Offseason - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

David · 06-08-2002, 08:38 AM

<< According to me, Zo makes too much money to try and match salaries. I think he makes about $20 million next year. That would just about eat up NVE's and Fin's salaries.

That's what I thought at first.

I hardly fool around with realgm trade checker as I'm just not as good at creating trades. I typed in a Fin/NVE for Zo deal and it was accepted. Now as I understand things are not updated there yet, right? So, the salary increases are not in effect in other words?

I fooled around with a way to get Zo and Jones since enough posters seem intrigued with that here. Assuming we couldn't talk Raef, Najera or Buckner into a sign-and-trade, this is the only thing not using Dirk or Nash, I could come up with to get those 2 guys here.

We would have to trade NVE, Bradley, Esch, Manning, Griffin and Finley to get Zo and Jones.

I forgot to fool around with a way to get Grant here instead of Zo for example.

As I'm not as intuned with matching salaries with teams over the cap, etc...will salaries make a huge jump with any of these players that would significantly change an outlook? >>

As I said in my other post, I don't want Miami's lame, overpaid and infirmed. Zo's career could be done at any moment and I don't trade Finley and throw in NVE for that possibility. Jones and Grant have a history of injury and are over-rated. Jones was good with the Lakers, a long time ago, and Grant was good with Portland, a long time ago. That was then and this is now. I don't give up the 2nd and 5th best players on the Mavs for the Heat's hasbeens and use-to-bes. I don't care if RealGM does accept the trade. David doesn't(as if I have a say).

mick · 06-08-2002, 09:00 AM

<< <<For example, do we even know how good (or bad) Esch really is since he didn't play that much when available?>>

Well, judging on year-before-last when he was with the Nets, I'd say bad-- hard-to-watch bad. True, it was his rookie year, but c'mon.....can't you pretty much tell already that he's never going to be more than a backup/banger guy? He just doesn't have starter talent. Not even for the Nets. >>

I'll have to defer to your scouting report when he played for the Nets as I did not see him that much with the Nets if at all. I'm only going by what I saw this year with the Mavs. He averaged less than 9.6 minutes with 3.2 rebounds and 2 points. That projects to 15 RBs and 10 Pts. per 48 minutes. I realize that you can do anything you want with statistics, but the projections show he is worth a longer look. How many times have you heard people say "If we could only 15 Rbs and 10 Pts from the C position..."

mick · 06-08-2002, 09:35 AM

<< Camby as a 3? Camby as a starter? No way. Outside of putbacks, Camby may have less offense than Nájera. >>

Yeah, you're right. He's already 28, averages 29 minutes/game for his career with about 12 pts and 9 rbs. 47% FG shooter. We don't need anyone like that. And putbacks aren't that important. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

How about someone like Keon Clark who's only 27, with career averages of 23 min/gm, almost 9 pts. and 6 Rb's?

Drbio · 06-08-2002, 09:46 AM

I think Keon Clark could be the kind of player the Mavs need right now.

Murphy3 · 06-08-2002, 10:06 AM

<< For an inside player, I favor Kurt Thomas of the Knicks in a three-way to get rid of NVE >>

if the mavs can pull that off, then yes, i do that in a second.

however, i don't remember who it was that said that fin and jones were about the same guy on defense but, you're definitely wrong. Jones is a much better defender (as fin is better offensively)

I don't want to move fin and I don't think it'll come down to that. I hope the Mavs choose to address their needs this off season instead of staying pat.

Hoops, I realize you're looking for continuity but if you have continuity with some of the wrong pieces, it doesn't do alot of good.

Also, permiter defense is one of the best ways to improve the mavs interior defense. having a backup pg to limit nash's minutes might be the best way to improve the defense on the perimeter towards the end of the season ..at the same time, making the interior defense better.

however, the interior defense will still need some additional help.. whether it's a zo, or a grant, or a davis, or a thomas.. the interior defense needs some help as well

plus, i'd like to see the mavs look into bringing in a guy that can play 3 but also defend the 2 spot

mick · 06-08-2002, 11:04 AM

<< I think Keon Clark could be the kind of player the Mavs need right now. >>

My point is that Clark and Camby bring about the same thing to the Mavs. The question is can you get Clark for the mid-level exception? I don't think so. Sign & Trade? If NVE is the trade piece you need about 10.1 mil in salary coming back, and Keon certainly isn't worth that. That's why I keep coming back to the Knicks for now. They do have pieces that will work for us as well as salary mathces. We have some pieces that will work for them.

