PGDT: Preseason game 2 - Mavs (1-0) vs. Bucks (0-1) 7:00pm FSSW - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

NeedlesKane · 12-15-2020, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Then there is one more guy who is worse defensivly than Curry: Boban, Jackson, and Barea

That’s not great.

No, Boban is not worse. There you are... just making stuff up.

NeedlesKane · 12-15-2020, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Richardson is shooting 8-10 (80%) on threes

Curry is a 3pt specialist and yet has not even made a single one for them

What are you on tonight? The 76ers haven't even played a game yet this preseason. Of course he hasn't made a single one for them yet. Go to sleep. Your posts are just nonsense.

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

No, I didn't make anything up. It appears that you do though. I actually look at stats. Why don't you try doing the same?

Dude I’m looking at stats right now. Give me one stat that makes THJ look worse than Curry.

The name calling without bringing any stats is getting really stale

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

What are you on tonight? The 76ers haven't even played a game yet this preseason. Of course he hasn't made a single one for them yet. Go to sleep. Your posts are just nonsense.

Dude, develop a sense of humor and chill or don’t post. I post a joke. You lose your shit and name call/break forum rules.

If you’re not having fun, then go elsewhere. This is a place for lighthearted conversation.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-15-2020, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Hey so let’s talk about the off-season trade

We traded a second stringer who missed tons of games with mysterious leg injuries and who was easily our worst defender

For a starter who can play both sides of the ball and who had looked nothing short of exceptional here.

The Mavs are great at trades, and I mean, this is Morey we are talking about too. Got a the fricken 36th pick thrown in as well.

NeedlesKane · 12-15-2020, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dude, develop a sense of humor and chill or don’t post. I post a joke. You lose your shit and name call/break forum rules.

If you’re not having fun, then go elsewhere. This is a place for lighthearted conversation.

Name called? Where? Show me once post in which I name called.

Forum rules: "By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."

If you find my posts as being hateful or threatening, then you're really reaching.

MFFL · 12-15-2020, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

In fairness to Curry he's just not big enough to defend.

There are lots of guys in the NBA his size that struggles to defend....Trae Young and his brother are prime examples.

Curry is 6'2" 185#
VanVleet is 6'1" 197#

VanVleet is an exceptional defender. There a reason that Curry isn't a prime defender but it isn't size

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

Curry is 6'2" 185#
VanVleet is 6'1" 197#

VanVleet is an exceptional defender. There a reason that Curry isn't a prime defender but it isn't size

It’s lateral quickness.

Van Fleet is exceptionally good on his feet.

Curry used to be at least passable defensively but I think he never came back the same after missing that season. His first stint with us, he slid in front of guys, took charges, and had really active hands. His most recent stint with us? He was easily one of our worst defenders. I love the guy and don’t doubt his heart, but I think his body just wouldn’t do it any more.

MFFL · 12-15-2020, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

Worst defender on the team? No worse than Justin Jackson or Tim Hardaway Jr.

I'm not saying that THJ is a great defender but he's a solid team defender

In March 7th I posted this: Of our best defensive lineups with at least 25 minutes played together and with a Defensive Rating of 100 and under, THJ is on all but one

BEST DEFENSIVE LINEUPS [minutes played together and Defensive Rating]
T. Hardaway Jr., D. Powell, K. Porzingis, D. Finney-Smith, J. Brunson 70 89.7
T. Hardaway Jr., D. Wright, D. Finney-Smith, M. Kleber, L. Doncic 29 93.3
T. Hardaway Jr., D. Powell, D. Finney-Smith, M. Kleber, L. Doncic 97 93.5
T. Hardaway Jr., K. Porzingis, D. Finney-Smith, M. Kleber, J. Brunson 82 94
T. Hardaway Jr., S. Curry, K. Porzingis, D. Wright, D. Finney-Smith 25 94.3
T. Hardaway Jr., S. Curry, K. Porzingis, M. Kleber, L. Doncic 50 96.4
T. Hardaway Jr., K. Porzingis, D. Wright, J. Jackson, J. Brunson 29 96.8
T. Hardaway Jr., W. Cauley-Stein, D. Finney-Smith, M. Kleber, J. Brunson 25 97.9
S. Curry, D. Wright, J. Jackson, M. Kleber, J. Brunson 49 100

KiddNPlay · 12-15-2020, 12:35 AM

Kane, I remember when these forums were worth a damn. There are better ones that you can go to so you don't have to deal with moderators who get butthurt when being called out like you just did. I would not return if I were you. This is the most ridiculous ban I've ever seen.

@Erica Maybe you should add that to your rules since they're NOTHING about respect in there.

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiddNPlay

Kane, I remember when these forums were worth a damn. There are better ones that you can go to so you don't have to deal with moderators who get butthurt when being called out like you just did. I would not return if I were you. This is the most ridiculous ban I've ever seen.

