Official: Rondo to Dallas!!

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by MFFL

I didn't think Howard would either...

Howard didn't take less money to go to Houston (in fact, I believe he took slightly more, although I can't recall whether the Mavs offered him a true max or not). And at the time he chose, the Mavs' cupboard was pretty bare other than Dirk. That's not the case anymore.

The Mavs have Rondo's bird rights. They can offer him more money (and more years) than any other team. Completely different situation than with Dwight.

[sefant77]

Howard just took a few 100k below his max i think.

Rockets have no cap space, they would pretty much need do dump Brewerm, Papa, Jones etc. Morey had his chance to get Rondo (the 2015 pelicans pick), looks like he didnt want. He wont go after him in FA and dumping half of the roster for this...

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Howard didn't take less money to go to Houston

The Mavs have Rondo's bird rights. They can offer him more money (and more years) than any other team. Completely different situation than with Dwight.

The Lakers had Howard's bird rights. Just like us with Rondo.

Howard left a year of guaranteed money in LA

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by MFFL

The Lakers had Howard's bird rights. Just like us with Rondo.

Howard left a year of guaranteed money in LA

Dwight's year in LA was pretty much a train wreck from the beginning. Still only a month into Rondo's tenure, but I don't see the two situations as being all that comparable. Dwight bizarre pre-free agency saga and eventual free agent decision were the exception, and very far from the rule.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Dwight's year in LA was pretty much a train wreck from the beginning. Still only a month into Rondo's tenure, but I don't see the two situations as being all that comparable. Dwight bizarre pre-free agency saga and eventual free agent decision were the exception, and very far from the rule.

Agreed. Howard never wanted to be 2nd fiddle to Kobe. Rondo doesn't have to be the man. He just finds the open man.

Very different situations.

[MFFL]

All I'm saying is that don't count your chickens before their hatched. We have an advantage in resigning rondo but it's not a given

[EricaLubarsky]

I wonder if Kobe's Rotator cuff will allow him to shake Rondo's hand without re-tearing

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by MFFL

The Lakers had Howard's bird rights. Just like us with Rondo.

Howard left a year of guaranteed money in LA

Ok, I missed that you were talking about the Lakers. That's an even worse comparison than the one I thought you were making. The Lakers had a terrible year, had the wrong coach for Dwight's skills, and put him in exactly the kind of spotlight (and with the kind of teammate in Kobe) that he wants nothing to do with.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Ok, I missed that you were talking about the Lakers. That's an even worse comparison than the one I thought you were making. The Lakers had a terrible year, had the wrong coach for Dwight's skills, and put him in exactly the kind of spotlight (and with the kind of teammate in Kobe) that he wants nothing to do with.

I don't at all understand why so many people disliked the D'Antoni fit (Gasol notwithstanding, but there's no reason they couldn't have sold high on him before his injury). I thought the traditional run-and-gun style should have been right up Dwight's alley. Had Nash been healthy (or, in place of that, had Kobe been willing to play any semblance of team ball outside of his vanity triple-double performances) the Lakers could have and should have pick-and-rolled the league to death with Dwight. But alas, he is pretty stubbornly insistent on posting up even though he doesn't finish very well around the rim.

I do agree as a whole that the Dwight and Rondo scenarios don't really compare. With Rondo, the Mavs are simply much better than they were without him, especially defensively, and there really aren't a lot of clear suitors for him that can offer both a max contract and a chance to compete for a championship. Dwight's (correct) decision to leave LA is something of an anomaly in my opinion.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I don't at all understand why so many people disliked the D'Antoni fit (Gasol notwithstanding, but there's no reason they couldn't have sold high on him before his injury). I thought the traditional run-and-gun style should have been right up Dwight's alley. Had Nash been healthy (or, in place of that, had Kobe been willing to play any semblance of team ball outside of his vanity triple-double performances) the Lakers could have and should have pick-and-rolled the league to death with Dwight. But alas, he is pretty stubbornly insistent on posting up even though he doesn't finish very well around the rim.

Two things. First, I think the real lack of fit was with regard to D'Antoni's defensive philosophy. Dwight is a good enough offensive player, but his real strength has always been defense. He's a complete game changer clogging the lane, and he quite rightfully won three straight DPOYs. But if you give him a coach who, frankly, doesn't care much at all about defense, you're turning Dwight from a dominant overall player into just a good offensive center.