Another possibility is with Indiana. Croshere at $6.3 for 5 years. We trade AJ ($4.5, 2 years) and Manning ($1.65 at 1 year). Holding on to AJ and Manning won't help us with cap space over the next two years because we are already over without them. It would help Indiana with salary dump they need to re-sign their young players over the next two years, which is why they are trying to move Croshere now.

The best roles that AJ and Manning play for us is as trade pieces.

I still like the thought of adding a McInnis or Eddie House as backup PG with part of the mid-level exception.

Just some things to think about.

MavKikiNYC · 06-08-2002, 11:29 AM

<< Camby as a 3? Camby as a starter? No way. Outside of putbacks, Camby may have less offense than Nájera. >>

Yeah, you're right. He's already 28, averages 29 minutes/game for his career with about 12 pts and 9 rbs. 47% FG shooter. We don't need anyone like that. And putbacks aren't that important. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Camby MIGHT be a worthwhile gamble for a team who needs an ultra-lightweight frontcourt reserve player--the Mavericks need a little more. While you were summarizing his career stats, you must've noticed that he has never played in more than 63 regular-season games for his career (conceding the strike-shortened 99 season); and that over the last three years he's missed 95 games, including 59 last year, when he suffered a serious hip injury, the effects of which remain uncertain.

Regarding his ability to play the 3--he has shown some ability to defend some quicker 3s in the past situationally, but my sense is that he would not be nearly as effective trying to defend 3s on a regular basis, even before taking into account the effect of last year's injury on his mobility /quickness. He is extremely vulnerable to low post power players, so his utility at the 4 is also in question.

Offensively, Camby has NO outside shot, and NO low post moves...NO moves period. He is strictly a fastbreak lane filler and garbage putback artist... a more athletic version of Nájera. In my estimation, Mavs need a 3 who can hit 15-18 footer, and maybe with a little bit of 3 game. Camby isn't and never will be cut out for that.

Even the Knick fans who love Bambi (and many do not) have given up on his ever being around for an entire season. He's a luxury-type player, even for the Knicks. Nice piece for whatever team has him, but not to be depended on, and not enough to make the difference as a starter. Worth a look for the Mavs only if they can get him cheaply and keep him at a low contract.

How about someone like Keon Clark who's only 27, with career averages of 23 min/gm, almost 9 pts. and 6 Rb's?

Not too familiar with Clark's game, but given the little I know, he seems to be more durable. Between Bambi and Keon, the latter would seem to be a more reasonable pursuit, but doesn't really address the need at 3.

MavsFanFinley · 06-08-2002, 12:35 PM

As I said in my other post, I don't want Miami's lame, overpaid and infirmed. Zo's career could be done at any moment and I don't trade Finley and throw in NVE for that possibility. Jones and Grant have a history of injury and are over-rated. Jones was good with the Lakers, a long time ago, and Grant was good with Portland, a long time ago. That was then and this is now. I don't give up the 2nd and 5th best players on the Mavs for the Heat's hasbeens and use-to-bes.

David, you should know that I'm not real agreeable with any trade involving Finley.

I've stated over and over that Zo's health concerns me, not to mention that he can go elsewhere after this year. As for seeing if we could get Zo/Jones here was simply done to show how much we'd have to give up to get them here.

Someone also asked why Miami would trade Zo, knowing he'd be off the books next season, etc...I wondered the same thing, unless they know they can get a big man that will be around a couple years. Esch or Bradley do not fit the bill.

A NVE for Grant deal, I'm more agreeable with. However, I didn't realize his health was such a big concern. I posted the other day that he's recently had shoulder surgery, too.

And what the hell? I suggested Keon Clark long ago and was laughed at. Posters were saying that if we're getting anything from Toronto it damn well better be Antonio Davis.

mick · 06-08-2002, 12:50 PM

<< Camby MIGHT be a worthwhile gamble for a team who needs an ultra-lightweight frontcourt reserve player--the Mavericks need a little more. While you were summarizing his career stats, you must've noticed that he has never played in more than 63 regular-season games for his career (conceding the strike-shortened 99 season); and that over the last three years he's missed 95 games, including 59 last year, when he suffered a serious hip injury, the effects of which remain uncertain. >>

The reports coming out say he seems to be healthy, and he is starting to workout in Houston where many other players workout in the off season. Yes, I noticed the number of games he's actually played each year, and whether or not it is a correct assumption, believe a lot of his injuries are a result of playing the 5.

