Who's the better rookie ?

[OutletPass]

Is it Daniels or Howard ?

I'll invite a wide ranging discussion here.

We all thought J HO was an incredible 29 pick.....until we saw Daniels as an undrafted man.

So let's put them on equal footing...and let's just say that the Mavs had the 28th and 29th picks and got them both....who's better right now...and who will be the better pro in the future.

Don't shy away...go out on a limb.

I'll be back with crazy stats and comparisons later.

[MavsFanFinley]

It's tough to decide. Both have shown so much and you know much more is to come.

I'd have to give the edge to Daniels right now because he's a better post up player and appears to have a better jumper than Howard.

Both can rebound, defend, protect the ball, etc...

If they learn when to give the ball up and when to shoot, they'll be near perfect.

[Drbio]

Tough to say in the first year. Plus, Daniels has played so well lately that we all have an emotional pull to him.

In the long run, I go wiht Howard, but I have no reason right now.

[DubOverdose]

Daniels...I've always thought he was atleast as good as Howard if not better, but he didn't play much until Nash was out with the stomach flu. Since then he has really stepped up. His FG% is great...and when he makes a rookie error and misses a layup or something he turns around and gets an amazing steal to make up for his error.

[ddh33]

Honestly, I'm just thrilled to have both. I think they both have bright futures.

I think Howard is more likely to be successful on more teams. I think he could play in different systems a little more effectively than Marquis. But I think Marquis could be a star in this system.

Like I said, I'll take both and be happy that I don't have to pick between them.

[chumdawg]

TOTALLY agreed with DH here, about Howard being the more "complete" player, but being thrilled to have both. It's uncanny, isn't it, the way Howard can stroke the three on occasion?

[Rhylan]

Howard, simply because he can tie his shoes standing up, without bending over.

[OutletPass]

It's hard isn't it...?

J Ho was the rook of the first half....Daniels is the rook of the 2nd half...

Amazing that we have 2 good ones....it's been many years since that happened...but...let's look at 48 minutes stats just to see what his production is like):

Daniels in points per 48 minutes:
Nov..... (6.4min.pg)......31.4 points and 5.0 reb.
Dec......(9.4 min pg ).....23.0 points and 7.7 reb.
Jan.......(17.1 min pg)...15.6 points and 4.4 reb.
Feb......(6.6 min pg)......29.2 points and 4.2 reb.
March...(25.0 min pg)...21.0 points and 7.7 reb.

Now, J HO....per 48 minutes:
Nov.....(14.3 min) ........19.6 points and 11.9 reb.
Dec.....(31.4 min)..........16.2 points and 12 reb.
Jan......(24.1 min).........14.9 points and 11.4 reb.
Feb......(26.2 min).........20.0 points and 10.2 reb.
March..(24.8 min)..........18.6 points and 11.0 reb.

Pretty close now that Marquis is getting comparable minutes...

If you'd like to compare BIG minutes with Jamison, he had 5 months between 25-32 minutes per game and here they are:

Nov.......(28.8 min).......23.4 points and 11.3 reb.
Dec.......(31.2 min).......27.8 points and 10.9 reb.
Jan........(29.8 min).......24.4 points and 9.1 reb.
Feb.......(26.1 min).......16.9 points and 10.7 reb.
March....(28.9 min).......24.2 points and 10.0 reb.

Walker had only one month in the 25-31 minutes per game range:
March....(28.8 min)......16.0 points and 12.4 reb.

Just the stats...just the stats.

[EricaLubarsky]

Im still leaning toward Howard, but Ill admit it's just my attitude and not facts. I will say that Daniels should have gone in the first round and Howard should have gone 5-10.

[Poindexter Einstein]

I suspect I am in the minority here, but I think Howard is incredibly overrated.

He got raves for his D early on, but since about the first month of the season it has been incredibly lackadaisical and unimpressive - he has lots of athleticism but he reaches (where do you think his propensity to get in foul trouble came from?) and sags off, and he looks like a matador when trying to stop a drive. On offense he is even worse, hoisting up any open looks as if he had the stroke of Dirk. I think his massive shortcomings are why Daniels has clearly passed him in the rotation - he is just too lazy and undisciplined. IMO Nellie has gotten burned repeatedly by depending on him, and instead getting mostly half-assed play. I think he is likely to get very sporadic minutes unless he finds a way to improve his focus and intensity.