Second, on the offensive side, while I think you're definitely right that Dwight can "run and gun" a bit, asking a guy of his frame to do that for an entire game is a bit much. There's a reason D'Antoni's Suns went with Amare (and even Diaw for a season) at center. It's pretty hard for a full-fledged five to keep up with the "seven seconds or less" philosophy for 35+ minutes a game.

[Bryan_Wilson]

IIRC dirk had just had the only "significant" injury of his career the year prior and many on the national media scale said he was done as a star. I think for Howard it came down to Harden plus parsons and hakeem was there apart of the pitch. I believe he and parsons became fast and near immediate friends on top of that. In the preseason game this year there was that video of dwight bear hugging parsons as soon as he saw him. So for dwight it was young talents like harden and parsons with young assets like tjones and motiejunas for further improvement and hakeem vs a Dirk that was old and a "?" as to what he had left and a promise to add something the following year when space opened up. I don't think rondo and howard situations are anything close to similar at all.

[EricaLubarsky]

Tim Cato had this gem. Don't know if it's been posted.

Rondo w/out headband: 11 points, 9 assists, 6 rebounds, 38% shooting

Rondo w/ headband: 21 points, 7 assists, 8 rebounds, 59% shooting

[hayth.james.g]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that unless Rondo has just an ungodly playoff run (which I am all for), there aren't going to be alot of teams willing to even come close to a max contract. It's not even a sure bet that we are willing to go the 5/125 that our Bird rights allow us to do. Right now there is a wealth of talent at the PG position in the NBA. It makes the most sense for us to offer him whatever it takes to keep him just in that we have no other way to acquire a PG with his talent any other way. We are going to be pushed to the cap as is just retaining T. Chandler and M. Ellis (albeit bird and early bird rights we do have on those two respectively).

I'm not saying we shouldn't or won't retain Rondo with a max offer. I am a strong believer in his game come playoff time. I just think that all of the contract resigning talk is entirely too premature to be anything more than far reaching speculation at this point.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

FreshJive, your initial assessment of the incident ends up sounding quite reasonable compared to some of the total clowns on DB.com:

http://t.co/CzIGh0GZZg

(Note that there is literally a guy who says he thinks Rondo will be traded before the deadline. Remind me never to go to DB. Ever.)

I apologize for anyone who visited that place on my account.

[dude1394]

Db.com is different, it is quite enjoyable with an active ignore button. The traffic there is about 10x here which makes it interesting. Sometimes in a trainwreck kinda way.

[iggymcfly]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I do agree as a whole that the Dwight and Rondo scenarios don't really compare. With Rondo, the Mavs are simply much better than they were without him, especially defensively, and there really aren't a lot of clear suitors for him that can offer both a max contract and a chance to compete for a championship. Dwight's (correct) decision to leave LA is something of an anomaly in my opinion.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

Mavericks before trade: 19-8, +7 PD
Mavericks since trade: 11-8, +3 PD

LOLOLOLOL @ "simply much better". Rondo's probably improved the defense of the starting unit a little more than he's hurt the offense, but he hasn't come close to replacing the impact of Brandan Wright off the bench. According to 82games.com, Wright was the best player on our team on a per minute basis, and Greg Smith has been the worst by a mile. That's a pretty difficult minute transfer.

[MavsFTR]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

Mavericks before trade: 19-8, +7 PD
Mavericks since trade: 11-8, +3 PD

LOLOLOLOL @ "simply much better". Rondo's probably improved the defense of the starting unit a little more than he's hurt the offense, but he hasn't come close to replacing the impact of Brandan Wright off the bench. According to 82games.com, Wright was the best player on our team on a per minute basis, and Greg Smith has been the worst by a mile. That's a pretty difficult minute transfer.

I'd be more interested in seeing what we're like once we have a true back up center. I'd wager once we have that, the Rondo trade will look better.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

I'd be more interested in seeing what we're like once we have a true back up center. I'd wager once we have that, the Rondo trade will look better.

Well too bad we gave him up for a known stat padder.