As far as his slashing to the basket instead of putting up outside jump shots, that's exactly what I would want as a compliment to the players we have now.

In our system, Dirk and Raef can be used to post in addition to taking the outside shots, but we need someone to take it to the basket besides Fin, who only does it occasionally. Whether or not Camby can guard a 3 consistently, only time will tell. He certainly can add to rebounds and blocks.

I am not saying this is the only move the Mavs should make, I am saying that it does make sense and is a possibility. Frankly, I am not sure the Knicks would do it unless they could also send back some salary in someone like Anderson, or Ward, or Eisley.

Hoopsmeister · 06-08-2002, 01:02 PM

<< As I said in my other post, I don't want Miami's lame, overpaid and infirmed. Zo's career could be done at any moment and I don't trade Finley and throw in NVE for that possibility. Jones and Grant have a history of injury and are over-rated. Jones was good with the Lakers, a long time ago, and Grant was good with Portland, a long time ago. That was then and this is now. I don't give up the 2nd and 5th best players on the Mavs for the Heat's hasbeens and use-to-bes. >>

Amen.

Hey here's an idea. Let's take a team that won 50+ games in the Western conference and was clearly one of the league's top 4 teams and trade half the first string for half the first string of a team that couldn't make the playoffs in the East.

Hoopsmeister · 06-08-2002, 01:14 PM

<< The reports coming out say he seems to be healthy, and he is starting to workout in Houston where many other players workout in the off season. Yes, I noticed the number of games he's actually played each year, and whether or not it is a correct assumption, believe a lot of his injuries are a result of playing the 5. >>

Given how long its been since the injury, one would certainly hope he is healthy now. However, just because he is healthy doesn't affect Mavskiki's point that there may still be unknown effects from his injury--Jim Jackson got healthy after he broke his ankle as a Mav. But he never got back to being the player he was before the injury.

And there is no way that the frequency of Camby's injury can be ascribed simply to playing the 5. Even given that he might be injured less at another position, we're still talking a guy its a stretch to believe will ever be available for more than 75% of a season.

MavKikiNYC · 06-08-2002, 01:53 PM

As far as his slashing to the basket instead of putting up outside jump shots,..

As far as that goes, he can't--can't handle the ball, has no moves and doesn't finish consistently, OTHER than with some admittedly spectacular putbacks.

Good to hear the positive reports out of Houston at least; but NYK followers were laughing a few weeks ago at reports that he'd committed to a couple of day's worth of workouts. They hooted that he needed a couple of months minimum.

Some fans here in NYC maintain (with reason, I think) that it's Bambi's STYLE of play that makes him vulnerable. Bambi is a good example of an 'energy player' (cf previous discussion), but his high-velocity, high-flying style of play has resulted in several different injuries over the past three seasons, and I've heard it commented that he doesn't seem to know how to control himself so as to avoid an awkward, off-balance landing. It also ties in to his inability to hit the outside shot--he ends up having to try to take the ball to the hoop, where he doesn't finish well. He launches himself, often out of control, injures himself and isn't heard from again for 3-5 games (or longer).

Don't mean to be beat a dead horse here--when he was healthy, Camby was entertaining to watch, unlike just about any other Knick. But his record of injury has been too consistent for anyone to consider him a major part of a roster.

PeterVecseyisdumb · 06-08-2002, 02:35 PM

<< As I said in my other post, I don't want Miami's lame, overpaid and infirmed. Zo's career could be done at any moment and I don't trade Finley and throw in NVE for that possibility. Jones and Grant have a history of injury and are over-rated. Jones was good with the Lakers, a long time ago, and Grant was good with Portland, a long time ago. That was then and this is now. I don't give up the 2nd and 5th best players on the Mavs for the Heat's hasbeens and use-to-bes.

David, you should know that I'm not real agreeable with any trade involving Finley.

I've stated over and over that Zo's health concerns me, not to mention that he can go elsewhere after this year. As for seeing if we could get Zo/Jones here was simply done to show how much we'd have to give up to get them here.

Someone also asked why Miami would trade Zo, knowing he'd be off the books next season, etc...I wondered the same thing, unless they know they can get a big man that will be around a couple years. Esch or Bradley do not fit the bill.

