07-2012, 02:40 PM
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#84
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus1234
Collisnon "improves" vs bad teams and "regresses" vs. good teams.
...do not hold your breath.
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Probably way more truth to this than we want it to be.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-07-2012, 02:55 PM
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#85
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Four of those free throws were intentional fouls at the end, and two were on a clear path path foul created by a Wright steal, but I did think DC looked as good as I've seen him look in a while in the second half. His half-court aggression and energy were much improved from the clumsy and passive play that's unfortunately become the norm for him. Not sure any of it really shows up on the box-score, but it did catch my eye.
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Thanks for the recap!
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12-07-2012, 10:12 PM
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#86
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSMF
Oh snap, I was starting to forget about you.
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You really don't see how asinine your post was?
Even if I ignore how some (probably) teenage fan not taking an NBA coach "seriously" is such a ridiculous idea, people said the same shit two months before the Mavs won the championship. RC is pretty much the reason Larry Bird won CoY. RC took 3 different teams to the conference finals, won a championship, and is regarded around the league as one of the greatest Xs and Os guys ever.
Also, please stop capitalizing random words like Championship and Two. I'm not trying to be a nazi but it makes posts hard on the eyes.
In regards to everyone else, is everyone forgetting that Dirk is out? If you want to give Rick's credit to Kidd, why did we go 2-7 without Dirk with Kidd AND Chandler, but this season we're almost .500 without Dirk?
Last edited by fluid.forty.one; 12-07-2012 at 10:20 PM.
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12-07-2012, 10:12 PM
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#87
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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double post
Last edited by fluid.forty.one; 12-07-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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12-08-2012, 12:27 AM
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#88
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one
You really don't see how asinine your post was?
Even if I ignore how some (probably) teenage fan not taking an NBA coach "seriously" is such a ridiculous idea, people said the same shit two months before the Mavs won the championship. RC is pretty much the reason Larry Bird won CoY. RC took 3 different teams to the conference finals, won a championship, and is regarded around the league as one of the greatest Xs and Os guys ever.
Also, please stop capitalizing random words like Championship and Two. I'm not trying to be a nazi but it makes posts hard on the eyes.
In regards to everyone else, is everyone forgetting that Dirk is out? If you want to give Rick's credit to Kidd, why did we go 2-7 without Dirk with Kidd AND Chandler, but this season we're almost .500 without Dirk?
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lol
__________________
Monta Ellis is an All-Star.
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12-08-2012, 01:41 AM
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#89
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Fluid you bring up a valid point about dirk and honestly we have a better record then I thought we would without him. My point about carlisles coaching was entirely eye test which I realize is dangerous.
My problems with Carlisle are 1. Not playing wright 2. Being inconsistent in his message 3. Repeatedly running an iso for Vince when we need a big bucket late
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12-08-2012, 03:46 AM
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#90
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Fluid you bring up a valid point about dirk and honestly we have a better record then I thought we would without him. My point about carlisles coaching was entirely eye test which I realize is dangerous.
My problems with Carlisle are 1. Not playing wright 2. Being inconsistent in his message 3. Repeatedly running an iso for Vince when we need a big bucket late
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1. Another thing to keep in mind about Wright is that his success could be precisely because of the limited amount of time he has seen on the floor. It's easy for fans to say "omg that guy should be playing more" and blame the coach, but I'm gonna assume he knows more than I do about the ability and fit of the personnel. Case in point, he was right about Roddy while all of us were freaking out about it.
On a more specific point about Wright.. I know the teams rebounding suffers a lot when he's playing lots of minutes.
2. Agree on this one
3. Speaking of Kidd, here is where we miss him the most. Without Dirk and without Kidd's play making and levelheadedness, we don't have a lot of options down the stretch when the defense tightens up. We all know that he doesn't trust Collison in those situations (yet). Mayo might have been a better option (and Kaman was out), but we all know that Rick loves his vets and Carter has shown that he still has the ability to score.
Last edited by fluid.forty.one; 12-08-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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12-08-2012, 09:24 AM
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#91
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Guru
Join Date: May 2001
Location: sport
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The team could easily be 4-5 games under .500 right now without Dirk.. Props to Carlisle.
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12-08-2012, 10:01 AM
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#92
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 16,054
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The could also be 11-8 right now too....
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12-08-2012, 12:33 PM
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#93
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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I guess they could be 19-0.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-08-2012, 01:05 PM
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#94
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
I guess they could be 19-0.
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Sure, they could have been. But they threw away like 3-5 games i think.