[sefant77]

Just an idiot doesnt see that Rondo isnt the issue here...the issue is Devin and Barea playing like trash and killing our entire bench/2nd unit production.

And yeah Brandan was our great backup center...we would have totally beat the Clippers and grizzlies with him on the roster.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Just an idiot doesnt see that Rondo isnt the issue here...

[mavsfan1000]

Rondo 0-7.

[sefant77]

Mavsfan 0-1000

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

According to 82games.com, Wright was the best player on our team on a per minute basis, and Greg Smith has been the worst by a mile. That's a pretty difficult minute transfer.

Wright was good because we were playing BAD teams. He didn't produce much when we played GOOD teams.

We were losing against the best of the West before the Rondo trade and we still are. Its a work in progress - you can't change the point guard midseason without a LOT of growing pains

[CGM]

Blaming losses on Barea and Harris, who play less than 15 minutes each, when Rondo in 35 minutes does not know what scoring a basket is and when he commits almost as many TOs as assists = 0 - ∞

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Mavsfan 0-1000

How long until you realize Rondo is the problem?

[sefant77]

How long until you realize that Wrights stats were terrible leastern conference inflated and that he wasnt anyway the backup center we need for the WC? Huh?

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by sefant77

How long until you realize that Wrights stats were terrible leastern conference inflated and that he wasnt anyway the backup center we need for the WC? Huh?

We are a better team with Wright than without.

[sefant77]

And Nelson killed our entire defense, so what?

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by sefant77

And Nelson killed our entire defense, so what?

We have more wrong with our defense than just Nelson. But Rondo single handedly disrupted our offense.

[TheDirkKnightRises]

We are having a lot of trouble without Wright and Crowder.

[xtruroyaltyx]

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

Mavericks before trade: 19-8, +7 PD
Mavericks since trade: 11-8, +3 PD

LOLOLOLOL @ "simply much better". Rondo's probably improved the defense of the starting unit a little more than he's hurt the offense, but he hasn't come close to replacing the impact of Brandan Wright off the bench. According to 82games.com, Wright was the best player on our team on a per minute basis, and Greg Smith has been the worst by a mile. That's a pretty difficult minute transfer.

I don't know the stats, but as a rockets fan I was thrilled Brandon weight was gone. Rondo doesn't scare me. Even on his really good days. Wright was a pain off the bench.

[xtruroyaltyx]

Originally Posted by TheDirkKnightRises

We are having a lot of trouble without Wright and Crowder.

Crowder too. Him and weight off the bench worried me. I was actually relieved when those two were moved. Seemed like they always made plays against us.

[xtruroyaltyx]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

We have more wrong with our defense than just Nelson. But Rondo single handedly disrupted our offense.

Nelson actually worried me more than rondo. Bev isn't going to do much offensively so his defense wasn't that big of a deal to me. But his ability to shoot the three and stretch the defense was something that concerned me.

Personally I'd have sat right in the rondo thing. I thought you guys were better with the guys you had just from a match up and depth perspective.

Rondo is a good player, but he just doesn't scare me. No outside shot defense from the pg is a little over rated at times I think. Playmaking is great but that lack of an outside shot is just a killer.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx

Nelson actually worried me more than rondo. Bev isn't going to do much offensively so his defense wasn't that big of a deal to me. But his ability to shoot the three and stretch the defense was something that concerned me.

Rondo guards harden. While he obviously can't stop him he's exponentially better at defending than nelson was. So if we still had nelson it would be ellis on Harden which would lead to early foul trouble for ellis which iirc happened in the first rockets meeting. Nelson's shot was pretty broken here and he had a ton of extremely open looks here. He also was prolly twice as bad as harris at the "wtf pull up 3" frequency even though his shooting was abysmal.

As for wright, I'm pretty sure every mavs fan misses him for bench purposes but last year, in the playoffs vs a good front court in splitter/duncan we had to go to dejuan blair cuz wright got abused almost comically defensively and rebounding. When blair was suspended it was noted as a "key" factor in the loss the following game. When ur 3rd center is a key in a loss, not the starting or primary backup big... u know something is terribly wrong. Wright has always been a beast in PER and whatever stat there is but he might be a better regular season player than post season when the game is slowed down.