@Erica Maybe you should add that to your rules since they're NOTHING about respect in there.

It’s honestly a little concerning that you post this pretending to be a second person. A basic mod search shows that this is another Needleskane account using the exact same IP.

Also I’ll post this without comment:

Quote:

Respectfulness – We require our members to show respect for others. Respecting their person, their time and their opinions – even if you disagree with them. Respect also includes respecting the right of Dallas-Mavs.com administrators and moderators to make judgments and enforce these Community Standards.

tap2390 · 12-15-2020, 07:12 AM

Did NK really get banned? Honestly both of you kept rattling off “facts” without providing any stats which MFFL finally did. Not a banable offense in my book.

Bryan_Wilson · 12-15-2020, 08:40 AM

The only ban I see is for the weird alternate personality account that was giving him a faux pat on the back. If NK was banned it looks more like it was a temp lets chill out kinda thing.

I think EL was looking at drating and dpm upside down and that is where the confusion was. It's not the first time it's happened to a poster here and it won't be the last(hopefully?).

As for the actual topic- I never rly look at defensive stats because by those same stats it shows Dwight Powell as either our 5th best defender or just as crazy better than dfs and kleber. My eye test, which lets be real is all that anyone cares about, says curry sucked as a defender on a team of suck defenders. THJ sucked less but still wasn't good.

SMC0007 · 12-15-2020, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

The only ban I see is for the weird alternate personality account that was giving him a faux pat on the back. If NK was banned it looks more like it was a temp lets chill out kinda thing.

I think EL was looking at drating and dpm upside down and that is where the confusion was. It's not the first time it's happened to a poster here and it won't be the last(hopefully?).

As for the actual topic- I never rly look at defensive stats because by those same stats it shows Dwight Powell as either our 5th best defender or just as crazy better than dfs and kleber. My eye test, which lets be real is all that anyone cares about, says curry sucked as a defender on a team of suck defenders. THJ sucked less but still wasn't good.

Eye test for the win. I personally give poster more credit based on the accuracy of the eye test. The stats can be skewed and misleading. Well some of them, and I use them but try not to as the foundation of my point.

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

The only ban I see is for the weird alternate personality account that was giving him a faux pat on the back. If NK was banned it looks more like it was a temp lets chill out kinda thing.

I think EL was looking at drating and dpm upside down and that is where the confusion was. It's not the first time it's happened to a poster here and it won't be the last(hopefully?).

As for the actual topic- I never rly look at defensive stats because by those same stats it shows Dwight Powell as either our 5th best defender or just as crazy better than dfs and kleber. My eye test, which lets be real is all that anyone cares about, says curry sucked as a defender on a team of suck defenders. THJ sucked less but still wasn't good.

DPM?

As I said in the post, I was looking at
defensive win share (higher is better) and
defensive rating (lower is better).

I'm not sure I messed up/flipped either of those as being on a computer this morning things look the same.

Are either one the end-all-be-all? Absolutely not. Defensive stats are problematic to say the least (win share is biased toward steals/blocks while defensive rating is as much about supporting cast as it is about individual defense), but at least a start. I'm not sure if I see a single stat or approach that paints THJ as the worst defender than Curry nor any stat or approach that made Curry look like a passable defender.

Scoobay · 12-15-2020, 09:25 AM

THJ still has that little bit of crazy in him which can be good/bad. Watching him i knew he was getting frustrated a bit feeling like he was getting pushed around. He just gets into that mode where you know if he has even an inch of space he's going to put his head down and look for his own shot. It's good if/when he makes it lol and i think last night he did. It's in these situations where he also visibly cranks up his defensive intensity (for all the good it does him) - at least he looks like he's trying hard.

Bryan_Wilson · 12-15-2020, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

DPM?

I was looking at defensive win share (higher is better) and
defensive rating (lower is better).

I'm not sure I messed up/flipped either of those.

Are either one the end-all-be-all? Absolutely not. Defensive stats are problematic to say the least (win share is biased toward steals/blocks while defensive rating is as much about supporting cast as it is about individual defense), but at least a start. I'm not sure if I see a single stat or approach that paints THJ as the worst defender than Curry nor any stat or approach that made Curry look like a passable defender.

Ah, then coincidently your comment about "Brunson (7th best) and THJ (4th best)" just so happen to line up with the inverse of dpm(I probably should have said dbpm) as well as defensive win shares. That's actually kinda funny. Then it wasn't a mistake but simply two people using 2 different stats.

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Ah, then coincidently your comment about "Brunson (7th best) and THJ (4th best)" just so happen to line up with the inverse of dpm(I probably should have said dbpm) as well as defensive win shares. That's actually kinda funny. Then it wasn't a mistake but simply two people using 2 different stats.

Where do you find the DPM? I'm always looking for more statistical ways to dig in.

Edit: basketball reference. Cool.

