Don Nelson is a Hall of Fame Coach - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-16-2001, 09:39 PM

Hello everyone. I am new to the board, but have read many posts on here over the last week. However something Reeds wrote really made me upset. He said that Don Nelson was his least favorite maverick, and that the mavs would never win the title with nellie as coach. I guess he thinks that nellie is a bad coach, although I am not exactly sure how he feels about Nellie. He also said that Nellie is one of the worst evaluators of talent in the nba. He told someone to prove him wrong, so i will. And it won't be very difficult at all.
Don Nelson is the third winningest coach in the history of the nba. He has led a team to over 50 wins, 10 different times. He has won 3 coach of the year awards. He was voted by his peers, as one of the TEN GREATEST COACHES EVER!!! He took a bad milwaukee team and made them into a great team for almost a decade. He took a bad golden state team and made them into a great team. Now he has taken the mavs from a bad team, to a great team. He has taken three different bad teams and made them into great teams. I can't think of any other coach who has ever done that. Don Nelson is going to the HALL OF FAME as a coach. Only great coaches go to the hall of fame, just like only great players go to the hall of fame.
Also, Reeds said that don nelson was a bad evaluator of talent. I couldn't disagree more. In fact, i think don nelson is one of the best evaluators of talent ever. Reeds, i dare you to find another gm who has drafted better talent than Don Nelson has. It will be tough Reeds, cause I don't think that anyone ever has. Just look at all the players Nellie has drafted. Chris Webber with #1 pick, tim hardaway in middle of first round, mitch richmond, latrell sprewell in the late first round, Dirk Nowitzki with the #9 pick in the draft, etc. He has also drafted many others who have been allstars, or are still playing in the league today. And none of these picks were top 5 picks in any draft, except for webber. Let's just look at his drafts in dallas. In the first round, with no pick higher than #9 in any of the drafts, Nellie drafted Dirk Nowitzki(who will be one of the top 5 players in the league in a couple years), courtney alexander(would have probably been ROY if he was on the wizards the whole season), etan thomas(too early to tell),Donnel Harvey(lots of potential and doing very well in summer league), Chris Antsey (was a middle first round pick who although decent, didn't pan out), and Leon Smith (last pick in first round who didn't pan out). Lets look at the second round now. Nellie drafted greg buckner(best defender on the mavs, good player, and a steal at where he was drafted), Eduardo Najera(another second round steal with a ton of energy), and Wang Zhizhi(7 foot 1 center with a very nice jumpshot, and would have probably been a top 15 pick in this year's draft). That was in the second round. If a second rounder ever makes the team, he is considered a steal. These players could all become big contributors down the road for the mavs. Just from looking at how Nellie has drafted in dallas, not to mention the steve nash trade, he has clearly done a fabulous job in the draft.
Now back to a comment you made earlier Reeds. You said that nellie is the winningest coach in nba history without winning a title. I know Lenny Wilkins is the all time winningest coach ever, but I don't think lenny wilkins has ever coached a team to the title. I could be wrong on this, so if someone could look it up i'd appreciate it. However, i don't think lenny wilkens has ever won a title.
Anyway, the point is that Nellie is a great coach. He is probably the most underrated basketball mind in the history of the nba. People like to point out that he never won a title. However, I can't understand why people were saying, at the beginning of the season, that larry brown was such a great coach, when he had never gone to the finals in his career. Now he finally has, although it was in one of the weakest eastern conferences ever. Anyway i think Larry Brown is a great coach, but this just shows how undervalued Nellie is. Don Nelson has a better resume than larry brown does in the nba. If Nellie had jordan and pippen or shaq and kobe, i guarantee you nellie would have won many championships. The point I am making is that Nellie has done what few have been able to do. On three different teams, he has transformed a bad team into a great team. To me that's just as impressive as winning a title. Everywhere Nellie has gone, he has built his teams into winners. He has taken teams in bad situations and made them great teams. He didn't just go to a team like the bulls with mj and pippen, and win a title. He didn't go the lakers with shaq and kobe, and win a title. He made bad teams into great teams, and that is extremely impressive. Saying he isn't a great coach cause he hasn't won a title is ridiculous. Is Karl Malone a great player? Is john stockton? Is charles barkley? I could go on and on, but you get the point.
Just to sum things up, I'd like to say that dallas is extremely lucky to have Don Nelson as their coach. He will be in the HALL OF FAME AS A COACH. I really think he will coach the mavs to a championship in a few years. His resume as a coach is so full of accomplishments, that he can be compared to any of the greatest coaches. In other words, I am saying that Don Nelson is one of THE BEST COACHES EVER, and one of THE BEST EVALUATORS OF TALENT EVER.