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12-08-2012, 01:10 PM
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#95
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 16,054
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Well..... yhey should have won charlotte and gs game. Hence 11-8.
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12-08-2012, 01:33 PM
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#96
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayliss
Well..... yhey should have won charlotte and gs game. Hence 11-8.
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I remember also the Philly (6 TO's in a row) game...
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12-08-2012, 01:41 PM
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#97
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Guru
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Brasil
Posts: 15,401
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After 19 games we are better than the Lakers. Is here anyone that would have complained about this at the beginning of the season?
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12-08-2012, 02:23 PM
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#98
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayliss
Well..... yhey should have won charlotte and gs game. Hence 11-8.
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And Pop should have won the T-mac 13 points in 33 seconds game. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Shit happens and we're almost .500 without Dirk, better than our record with Kidd and Chandler during the championship season.
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12-08-2012, 02:55 PM
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#99
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 16,054
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Quote:
And Pop should have won the T-mac 13 points in 33 seconds game. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Shit happens and we're almost .500 without Dirk, better than our record with Kidd and Chandler during the championship season.
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Did Pop bench the Spur who had the highest PER on that team for a month after that T-Mac game?
Last edited by Bayliss; 12-08-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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12-08-2012, 03:15 PM
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#100
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Is there anyone here who legitametly believe that Brandon wright isn't outer best pf?(discounting Marion since he's better at sf)
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12-08-2012, 03:37 PM
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#101
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one
And Pop should have won the T-mac 13 points in 33 seconds game. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Shit happens and we're almost .500 without Dirk, better than our record with Kidd and Chandler during the championship season.
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IMO this widely repeated stat is pretty ridiculous. We've played one of if not the easiest schedule in the league. The previous games without the dirkster not so much.
Apples and oranges. But a nice job by the boys.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-08-2012, 03:38 PM
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#102
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayliss
Did Pop bench the Spur who had the highest PER on that team for a month after that T-Mac game?
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Maybe, who was it?
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-08-2012, 03:49 PM
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#103
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Is there anyone here who legitametly believe that Brandon wright isn't outer best pf?(discounting Marion since he's better at sf)
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Marion may be better at SF, and he may not be able to play PF as well as he could when he was in his athletic prime, but he's still capable when he's healthy, and Dallas has enough usable depth at SF that they can afford to play him at the 4, so I see no reason to exclude him from the discussion. Taking that into account, where does Brandan rank? Well, he probably shouldn't be ranked higher than EB, but in light of Elton's offensive struggles this year, I agree that it's not a stretch to say that Brandan is, in fact, no worse than the Mavs' 3rd best PF right now.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-08-2012, 03:53 PM
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#104
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Inactive.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 42,966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Marion may be better at SF, and he may not be able to play PF as well as he could when he was in his athletic prime, but he's still capable when he's healthy, and Dallas has enough usable depth at SF that they can afford to play him at the 4, so I see no reason to exclude him from the discussion. Taking that into account, where does Brandan rank? Well, he probably shouldn't be ranked higher than EB, but in light of Elton's offensive struggles this year, I agree that it's not a stretch to say that Brandan is, in fact, no worse than the Mavs' 3rd best PF right now.
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So only one guy ahead of Wright with injuries. Two when Dirk gets back.
And until Marion's crotch feels better, that is ZERO.
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12-08-2012, 03:57 PM
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#105
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Marion may be better at SF, and he may not be able to play PF as well as he could when he was in his athletic prime, but he's still capable when he's healthy, and Dallas has enough usable depth at SF that they can afford to play him at the 4, so I see no reason to exclude him from the discussion. Taking that into account, where does Brandan rank? Well, he probably shouldn't be ranked higher than EB, but in light of Elton's offensive struggles this year, I agree that it's not a stretch to say that Brandan is, in fact, no worse than the Mavs' 3rd best PF right now.
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Our useful depth at sf is Vince carter.... That's it. Wrights a better pf than any other sf option we have. And he's been much better than brand this year.
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12-08-2012, 04:06 PM
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#106
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 17,873
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What, exactly, does it mean to not take Rick Carlisle "seriously"? Like, Rick's got jokes?
Or maybe one day he's going to point at the camera and be all like, "Just kidding fans, I'm not really a coach! Ha! Ha ha! You got burned!" Then maybe he'll throw a potato at somebody's head, drop the mic, and disappear through a smoke-bomb trap-door, leaving only his clownshoes behind.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
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12-08-2012, 04:12 PM
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#107
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky
So only one guy ahead of Wright with injuries. Two when Dirk gets back.