So to me, at this point, Daniels offers far more.

[SaltwaterChaffy]

I'm going to agree with PE to a point. I still think that JHo's length and decent quickness offer's the potential to play great defense. He has done so at times this season, but it (sadly) seems like the perimeter defensive laziness of the Mavs is rubbing off on him. I don't know if I'd call him overrated, because frankly, no one has rated him outside this board. I think he's got great potential, but I'm not ready to ship Fin off yet.

Marquis has shown a lot to me lately. His confidence seems to be skyrocketing, and his ability to get to the basket whenever he wants is very exciting. I think that he could be the guy who brings some swagger and confidence (ala NVE) back to the Mavs. However, he really needs to work on his court vision, especially if he's going to be placed in the point guard position. On the fast break, he (JHo as well) never looks to pass, only to try and finish. I still like this kid a lot.

At this point, I'd have to give the edge to Daniels.

[Maringa]

My preference for right now is Marquis Daniels...He plays a little bit smarter than Howard. How many times do you remember Howard getting his shot blocked? It seemed like he joined Walker in having about two or three shots blocked a game. Marquis is able to "squeeze" the ball around the defender a little better. Marquis also handles the ball a little better and has a better perimeter shot. The only negative I've seen lately is that he is a little greedy and "possibly" getting a little cocky (this can also be a positive).

My major strike against Josh Howard right now is that he seems to be a little bit injury prone. He got hurt again last night...I hope he isn't another Buckner....I don't want another 5 games on, 3 games off player....

[Male30Dan]

Josh Daniels...

Definitely Josh Daniels...

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I say take them both and be glad you are in a position to have such a youth movement... Two guys that could actually accumulate 25+ minutes in a system with 4 all-stars starting??? Yeah, that is a good thing in my opinion... To be honest, I have NO IDEA who is better... I agree with Doc though about us all leaning towards Daniels due to his recent accolades... I think I like Josh better as far as an overall athlete with his great size and length, but Daniels could easily be as good or better...

[Dooby]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
I suspect I am in the minority here, but I think Howard is incredibly overrated.

He got raves for his D early on, but since about the first month of the season it has been incredibly lackadaisical and unimpressive - he has lots of athleticism but he reaches (where do you think his propensity to get in foul trouble came from?) and sags off, and he looks like a matador when trying to stop a drive. On offense he is even worse, hoisting up any open looks as if he had the stroke of Dirk. I think his massive shortcomings are why Daniels has clearly passed him in the rotation - he is just too lazy and undisciplined. IMO Nellie has gotten burned repeatedly by depending on him, and instead getting mostly half-assed play. I think he is likely to get very sporadic minutes unless he finds a way to improve his focus and intensity.

So to me, at this point, Daniels offers far more.

Guess what I am going to say. Regardless of what Nellie says, if you can't shoot, you are not getting on the floor. So an above-average defender starts letting it slide on the defensive end.

[kg_veteran]

It's a tough question, but I think Howard's the better player at this point. Marquis is getting more time right now because Nellie wants the best ballhandling possible on the floor, and Marquis provides better ballhandling than Howard. If you've noticed, Marquis is bringing the ball up the floor a lot to save wear and tear on Steve, and it's making a big difference. Steve is playing magnificent ball.

Both are versatile players; neither has a true jump shot. Both have remarkably improved their shooting percentages as the season has gone on; yet, they both still force too many shots in traffic.

I see PE's point about Howard's defense, but I don't totally agree. There have been games recently when Howard just hasn't seemed to be focused (Ortegel commented on it during the Cleveland game early on), but I look at it as more of a focus issue than anything. Howard was terrific guarding Kobe in the big win in LA earlier this season. He was terrific guarding Stojakovic when I saw the Mavs beat them in January. I've seen plenty of good defense out of Howard. He just needs to bring it every night. Thankfully, the Mavs are deep enough to survive it if he doesn't.