Murphy3 · 07-16-2001, 09:45 PM

synopsis please.
i don't have that long of an attention span..

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
and i agree, nellie is definitely a great nba coach..and evaluator of talent...like anyone else, he misses at times also

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-16-2001, 09:50 PM

True, he has had a few misses. However, everyone has a few misses. The point I was making is that nellie hits the target a lot more than he misses. By the way, sorry about writing such a long post, I just felt it was important to make sure I didn't leave much stuff out.

MFFL · 07-16-2001, 09:58 PM

the mffl synopsis for murph

Don Nelson is a great coach. reeds is an idiot for saying otherwise.

Mavinator · 07-16-2001, 10:04 PM

Hear, hear. Excellent post...

The Crippler · 07-16-2001, 10:37 PM

yep, reeds is an idiot. nelson is good. good post.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 07-16-2001, 10:57 PM

PeterVesceyisdumb, it seems you like Dirk Nowitzki, he's my man ...
Welcome aboard ... but I'm not sure about Nelson ...
I mean I want the titel, not second best kinda stuff ...

LonestarROB · 07-16-2001, 11:10 PM

Great post Peter Vescey. I agree, Don Nelson is a great coach.

Btw, Welcome to the board. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

reeds · 07-17-2001, 09:08 AM

Hey Pete- how many championships has the man won???????? COME ONE-HOW MANY??????? Titles talk- i dont give a shit if the man goes undefeated in the regular season- if he loses come crunch time- he is a LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheKid · 07-17-2001, 09:18 AM

Welcome to the board Vesey (I love that name)

I agree to a certain extent. I agree that Nellie will be a hall of fame coach, and I LOVE the fact that he's the Mavericks coach too. However some of your points aren't that strong. He turned all those teams around and made them playoff bound teams, he's never won the championship. While I'm a person who truly don't think winning it all is a the only way to measure greatness, it does say something. Nellie has never won, and I like everyone else on this board hopes he gets his first here in Dallas. Also in saying that EVERY place he's been he's won, is false. He went to the Knicks and turned a winning team into a losing team. Now granted it was for such a short period of time, who knows what would have happened, but the fact remains they were not winning with him there, that's why they fired him.

Also your facts about him evaluating talent, there are two people you mentioned that we can say shows Nellie's a good evaluator. Dirk and Sprewell. That's it! Richmond and Hardaway were top prospects on everyone's list so I don't really give Nellie credit there. Thomas, Harvey, Najera, the jury still out on them, but if they pan out then you're right there. The other people you mentioned didn't work out so it doesn't matter mentioning them. The Chris Webber thing, he was drafted by Orlando and traded to the Warriors because the Magic team didn't want to star players (Shaq and Webber) who both were below average free throw shooters. Also that trade was worked out before the draft too. I wouldn't necessarily say that shows his ability to evaluate talent because Webber was going to be the number one pick regardless of who picked.

So I say this to simply say, before we go too far and say Nellie is the greatest, let's hope he wins one in Dallas (preferably this year)!

MFFL · 07-17-2001, 11:06 AM

Hey reeds -

I guess Barry Sanders is a loser - no championships. Lump Stockston and Malone in that loser category. Dan Marino never won the big one either - I guess he sucks too.

Winning the championship is important, but NOT the overall definition of greatness.

Murphy3 · 07-17-2001, 11:22 AM

i suppose griffey's a loser also...never won a championship.
well, i guess he doesn't count since you're such a big supporter of him reeds....

scratch griffey jr off the list of winners, he doesn't count....he's a loser now.

reeds, have you ever been the best in the world at your profession..or been part of the best work team or best organization in the world?...
if not, does that make you a loser?...well, other things may or may not make you a loser...we won't get in to that.

reeds · 07-17-2001, 03:58 PM

I understand your points, and you are correct. You dont have to win it all to be great- there are many sports hero's that havent. But what do you think of when you hear "Marino". I think of the most passing yards ever- but then, right away I also think of the QB who didnt win a worlds championship. Is it fair- NO, he was awsome- but, never the less, I associate him with not winning the big one. Barry Sanders situation was different- he was never on a team that was good enough to win it all- Marino was. Thats where my Don Nelson take is a bit different- he was close- and maybe had the talent to win it all- but failed. So when someone asks me who I think was a "great coach", the list seems to be the ones who have won it all- Lombardi (packers rule),Parcells,Landry,Knox,Red Auerbach,Phil Jackson, Coach K (Duke-wont even try to spell that name),Pat Riley, Dean Smith- but Don Nelsons name never comes up..Is that fair? Maybe not- but its just my philsophy.

