Who?

[dalmations202]

I am bored, so I was thinking -- who should Donnie be calling about trying to set up a trade that could put Dallas over the top.
Give me a list of 5 guys that Donnie should be calling on to "try" and lay the groundwork for a player that might put the Mavs over th top.
Please don't include Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, Amare, O'Neill,Yao or TMac on the list --- I think they are untouchable presently.
My list:
1) Dwight Howard -- close to untochable, but Donnie still needs to be calling.
2) Chris Bosh -- who knows what Toronto might do
3) Pau Gasol
4) Brad Miller
5) Paul Pierce

There are many other "nice" players, and I am sure I missed some: but who, IYO, should Donnie be trying to "find the cost" for?

[madape]

Start with the point guard.

Jason Kidd would get my vote.

[Five-ofan]

Dwight Howard but you arent gonna get him for less than dirk. Gasol I wouldnt think would fit well with us already having Dirk and KVH.

[dalmations202]

Gasol I wouldnt think would fit well with us already having Dirk and KVH.

Gasol, IMO, would be either GREAT or awful. Gasol would basically be the Center, but that really shouldn't matter with a system D.

If Dallas turns to a system "D" with switches @ picks, and everyone doubled in the paint --- ie SA defense.

Then Gasol, Nowitzki, KVH on the floor at the same time would be nightmares on teams from the offensive standpoint. Gasol could score inside anytime and be basically guarenteed one on one because of Dirk and KVH.
Gasol is very good 18' in. He is one of the better post scorers. That ability alone would keep Dirk from being doubled and trippled as much on the outside.

Howard would start over KVH at SF, but could even move to the SG when playing the lakers, Houston, and teams like that.

Stack would be offensive heaven, with the bigs having to come out at least 18' to cover those three bigs. Terry could basically spot up anytime, anywhere.

Admittedly it would make this team more offensive minded, but if Avery can teach them system D, then they could score on anyone anytime with the fast break, the half court set, the pick-n-roll out of 3 or 4 different players, inside/out against some teams, and many differing forms of the princeton passing offense --- and still have enough defense and rebounding with 3 players on the court most of the time that were 6'10" and taller.

Then again, it could be an absolute bust with Gasol, Nowitzki, KVH defense being non-existent. I'd like to see it tried though.

[madape]

I figured out who the one player is that would put the Mavericks over the top..

Steve Nash.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Here's my list:

1. Paul Pierce
2. Paul Pierce
3. Paul Pierce
4. Paul Pierce
5. Paul Pierce

Oh yeah, and Nash can suck it.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: dalmations202
1) Dwight Howard -- close to untochable, but Donnie still needs to be calling.
2) Chris Bosh -- who knows what Toronto might do
3) Pau Gasol
4) Brad Miller
5) Paul Pierce

Brad Miller would put us over the top??? Miller's a nice player, but he'll get you killed on defense, and on the offensive glass. He'd be a huge step backwards defensively. On some other teams, maybe, but for this team I'll take Damp over Miller any day.

[Poindexter Einstein]

I would consider Howard and Bosh "untouchable" unless you trade Dirk, so forget those. I'd love to have either.

Of the ones who might realistically be available, the one big prize that would help the Mavs the most and that seems to be out there is Paul Pierce. I'm not sure there is any other "available" player that puts the Mavs over the top.

[Poindexter Einstein]

I would consider Howard and Bosh "untouchable" unless you trade Dirk, so forget those. I'd love to have either.

Of the ones who might realistically be available, the one big prize that would help the Mavs the most and that seems to be out there is Paul Pierce. I'm not sure there is any other "available" player that puts the Mavs over the top.

[Poindexter Einstein]

I would consider Howard and Bosh "untouchable" unless you trade Dirk, so forget those. I'd love to have either.

Of the ones who might realistically be available, the one big prize that would help the Mavs the most and that seems to be out there is Paul Pierce. I'm not sure there is any other "available" player that puts the Mavs over the top.

[mavfan2390]

hey, i would trade dirk and maybe howard, for howard and franchise

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: mavfan2390
hey, i would trade dirk and maybe howard, for howard and franchise

I wouldn't.

[fin4life]

There is no star-quality player I would want to have less than Stevie Franchise. I wouldnt trade TAW/Bradley for franchise.

[fin4life]

There is no star-quality player I would want to have less than Stevie Franchise. I wouldnt trade TAW/Bradley for franchise.