And until Marion's crotch feels better, that is ZERO.
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And outside of Elton the only other options are a rookie who's been struggling a bit of late, and a couple guys who are clearly better suited either for C or SF. So, congratulations to Brandan for ascending to this lofty perch, I guess.
More seriously, it'll be interesting to see how tonight goes. Asik will easily be the most physical presence on the floor for either team. Under normal circumstances I'd expect his presence to mean fewer minutes for Brandan, with better rebounders getting the call at center, and guys with more range (+ Elton) getting the minutes at PF. With Marion out and Kaman probably < 100%, though, that probably creates an opening for Brandan to show what he can do in minutes he wouldn't normally get. I sincerely hope he makes the most of it.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-08-2012, 04:25 PM
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#108
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Our useful depth at sf is Vince carter.... That's it. Wrights a better pf than any other sf option we have. And he's been much better than brand this year.
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Dahntay and Jae are both usable at SF as well, even if Dahntay's usefulness is a bit matchup-dependent and Jae's still a bit of a wild-card. I see no reason that the Mavs can't look for 30+ mpg out of the trio of those two and Vince at SF if they need it, which puts Marion in a position to play 12-20 minutes at PF. At any rate, my only point is that he should be accounted for when assessing the Mavs' PF depth.
And in case it wasn't clear from my previous post, I don't disagree that he's been better than Brand. Still holding out hope that Elton can start to find a groove when Dirk makes it back, though.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-08-2012, 04:42 PM
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#109
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Platinum Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,675
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They are all usable, but not against elite teams. And i fear there are at least 8 of them in the western conf.
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12-08-2012, 04:54 PM
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#110
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Dahntay and Jae are both usable at SF as well, even if Dahntay's usefulness is a bit matchup-dependent and Jae's still a bit of a wild-card. I see no reason that the Mavs can't look for 30+ mpg out of the trio of those two and Vince at SF if they need it, which puts Marion in a position to play 12-20 minutes at PF. At any rate, my only point is that he should be accounted for when assessing the Mavs' PF depth.
And in case it wasn't clear from my previous post, I don't disagree that he's been better than Brand. Still holding out hope that Elton can start to find a groove when Dirk makes it back, though.
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Jae and dahntay have both been absolutely terrible. I realize it's a small sample but so far everyone has a small sample. At this point the optimal minutes for the front court probably looks like this
C-kaman 26, brand 12, sarge 10
Pf-wright 28, Marion 12, brand 8
Sf-Marion 18, Vince 24, jae 6
Obviously you aren't going to be able to play it out perfectly like that but that's what I think we should be shooting for. I think dahntay will have a place once dirk is back but until then I think hes better off on the bench.
Edit-I'm not asking for wright to get 35 minutes a game and honestly when dirk comes back I don't expect him to get 20 mins a game. But until that time, every game he doesn't get 24 minutes barring foul trouble is a mistake by carlisle
Last edited by Five-ofan; 12-08-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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12-08-2012, 05:20 PM
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#111
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Jae and dahntay have both been absolutely terrible.
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For the season as a whole I just strongly disagree with that assessment.
Quote:
At this point the optimal minutes for the front court probably looks like this
C-kaman 26, brand 12, sarge 10
Pf-wright 28, Marion 12, brand 8
Sf-Marion 18, Vince 24, jae 6
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Obviously, I think you find a few more minutes for Jae/Dahntay at SF. I also think the Mavs are better off, particularly until Dirk gets back, with Kaman getting more like 30 if he can handle it. They need his scoring. And there are going to be at least a couple nights where matchups favor Sarge for more minutes, and hopefully a few where Elton finds a rhythm on offense, with Brandan's minutes taking a hit in either case. After all that, I'd say something in the range of 18-24 minutes for Brandan most nights (with a full crew minus Dirk) seems pretty reasonable.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-08-2012, 05:36 PM
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#112
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
For the season as a whole I just strongly disagree with that assessment.
Obviously, I think you find a few more minutes for Jae/Dahntay at SF. I also think the Mavs are better off, particularly until Dirk gets back, with Kaman getting more like 30 if he can handle it. They need his scoring. And there are going to be at least a couple nights where matchups favor Sarge for more minutes, and hopefully a few where Elton finds a rhythm on offense, with Brandan's minutes taking a hit in either case. After all that, I'd say something in the range of 18-24 minutes for Brandan most nights (with a full crew minus Dirk) seems pretty reasonable.