DBPM leaders last season
WCS
Delon
Lee
Doncic
Powell (he just played with a strongly coached first unit?)
Broek (I have no explanation other than he played with hustle squad)
KP (did dig in late and was a net positive defensively)
Kleber
DFS
MKG
Burke
Curry
Brunson
Jackson
THJ
Boban
Barea

Defensive win shares
KP
Doncic
Delon
Kleber
DFS
THJ
Powell
Curry
Jackson
Brunson
Bobs
Lee
WCS
Barea
Burke
Broek
MKG

defensive rating
MKG
WCS
Brunson
Powell
Kleber
KP
Delon
DFS
Barea
Lee
THJ
Boban
Curry
Doncic
Jackson
Broek
Burke

You can definitely see trends, but man, some guys are always low (Boban) while some players are super high in some and super low in others (WCS)

Bryan_Wilson · 12-15-2020, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Where do you find the DPM? I'm always looking for more statistical ways to dig in.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...l#advanced::19

Edit-
https://www.basketball-reference.com...l#advanced::24

The top is DWS

Scoobay · 12-15-2020, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

You can definitely see trends, but man, some guys are always low (Boban) while some players are super high in some and super low in others (WCS)

WCS was low in win shares - doesn't that directly relate to total playing time?

EricaLubarsky · 12-15-2020, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

WCS was low in win shares - doesn't that directly relate to total playing time?

True. I at one point was looking at defensive win shares per minute, but that list is just win shares.

Curry is low in two of those, but right in the middle in win shares, which can be attributed to how many minutes he got.

BigDog63 · 12-15-2020, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Powell rolled to the rim and does NOT have that lift anymore. Maybe he will just have to work his way back into game shape, but that is the achilles concern.

I would think he will improve on that over time, the question is to what level? As we've seen before, often not back to what it was before.

Which may be one of the reasons RC is giving him minutes...to let that Achilles get some work in, during preseason, and to see what he has, and if it improves over the preseason.

Glad we're winning these games, but winning preseason is never really the goal. It's to get set to play the regular season.

BigDog63 · 12-15-2020, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Eye test for the win. I personally give poster more credit based on the accuracy of the eye test. The stats can be skewed and misleading. Well some of them, and I use them but try not to as the foundation of my point.

Definitely something to be said for eye test, BUT the whole reason analytics came on was that the eye often lies, and there can be some underlying statistics which pretty conclusively say something else, or point out the 'why' of something you can see, but not define.

The bigger issue on stats here is 1) they are preseason, and 2) they are VERY short term. Which gets back to what was seen. Of course what WE see, and what RC sees, or likely two very different things.

Dallas41 · 12-15-2020, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

2 impressive games without KP.

I know it's just preseason but I'm little concerned about the defense

Underneath the surface by the 3rd qtr they were allowing 55% shooting to the Bucks and they only shot 42%.

It looked like the Bucks could get to rim at will and there was no rim protection once they got there.

I also noticed Milwaukee had the lead 83-79 with 4:26 left in the 3rd qtr before Luka took that defensive frustration foul after he missed a shot.

That thing that concerns me is Luka always getting mad and then giving up on defense if he doesn't get a foul call.

SMC0007 · 12-15-2020, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I know it's just preseason but I'm little concerned about the defense

Underneath the surface by the 3rd qtr they were allowing 55% shooting to the Bucks and they only shot 42%.

It looked like the Bucks could get to rim at will and there was no rim protection once they got there.

I also noticed Milwaukee had the lead 83-79 with 4:26 left in the 3rd qtr before Luka took that defensive frustration foul after he missed a shot.

That thing that concerns me is Luka always getting mad and then giving up on defense if he doesn't get a foul call.

I wouldn't worry about it. We are going to be a better defensive team. DP is not a rim protector, he's not any type of noteworthy defender really. KP being out is a big deal. DP is being overused and JJ didnt play many meaningful minutes so idk what we can really exoect.

MFFL · 12-15-2020, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I wouldn't worry about it. We are going to be a better defensive team. DP is not a rim protector, he's not any type of noteworthy defender really. KP being out is a big deal. DP is being overused and JJ didnt play many meaningful minutes so idk what we can really exoect.

I really think the defense will just tread water until KP comes back. DP isn't a great defender BEFORE the injury and it will take time for him to get back - until then he is a bad defender

WCS I think will be a serviceable backup to KP - especially if he can hit those wide open 3's

SMC0007 · 12-16-2020, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

I really think the defense will just tread water until KP comes back. DP isn't a great defender BEFORE the injury and it will take time for him to get back - until then he is a bad defender

WCS I think will be a serviceable backup to KP - especially if he can hit those wide open 3's

I have zero hopes that DP ever becomes a good defender. He doesn't have the instincts. Right now we are sorta forced to start him and until we get a better option he is going to get more minutes with the big guns than most of us want to see.