[dalmations202]

Brad Miller would put us over the top??? Miller's a nice player, but he'll get you killed on defense, and on the offensive glass. He'd be a huge step backwards defensively. On some other teams, maybe, but for this team I'll take Damp over Miller any day.

Miller over the last 2 years has avg 15/10 to Damps 10/10. Over the last four Miller has avg more points each year than Damp in his best (contract) year ever. Over the last four years, Miller has been a better rebounder than Damp in every year except Damp's contract year.

Not sure how you call Damp tons better on D either, but that is subjective so OK. Both are within a pound or two of each other. Miller is a year younger, and an inch taller. Miller definately has more range offensively, and is far superior offensively.

Do you think that when Dirk says that they need production out of the center position, that he is talking about defensive production?
IMO, he is talking about someone who can score, so that he isn't doubled and tripled by every frontcourt player because they have no center who can be productive in the paint.

IMO, and admittedly this is my opinion, Dirk could be destroying the league by utilizing his outside play, if the Mavs had a center that could demand double teams in the paint. Unfortunately there are very few centers in the league that actually demand a double team in the paint. I just think that Miller, Gasol, Howard, and Bosh are players that would demand that double team, allowing for Dirk to be a monster on both ends of the court.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

Miller over the last 2 years has avg 15/10 to Damps 10/10. Over the last four Miller has avg more points each year than Damp in his best (contract) year ever. Over the last four years, Miller has been a better rebounder than Damp in every year except Damp's contract year.

And that's enough of an upgrade to win us a title?

Not sure how you call Damp tons better on D either, but that is subjective so OK. Both are within a pound or two of each other. Miller is a year younger, and an inch taller. Miller definately has more range offensively, and is far superior offensively.

Never said Miller wasn't superior offensively. But there's a reason Sacramento is so soft in the paint. Damp is one of the better post up defenders in the league. Defensively, Miller is in the Raef LaFrentz range.

Do you think that when Dirk says that they need production out of the center position, that he is talking about defensive production?
IMO, he is talking about someone who can score, so that he isn't doubled and tripled by every frontcourt player because they have no center who can be productive in the paint.

Well, Amare had 40 that night, so yeah, he very well could have been talking about defensive production as well as offense. And Miller is not productive in the paint. He's productive from mid-range. Miller is a finesse, jumpshooting center.

IMO, and admittedly this is my opinion, Dirk could be destroying the league by utilizing his outside play, if the Mavs had a center that could demand double teams in the paint. Unfortunately there are very few centers in the league that actually demand a double team in the paint. I just think that Miller, Gasol, Howard, and Bosh are players that would demand that double team

Again, I don't know where you got the idea that Miller scores in the paint, or that he's not a defensive liability. I've watched Brad Miller since he played for Indiana, and I've never seen JO or C-Webb or anyone else get freed up because Miller was drawing a double-team anywhere on the court, let alone in the paint. Miller is not a physical presence by any stretch of the imagination. If Brad Miller is a better center than Dampier it's because of his shooting and passing skills. Again, some teams need that more than they need a conventional, muscular center that can do the dirty work... but I don't think this team is one of them.

[DubOverdose]

Amare scored 40+ on TD and the champs...nothing wrong with having Amare go off on us.

[dalmations202]

If Brad Miller is a better center than Dampier it's because of his shooting and passing skills. Again, some teams need that more than they need a conventional, muscular center that can do the dirty work... but I don't think this team is one of them.

OK, I can't argue your logic too much, although I don't really agree with some of it.

I guess the fact is that -I think- the Mavs should be more of a beat them 120 -100 team than a beat them 90 -85 team. Miller, Gasol, Bosh, and Howard all give the Mavs a better chance to score 110 every night, than Damp does. Damp gives them better man to man post-up defense. I'd rather have the increased offensive production, than let the refs dictate the game with ticky tack fouls.

You are correct that Miller really doesn't have a superior post-up game, he is just an 18' in offensive minded center. He, if I remember correctly, is a little tougher than you give him credit, as Shaq even took a swing at him one time. By no means would I call him a defensive stalwart though. I do think he is as good an "off the ball" defender as Damp is though and plays passing lanes better.

Also, that is why I preferenced it with System D and not just a flat man to man D. If you go with a flat man up D, then Dampier is the better choice against most teams (I would exclude the Pistons), but with a System D with doubling everything in the paint, then I think the added offensive capability of one of the four I listed would more than offset the addition of a center that can guard Shaq.