Down the road, I think Howard is going to be a guy capable of giving you 18 ppg, 8 rpg, and tremendous defense from the SF spot. I see Daniels as a guy capable of 20/5/5 at some point in his career. In other words, both are going to be tremendous assets to the team for quite a while to come.

[Stressboy]

Howard is the best by far. The guy will avg 10 rebounds a game from the SF position in the next 3 years. He might be a 20/10 guy from the SF spot. How many SF do that? Garnett, Odom, Marshall, Marion are the only 4. He can defend a lot of PF, SF, SG and some PG. PE and some others rag on him for his bad defense, but on a bad defensive team that plays zone 50-60% of the time and teaches the slapping technique, no one will look good. Howard has the ability to be as imposing on defense as Pippen. If Nellie is the coach, that may never happen, but if Avery for instance takes over, I could easiliy see him improving.

Danials is much like Crawford for Chicago or Arenas from Washington. All are tall pg/sg that score the ball first, and can do all the other things, but are most effective with the ball in their hands. Danials has really impressed especially his post up game, and it is obvious that Donnie is a great evaluator of talent and he was right that he can definately run the point as the second guy. Nellies system is tailor made for the shoot first PG, but it is the exceptional PG like Nash, that can still make his teammates better while getting his and none of the 3 I just mentioned really fall into that category.

The good thing is that we essentially got 2 players that could be as good as Donyell Marshall and Crawford (and they might be much better than those two) for tha last pick in the first round amazing.

Stressboy

[Murphy3]

Howard's had the better season. But, Daniels is probably playing better at this point in time than Howard has played at any point in his rookie season.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Howard's had the better season. But, Daniels is probably playing better at this point in time than Howard has played at any point in his rookie season.

That's certainly debatable. When either of them gets heavy minutes, to their credit, they produce. Marquis is playing great basketball right now, but Josh looked pretty darn good in the last two games before sitting out with hamstring issues last night (19 ppg, 9.5 rpg).

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

That's certainly debatable. When either of them gets heavy minutes, to their credit, they produce. Marquis is playing great basketball right now, but Josh looked pretty darn good in the last two games before sitting out with hamstring issues last night (19 ppg, 9.5 rpg).

KG, if I were to try and disagree with myself, I'd probably point to what Howard did in December. My statement was kinda broad. I didn't really put a time frame for the amount of time that I was discussing when I said 'at this point in time'. Was I talking about 4-5 games or a month? Well, probably a 4-5 game stretch. There was a 4 game stretch in December where Howard averaged around 13 points or so and more than 9.5 boards a game. I don't have the exact numbers for the past four games for Daniels, but it's probably around 20-21 ppg, 7 boards, and 4-5 assists while shooting a high percentage.

[Stitch Jones]

I love Howard's potential - however, I think his confidence is lacking a bit right now due to his jumper not falling and although this may be a bit of a stretch, I think he's pressing somewhat due to the success Marquis is having.

Having said that, I love the confidence, aggressiveness and quickness/shiftiness Marquis employs when attacking the basket. He's just so deceptive. There were those around here who questioned his ability to push the ball earlier this season, well I think last night's second quarter addressed that issue soundly. I think what can seperate Marquis from the pack is his mid-range game. You just don't see it that much from a young player. He has that high release which makes it easy for him to get it off even in traffic. In time, defenses will adjust a bit to his shiftiness but that 10 - 15 footer if honed, will be unstoppable.

Also, you gotta love the stone-cold, facial expression he plays with no matter what the scenario. He's got the innate ability to make up for blunders rather quickly, like a good DB that picks off the out-route after just getting smoked on the slant.

How did you like that dunk after the steal on Peja? Did you see how he pulled his arms back before landing just to give it a little extra flavor. I loved that.

[mavsman55]

In terms of statistics, Daniels is the better player. But consistency-wise, Howard has really proven himself. Howard has shown that he is a contributer all year long... Daniels has shown that he is a contributor for a few weeks now... not saying that Daniels is inconsistent, but you can't really tell after a few great games. As of right now, they are both contributing the same amount in their own ways, and I am pleased with both of them.

[DubOverdose]

They are the only two rookies in the NBA that have more steals than turnovers...NBA.com says Marquis has the 3rd highest steal per turnover ratio in the NBA.