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For the season as a whole jae is avg 6 points 2.6 rebs and 1.2 assists on 39% shooting, 30pct 3pt shooting and 53% ft shooting in 20 mins a game. Dahntay has avged 2.7 points on 29%!!!!! Shooting, 23% 3pt shooting and 85% ft shooting in 11 mins a game
So between them in 30 mins a game they are avg 8.8 pts, 3.8 rbs, 2as and a turnover on 35% shooting, 27% 3pt shooting. Yes jae had a few moments early but on the season as a whole that is stunningly terrible.
Edit, jaes per is 10, jones' is 6.5. I'm a little surprised to see you defend them over wright given how much you usually use numbers gmc.
Last edited by Five-ofan; 12-08-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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12-08-2012, 05:56 PM
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#113
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
For the season as a whole jae is avg 6 points 2.6 rebs and 1.2 assists on 39% shooting, 30pct 3pt shooting and 53% ft shooting in 20 mins a game. Dahntay has avged 2.7 points on 29%!!!!! Shooting, 23% 3pt shooting and 85% ft shooting in 11 mins a game
So between them in 30 mins a game they are avg 8.8 pts, 3.8 rbs, 2as and a turnover on 35% shooting, 27% 3pt shooting. Yes jae had a few moments early but on the season as a whole that is stunningly terrible.
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With Dahntay you find him minutes because of the kind of defense he plays. Not a lot, but some, again depending on the matchup.
As for Jae, I'm well aware that his shot's in the $#!tter lately. My point is that if you take account of more than the last couple weeks, he's made positive contributions that to my mind merit further rotation minutes, conditional on how he's looking in practice and whether that's translating to production in his first shift of the night.
Edit to add: I'm not defending them over Wright, especially since I'm allowing for more minutes for him (with Dirk out) than the two of them combined would feasibly get. I'm simply advocating finding them some minutes at positions and in situations where they have and can contribute.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
Last edited by grndmstr_c; 12-08-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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12-08-2012, 06:21 PM
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#114
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Guru
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
With Dahntay you find him minutes because of the kind of defense he plays. Not a lot, but some, again depending on the matchup.
As for Jae, I'm well aware that his shot's in the $#!tter lately. My point is that if you take account of more than the last couple weeks, he's made positive contributions that to my mind merit further rotation minutes, conditional on how he's looking in practice and whether that's translating to production in his first shift of the night.
Edit to add: I'm not defending them over Wright, especially since I'm allowing for more minutes for him (with Dirk out) than the two of them combined would feasibly get. I'm simply advocating finding them some minutes at positions and in situations where they have and can contribute.
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Fair enough. But my point has been how stupid it was of Carlisle to go ten games where he essentially didn't play wright. That deserves criticism and there continue to be people who seem to argue that it doesn't.
Also I completely understand that there will never and should never be a set amount of minutes that is unchangeable. Those minutes were meant to be an avg of what they would get.
As for jones I agree about the d but I think he will be much more useful once dirk is back
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12-08-2012, 06:39 PM
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#115
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan
Fair enough. But my point has been how stupid it was of Carlisle to go ten games where he essentially didn't play wright. That deserves criticism and there continue to be people who seem to argue that it doesn't.
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It's certainly fair game for debate, but I'm one of those who thought it was a defensible strategy when Murphy was on the roster - for a wide range of reasons that go well beyond what Murphy himself provided on the court, which was undoubtedly less efficient than what Brandan himself would have provided in those minutes.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-08-2012, 08:57 PM
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#116
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
What, exactly, does it mean to not take Rick Carlisle "seriously"? Like, Rick's got jokes?
Or maybe one day he's going to point at the camera and be all like, "Just kidding fans, I'm not really a coach! Ha! Ha ha! You got burned!" Then maybe he'll throw a potato at somebody's head, drop the mic, and disappear through a smoke-bomb trap-door, leaving only his clownshoes behind.
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So much of this.
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12-08-2012, 09:52 PM
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#117
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Cowboys Country
Posts: 23,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
What, exactly, does it mean to not take Rick Carlisle "seriously"? Like, Rick's got jokes?
Or maybe one day he's going to point at the camera and be all like, "Just kidding fans, I'm not really a coach! Ha! Ha ha! You got burned!" Then maybe he'll throw a potato at somebody's head, drop the mic, and disappear through a smoke-bomb trap-door, leaving only his clownshoes behind.
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Funny visual.
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