IMO, the center position has changed. Before, everyone wanted the strong post defending big that could body up on Shaq and at least make his job a little harder. Now the league has gone to 4's playing the 5 offensively and utilizing speed, quickness, or the ability to shoot from 18 - freeing up the paint for the athletic players to get to the rim. If Dallas doesn't get another "Big" who can offensively play either down low, or out at 18' working in, then they are at a serious disadvantage against teams like the Pistons, SA, and Phoenix.

And that's enough of an upgrade to win us a title?

Yes, because I don't think they need that much. A little luck, some system D, and time will tell.

I am in no way saying that they can't win it all with Damp -- they can -- I just think they need a better offensive talent at the 5 (or 3) to help Dirk become the player that he can be. Either that, or Dirk better improve on his inside game.

[AxdemxO]

Bosh and Howard are untouchable
But here is my 5

1. Pierce
2. Okur
3. Kenny Thomas
4. Salim Stoudamire
5. Hakim Warrick

Pierce- no need to explain
Okur- good rebounder & can score
Thomas- good rebounder & can score
Stoudamire- I look at him like a Van Exel type of player. He can really lite it up and hes young
Warrick- Very good rebounder and can score. Young and athletic

[AxdemxO]

Bosh and Howard are untouchable
But here is my 5

1. Pierce
2. Okur
3. Kenny Thomas
4. Salim Stoudamire
5. Hakim Warrick

Pierce- no need to explain
Okur- good rebounder & can score
Thomas- good rebounder & can score
Stoudamire- I look at him like a Van Exel type of player. He can really lite it up and he's young
Warrick- Very good rebounder and can score. Young and athletic

[AxdemxO]

Bosh and Howard are untouchable
But here is my 5

1. Pierce
2. Okur
3. Kenny Thomas
4. Salim Stoudamire
5. Hakim Warrick

Pierce- no need to explain
Okur- good rebounder & can score
Thomas- good rebounder & can score
Stoudamire- I look at him like a Van Exel type of player. He can really lite it up and he's young
Warrick- Very good rebounder and can score. Young and athletic

[AxdemxO]

Howard and Bosh are untouchable.
But heer are my 5
1 Pierce
2 Okur
3 Kenny Thomas
4 Salim Stoudamire
5 Hakim Warrick

Pierce- no need to explain
Okur- good rebounder and scorer
Thomas- good rebounder / can score
Stoudamire- In my opinion can be tough like Van Exel used to be for us and can lite it up. (young)
Warrick- reall good rebounder and can score (young)

[Five-ofan]

I dont so much agree about any of the players other than Pierce but at least they are people that could be available. I do see the Stoudamire to Nick comparison though. Stoudamire is a better shooter but Nick was a better playmaker. Okur I dont really want for what his price would be. If he was free sure but not really any piece on this team I would trade for him. Kenny Thomas doesnt do a lot for me. Warrick doesnt have a position. He is a poor mans Donnel Harvey. Very athletic but has no skills whatsoever

[dalmations202]

Howard and Bosh are untouchable.

Probably very true, but if I were Donnie, I'd be calling and laying the groundwork, even if it were a longshot.

But heer are my 5
1 Pierce
2 Okur
3 Kenny Thomas
4 Salim Stoudamire
5 Hakim Warrick

Pierce- no need to explain
Okur- good rebounder and scorer
Thomas- good rebounder / can score
Stoudamire- In my opinion can be tough like Van Exel used to be for us and can lite it up. (young)
Warrick- reall good rebounder and can score (young)

I can understand Pierce, but do any of the other 4 upgrade any position to the point that it might "put us over the top"?

The other four might be available yes, but are they an upgrade?

[snoop]

here are my five in order of how easy it would be to get them.

1. Paul Peirce- Npt now but as the trade deadline comes KVH will look very good to Danny boy
2. Andre Miller- Denver needs a 2 and we have plenty. Gives us a one time assist leader.
3. Jason Kidd- One more bad start in NJ and Kidd will want out.
4 Ron Artest- If Indy faulters early on a fresh start for Ron would be magic for us.
5 Kevin Garnett- I know it seems far fetched but KG will not put up with a repeat of last year and we have the peices.

[Five-ofan]

wow. We have both extremes. One guy who wants scrubs that wouldnt be in the rotation and the other wants guys that would be almost impossible to get.