Even the Buffalo BIlls are hard for me to put on the list of great teams. They got near the promised land, but never finished the deal- and that is what the general public will remember- not quite getting it done!

And Murphy- dont diss my boy Griffey- the greatest player alive!!Lol..dissing me is fine- but not the KID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-17-2001, 05:47 PM

Unfortunately, I just got through making a post, and for some reason it didn't post. So I guess I have to write it again. Anyway, I am glad many people appreciate the Job Nellie has done with the mavs. I am just going to respond to a couple of things, and don't worry, the post won't be too long.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
As far as Nellie's brief tenure at New York, he really wasn't given a chance. He wasn't fired cause the team was losing. In fact they were on pace to win over 50 games. I think it was actually over 55, but I am not sure. He was fired because of a difference in opinion with some of the players. Nellie saw that the knicks had been unable to win it all with their current style of offense they were using. Nellie wanted to make the offense more of an uptempo offense, and make the focus of the offense less on Ewing. What happened was that the older players, like ewing, who had previous success in their previous offensive system, didn't want to change. Their egos were hurt, and they didn't want the offense to change. Some of the older players like ewing, oakley, etc. were stubborn and wanted to use the old style of offense. Therefore, Nellie was released. Nellie's release had nothing to do with wins, it had to do with some of the older knicks players egos getting hurt, and their unwillingness to change. The funny thing is that within 2 years of the knicks releasing nellie, they changed their offense completely. In fact, it is now basically how nellie wanted the offense to be like. Ewing is gone, cause the knicks thought he was holding their team back. Heck, they even got one of nellie former players, sprewell. Anyway, it's just kind of funny to me that they now use basically the kind of offense, that nellie wanted them to use in the first place.
As far as Nellie's skills as an evaluator of talent, he is a great evaluator of talent. I only listed the players like webber, t. hardaway, etc. cause I didn't want to make the post that long. However, Nellie has drafted many more good players than that. And he has done that without having a top 5 pick, except for webber. He has drafted countless good players over the years. He has found players in the 2nd round like tyrone hill and chris gatling, who while aren't stars, are decent players who have made the all star team before. As far as t. hardaway being a top prospect, he wasn't that highly touted. He certainly wasn't touted anywhere near as high as someone like webber was. Tim hardaway came from a small college, and many scouts thought he was too short to short to play in the nba. Nellie drafted hardaway in the middle of the first round, so apparently many coaches thought there was about 15 players better than tim hardaway in that draft.
Anyway, I just wanted to respond to a couple of points. The kid, I can tell you put some thought into your replies, and appreciate you taking the time to do so. Thanks for responding everyone.

TheKid · 07-17-2001, 06:59 PM

Vecey,

Like I said, I'm not here to bash Nellie because I like the guy. However they fired him for the fact that he and the players were on different pages true, but also because he was losing. When he was fired they were under .500. They had lost 8 games straight as a matter of fact when he was let go. Checketts thought they were much better than a .500 team. Now the irony is they are more of an uptempo team now but he wasn't winning there. They probably could have won 50 games that year, I do think the firing was pre-mature myself, but at the time they were under .500.

Also, the Hardaway thing. He was at Texas El Paso when he was drafted. The problem was he came out in a draft that there were superior players, rather big players. However he was rated the number 2 point guard in the draft that year. So what I'm saying is that wasn't that big of a diamond in the rough for Nellie. Now Gatling, yes, that was, I give many props to Nellie for that. I give him many props for Dirk and Latrell. Hell I give him props all around, but the Hardaway thing was a bit of a stretch to give him more credit.

Also just a side note, you really don't have to prove to anyone on this board that Nellie is an EXCELLENT coach, most people understand that. I hope anyway.

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-17-2001, 08:24 PM

The Kid, I copied this article on Don Nelson's firing from the Knicks

---Knicks fire Nelson
The New York Knicks fired coach Don Nelson after less than a season with the struggling team. Assistant coach Jeff Van Gundy will replace Nelson, whose Knicks were 34-25 this season and had lost six of their last eight.
Prior to New York, Nelson had spent almost eight seasons with Golden State.--from WWW reports---

The team was in 4th place in the eastern conference. They were on pace to win about 50 games that season. Anyway, i just wanted to clear up any confusion on the knicks' record while nellie was coach. However, let's not worry about that. I'm just glad he's the coach of the mavs and not the knicks. Anyway, I am happy to see that the mavs fans appreciate Don Nelson.

Mavinator · 07-17-2001, 10:21 PM

Uh, I don't mean to change the subject, but do y'all watch knick games? They are the antithesis of uptempo basketball! They're as boring, slow, grind-it-out as teams come! Van Gundy is like Pat Riley's prized student...