[dude1394]

When you pick up a supposed max like, all star, super duper high iq point guard for two bench players your offense should not go in the toilet. Unless said point guard is not nearly what he is cracked up to be.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

When you pick up a supposed max like, all star, super duper high iq point guard for two bench players your offense should not go in the toilet. Unless said point guard is not nearly what he is cracked up to be.

Or unless it requires a complete revamping of a system and you spend a month and half long stretch where you can't practice due to scheduling.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Or unless it requires a complete revamping of a system and you spend a month and half long stretch where you can't practice due to scheduling.

You do realize what you saying. Rondo is so inflexible and so specialized that even on a team with 10+ year veterans the team has to almost completely overhaul the offense because this point guard cannot play it straight.

I know im being harsh but this is a guy some folks think he is actually a max player but his style of play is so rigid that our offense has just been blown up. Ive yet to see the bbiq that has been so highly touted.

Do we think we would be having nearly this trouble with any of the other point guards in the west or east? I dont know about the east as i am not familiar but i am pretty sure any one from the west would be an order of magnitude better.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You do realize what you saying. Rondo is so inflexible and so specialized that even on a team with 10+ year veterans the team has to almost completely overhaul the offense because this point guard cannot play it straight.

I know im being harsh but this is a guy some folks think he is actually a max player but his style of play is so rigid that our offense has just been blown up. Ive het to see the bbiq that has been so highly touted.

Do we think we would be having nearly this trouble with any of the other point guards in the west or east? I dont know about the east as i am not familiar but i am pretty sure any one from the west would be an order of magnitude better.

Bingo. As Dirk and Parsons have said in interviews that they've gone back to basic plays and even those aren't working.

[j0Shi]

There sure is still a lot to be figured out involving Rondo. Ideally, he somehow turns into a Jason Kidd+ that is able to finish at the rim.

The P&R between Kidd and Dirk, which admittedly used to happen a lot less than Terry/Dirk, was much more effective despite Rondo being the superior player it would seem.

And I might reiterate that I still like the 2/5 high P&R between Monta and Chandler in the starting unit. Rondo's shooting deficiencies can be hidden because he can always hockey assist Dirk in the corner on the weak side or fake and drive to the basket without a center that protects the paint.

But that's already a workaround, you don't want Dirk just to spot up all the time.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

There sure is still a lot to be figured out involving Rondo. Ideally, he somehow turns into a Jason Kidd+ that is able to finish at the rim.

The P&R between Kidd and Dirk, which admittedly used to happen a lot less than Terry/Dirk, was much more effective despite Rondo being the superior player it would seem.

And I might reiterate that I still like the 2/5 high P&R between Monta and Chandler in the starting unit. Rondo's shooting deficiencies can be hidden because he can always hockey assist Dirk in the corner on the weak side or fake and drive to the basket without a center that protects the paint.

But that's already a workaround, you don't want Dirk just to spot up all the time.

The problem is that every single play we learned no longer works for a guy who can't shoot OR drive on a team that also has no sharpshooters. Kidd at least could shoot the three, even though he was terrified of driving and we had Terry who could hit a cold-hearted three as the pop-out guy.

Pick and roll? Teams just double the roll guy and beg Rondo to shoot.
Pick and pop? Rondo isn't aggressive driving and Rondo doesn't seem to be very good making a pass to the mid-range. It's a dump down or a kick out, and he hasn't even been good at that.
Ellis drives are effective but don't even include Rondo. Plus, teams don't need to cheat off of the center spot anymore, because they can pack the paint without cheating off of Chandler resulting in fewer oops.
Screen/double screen? Teams just go under and beg Rondo to shoot.

For both of those, we don't have the set shooters to make either of those work. Teams just swarm the paint making all of our plays useless. Parsons is pretty good at 37%. Dirk isn't too far behind at 36%, but doesn't usually hang out there unless he's trailing. After that, we're depending on Devin Harris at 35%. Those are all decent numbers but none of them are sharpshooters who absolutely need to be guarded.

Looks like a roster problem to me made worse by Ricks hands-off approach on offense. We can't run any of our old plays. We can't be run-and-gun/quick strike because we can't rebound. We can't pound it inside, because we don't have a post center. We're not an inside-out team. We're not even an outside-in team either. We're an outside-out team with no go-to play with no role for Rondo.