[dalmations202]

here are my five in order of how easy it would be to get them.

1. Paul Peirce- Npt now but as the trade deadline comes KVH will look very good to Danny boy
2. Andre Miller- Denver needs a 2 and we have plenty. Gives us a one time assist leader.
3. Jason Kidd- One more bad start in NJ and Kidd will want out.
4 Ron Artest- If Indy faulters early on a fresh start for Ron would be magic for us.
5 Kevin Garnett- I know it seems far fetched but KG will not put up with a repeat of last year and we have the peices.

Wow, good list. I'll guess I'll comment on the 5 because I am bored.
1) Pierce -- good choice, possible, who knows, maybe this happens
2) Miller -- not happening unless they give up totally on Harris, and Terry, IMO
3) Kidd -- too old for his contract -- he has shown he is on his way down. See Miller also.
4) Artest -- Wild Card. He might actually be the answer, but what are you going to do with Howard then? Move him to the SG, or include him in the trade. I am very curious as to whether his upside would outweigh his downside though.
5)Kevin Garnett -- now you finally get to a pick that I think would definately get us over the top. Problem is, I don't see Kevin here without Dirk being part of the trade. Dirk and Kevin would be awesome. One without the other, and you are still setting exactly where you are currently at. Would Minnesota take anything/everything talentwise Dallas has but Dirk, and still send Kevin to Dallas? -- I doubt it. I really think a frontline of Dirk, Garnett, Dampier would win the title though, no matter who the 1 and 2 were. The one and two would just have to be defensive guys -- You could win it all starting Earl Watson, and Doug Christie at the 1/2 with Dirk, KG, and Damp in the frontcourt.

Good list, but the real winner, IMO, would be if you could get Kevin Garnett -- I do not see that ever happening with him already in the division though.

[Arne]

Give me Ron Artest and the Mavs are gonna win it this year for sure. But it will never happen.

[snoop]

I think KG could end up being at least open for talks if the wolves faulter. Artest is in the same boat but the pacers are much less likely to implode.

[jayC]

Pierce would be great, but it depends on how good or bad the celtics are. If Pierce pulls a vince carter and sucks for 2 months it definitely is possible. I don't see what we have besides maybe howard that is better than what they already have. I think however if you gave them Howard plus van horn it gets it done.

Ron Artest is a great defender and according to the pacers a top 10 player in this league. According to himself he is an mvp candidate.

KG- if the best player on the planet doesn't give you a title. i don't know who does? He is a great passer and a great defender. He can guard the 1-5. It would take a lot considering his cap number is so high.

Gasol doesn't play defense. Although he would be a good post player, i don't see Jerry trading with us.

Stephon Marbury his efficiency rating is really high. He is an excellent scorer and avgd close to 8 assists last year.

[dalmations202]

good list JayC

[alby]

do you think Minnesota would do any trade with the Mavericks without getting Dirk for KG?

we do have a lot of pieces..

[dalmations202]

do you think Minnesota would do any trade with the Mavericks without getting Dirk for KG?

we do have a lot of pieces..

I doubt it, but if I am Dallas, Minnesota can make the deal, as long as Dirk isn't involved.

Dirk/KG would be a one/two frontcourt punch that would be unstoppable.

[alby]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

I doubt it, but if I am Dallas, Minnesota can make the deal, as long as Dirk isn't involved.

Dirk/KG would be a one/two frontcourt punch that would be unstoppable.

exactly..

KVH (expiring)
Stack (pretty cheap)
Terry (pretty cheap)
Howard (rising star)
Harris (potential star)
Diop/Mbenga (young, athletic bigs)
draft picks

I mean, we do have a few appealing assets...

sigh a Dirk/KG tandem would be absolutely amazing to watch.

[dalmations202]

I don't think Minn would do it because it would make their franchise irrelevant for 5 years.