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-17-2001, 11:04 PM

LOL That is true. Watching the knicks this year, they didn't score much and ran a ton of time off the clock on every possession. Looking back at my post, I can see that I wasn't completely clear. Sorry about any confusion I might have caused. What I meant was that Nellie saw that Ewing was past his prime, and wanted less of the offense to revolve around him. He actually wanted more of the offense to be run through the other players. He also wanted Anthony Mason more involved in the offense. He wanted the knicks to be more of an uptempo team. I agree that the knicks are a boring team to watch. They are also a good defensive team. However, they do have players like sprewell and camby, and can run if they have to. I was mainly referring to the fact ewing is gone now, cause the knicks thought he was slowing them down. It was really evident in 99 when the knicks made their run to the finals, without ewing doing much. During that series, they talked about how ewing was slowing their offense down. The knicks are more of jump shooting team now, than when they had ewing. While they don't play up tempo, they have the ability to if they have to.
Here's a question for someone. Remember when when Riley coached the lakers and they had the "showtime" offense? What made Riley change his philosophy on coaching when he went to the knicks and heat? Notice how his knicks and heat teams play the half court, grind it out, boring style of basketball? I was just wondering why his strategy on basketball seems to have changed since his days as coach of the lakers. If anyone knows, let me know. thanks

reeds · 07-18-2001, 11:07 AM

uh oh kid- their dissing your knicks!lol

Oh i almost forgot- the king of all coaches....MR. WOODEN..UCLA college basketball dynasty

TheKid · 07-18-2001, 11:12 AM

No problem, I don't mind, it's other's opinions that's all.

reeds · 07-18-2001, 01:58 PM

Was is Nelson who picked Samaki Walker over Kobe Bryant and Jermaine Oneal? Im actually not sure because I dont follow the Mavs real close, but I think he was coaching them then?

But it was Nelson (while coaching the bucks) who drafted Randy Brewer,Kenny Fields and Jerry Reynolds- all #1 picks, and they all SUCKED. SO sure- he had some good picks, but he had some BAD ONES TOO..

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-18-2001, 05:40 PM

I don't think Nellie was even the gm or coach of the mavs, when they drafted samaki walker. I am pretty sure nellie came to the mavs after Samaki was drafted. As far as dissing the knicks, I wasn't. I like the knicks as a team and always cheered for them when they used to the play the bulls in the early nineties.

Mavinator · 07-18-2001, 07:30 PM

I was definitely dissing the knicks. I hate the knicks with a passion. I hate everyone who ever played for the knicks and everyone who ever will play for the knicks...

Except Mark Jackson. But he's just a Pacer in a knick uniform.

Go Pacers!

Flying Tiger · 07-19-2001, 07:28 PM

MFFL...I know you were try to make a point and all, but NEVER call Barry Sanders a loser!

PS...there are way too many davils and people with rags wraped around their heads in this post.

Mavinator · 07-19-2001, 07:30 PM

I have to agree that there are too many damned devils posting here. I personally think dj should make the devil icon "The Official Icon of Mavinator", and ban all other posters from using it... but that's just me.

#41 · 07-20-2001, 06:38 AM

Great post, Peter. Where do you take this energy from to write such a long text? We need those guys! Here in Germany, my man Dirk, I only get to know stuff from the Mavs on the internet.

Thanks again.MAVERICKS WEBPAGE [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

PeterVesceyisdumb · 07-20-2001, 08:47 PM

I just copied this from the article on frank zaccanelli

-----When Ross Perot Jr. and David McDavid bought the Mavericks from Don Carter in May 1996, Zaccanelli became the hands-on point man. After long-time GM Norm Sonju retired, Zaccanelli wore the interim hat. And kept it on, uncomfortably snug at times, for 10 long months.

"I was painted as the guy who had no concept of basketball, but I played the game, and I'd been around it all my life," Zaccanelli said. "I became famous for my comment that running a basketball team wasn't brain surgery. But looking back, it still isn't."

The hiring of coach Jim Cleamons, signing of Oliver Miller and drafting of Samaki Walker were all Zaccanelli hiccups. But, more important, the acquisition of Finley was his heist.-----

Sorry Reeds, but Frank Zaccanelli was the gm who picked samaki walker in the 96 draft. Don Nelson wasn't even a member of the mavs organization until 1997. Reeds, looks like you'll have to blame frank zaccanelli for drafting samaki.

reeds · 07-21-2001, 12:11 PM

I wasnt sure- thought id take a stab at it.. I just remember who was availible when that terrible pick was made. Kinda like rembering who was availible when Sam Bowie was picked..lol