[snoop]

Originally posted by: dalmations202
I don't think Minn would do it because it would make their franchise irrelevant for 5 years.

not really, lets say for the hell of argument that the trade is harris, KVH, J-ho and quis for K.G., Wally, and cap filler. Minn line up would be.

harris
quis
j-ho
KVH
candyman

give that team a year and a marquee free agent with their newly created cap space and you could have a very good team in 2 years

[dalmations202]

not really, lets say for the hell of argument that the trade is harris, KVH, J-ho and quis for K.G., Wally, and cap filler. Minn line up would be.

harris
quis
j-ho
KVH
candyman

give that team a year and a marquee free agent with their newly created cap space and you could have a very good team in 2 years

OK, then let's look at that lineup -vs- Dallas, SA, Phoenix new lineup.
harris - terry - parker -nash
quis - stackhouse -ginobli - bell
j-ho - Garnett - Bowen - Marion
KVH - Nowitzki - Duncan - Amare
candyman - Damp - Nazr - Thomas

Even in two-5 years, they are still no closer than 4th or 5th in the conference. Dallas would have the frontline to dominate the league, especially if Diop/Benga/PPod do develop even a little more. SA is SA, and Phoenix would be closer than Minn. I haven't even talked about Houston who, IMO, is one all-star guard away from being right there as well.

I just think Minn needs to rebuild around Garnett, or blow it up, and start all over. Personally, blowing it up, and starting all over would probably be the best idea for them, but they are going to have to get really bad for a year or two, in order to grow because the Joe Smith debacle is still haunting them.

[snoop]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

OK, then let's look at that lineup -vs- Dallas, SA, Phoenix new lineup.
harris - terry - parker -nash
quis - stackhouse -ginobli - bell
j-ho - Garnett - Bowen - Marion
KVH - Nowitzki - Duncan - Amare
candyman - Damp - Nazr - Thomas

Even in two-5 years, they are still no closer than 4th or 5th in the conference. Dallas would have the frontline to dominate the league, especially if Diop/Benga/PPod do develop even a little more. SA is SA, and Phoenix would be closer than Minn. I haven't even talked about Houston who, IMO, is one all-star guard away from being right there as well.

I just think Minn needs to rebuild around Garnett, or blow it up, and start all over. Personally, blowing it up, and starting all over would probably be the best idea for them, but they are going to have to get really bad for a year or two, in order to grow because the Joe Smith debacle is still haunting them.

i agree with you about blowing it up, thus this trade.
minn gets three young players
harris- who most people think will be at least very good
quis- the wild card but trades have been made on that before
j-ho- a future all star and top notch defender

that is how you rebuild a team, young, good prospects and the kicker-cap room. KVH will be resigned for far under the max and they lose wallys contract. this gives them money to max a player.

Peja Stojakovic, SF, Sacramento (Player option)
Ben Wallace, PF/C, Detroit
Nene, PF/C, Denver (Restricted)
Tayshaun Prince, SF, Detroit (Restricted)
Jason Terry, PG, Dallas
Mike Dunleavy, SF, Golden State (Restricted)
Al Harrington, PF, Atlanta
Joel Przybilla, C, Portland
Drew Gooden, PF, Cleveland (Restricted)
Chris Wilcox, PF, L.A. Clippers (Restricted)
Vladimir Radmanovic, SF/PF, Seattle
Keith Van Horn, SF/PF, Dallas
Bobby Jackson, PG/SG, Memphis
Matt Harpring, SG/SF, Utah
James Posey, SG/SF, Miami (Player option)
Bonzi Wells, SG/SF, Sacramento
Reggie Evans, PF, Seattle
Lorenzen Wright, PF/C, Memphis
Caron Butler, SF, Washington (Restricted)
Sam Cassell, PG, Minnesota
Nazr Mohammed, C, San Antonio
Tim Thomas, SF, Chicago
Speedy Claxton, PG, New Orleans
Jimmy Jackson, SG, Phoenix
Michael Olowokandi, C, Minnesota


wallace or peja could really help all this young talent form to be a real opwer in time

[alby]

Originally posted by: snoop

wallace or peja could really help all this young talent form to be a real opwer in time

um not really...

[jayC]

Bosh can't be untochable because he hasn't shown it yet. Wade and Lebron are untouchable because of their ability to make teammates better. Dwight Howard is a double-double guy but let's hold off on calling him a franchise player. Howard hasn't done it yet.

Same conference trades probably aren't going to happen. The Lakers would be in a much better position financially if they would have traded for Walker and Jamison as opposed to Odom, Grant and Butler.

The T-Wolves need to assess if they can win a title with KG. KG has played with top flight point guards Stephon Marbury, Sam Cassel, and Chauncy Billups. He has played with all-star two guards Wally World and Latrell Spreewell. How much better is Nazr Mohammed compared to Mike Olowakandi.