A NVE for Grant deal, I'm more agreeable with. However, I didn't realize his health was such a big concern. I posted the other day that he's recently had shoulder surgery, too.

And what the hell? I suggested Keon Clark long ago and was laughed at. Posters were saying that if we're getting anything from Toronto it damn well better be Antonio Davis. >>

Keon Clark is a solid player, right now. Keon Clark is athletic, can block shots, is a good rebounder, is a good defender, he has a soft shooting touch, etc. Keon Clark is still learning the game, and will probably be a better player in a couple years. If I am the mavs, and I could trade nick van exel for keon clark, then I would do it in a heartbeat. Keon Clark would improve the athleticism on this team. Keon Clark has long arms, and can jump out of the gym. Keon Clark is fast, so he fit into Don Nelson's style of offense, perfectly. I would rather have keon clark than antonio davis. I think keon clark has a bright future, in the nba.

I think keon clark can play the 4 and the 5. Keon clark is athletic, so I wonder if he could play the 3 position? He has a soft shooting touch, and is quick.

Keon Clark would be a solid addition to the mavs, if it ever happened.

MavsFanFinley · 06-08-2002, 10:05 PM

Looking at realgm, I don't see a way for us to get Keon Clark, certainly not using NVE.

Our best options at this time look to be to sign Askrabic, use our exception to get a Rose/Olowokandi(??) and see what we can get for NVE. Use our 55th pick on a big man that can sit and groom like Hoops suggested. If it doesn't happen, no biggie, but no damn guards.

I don't care to see a big blowup either this summer.

Hoopsmeister · 06-08-2002, 11:26 PM

I don't think there's a chance we can get Olowakandi. Sterling may be unwilling to pay what Olawakandi wants or even his market value, but all we could offer Olawakandi would be the big exception--and I don't think Sterling would have any problem matching that.

Drbio · 06-08-2002, 11:50 PM

Don't worry. The core of this team will not be changed. NVE is the first person on the depth chart that might go in a trade.

Murphy3 · 06-09-2002, 12:37 AM

The mavs must do something to address their interior defense issues. if they do not, we'll be here at this time next year discussing the same thing

Drbio · 06-09-2002, 09:15 AM

That is right on the money. If the Mavs do not adress better perimeter defense and get at least one guy that can bang inside a little.....it will likely be more of the same.

That said, I think TAW may be able to contribute. He was rewarded with that obscene contract because he was a defensive stud. IT's time to see him earn that money. After that, the Mavs should make runs at Kandi (longshot), Zo (dreaming because of that salary), or a Pollard-type player doesn't mind doing the under the basket dirty work but not take a lot of shots.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-09-2002, 10:45 PM

Have u guyz seen KandiMan play? Lol he shoots 43% from the field which either shows he is shooting out of his range or cant make baskets around rim. I guess he could help our interior defense but I would rather much go after Malik Rose or Matt Harpring before Kandi. ANd to be honest I think we would be much more effective with NVE than Kandiman. I think Keon Clark would be a better pick but the only problem I got with him is that he is a power foward and plays like a foward rather than a center.

Drbio · 06-09-2002, 10:47 PM

Kandi wouldn't need to shoot here. That is the beauty of it.

Bayliss · 06-09-2002, 10:48 PM

<< Have u guyz seen KandiMan play? Lol he shoots 43% from the field which either shows he is shooting out of his range or cant make baskets around rim. I guess he could help our interior defense but I would rather much go after Malik Rose or Matt Harpring before Kandi. ANd to be honest I think we would be much more effective with NVE than Kandiman. I think Keon Clark would be a better pick but the only problem I got with him is that he is a power foward and plays like a foward rather than a center. >>

Kandi shoots a bad percentage and he is an unknown (was it blossoming or contract year?) but I'd rather have him than Rose or Harpring. Kandi would actually guard the centers straight up. We haven't had that since when? Donaldson?

FilthyFinMavs · 06-10-2002, 01:34 AM

<<

<< Have u guyz seen KandiMan play? Lol he shoots 43% from the field which either shows he is shooting out of his range or cant make baskets around rim. I guess he could help our interior defense but I would rather much go after Malik Rose or Matt Harpring before Kandi. ANd to be honest I think we would be much more effective with NVE than Kandiman. I think Keon Clark would be a better pick but the only problem I got with him is that he is a power foward and plays like a foward rather than a center. >>

Kandi shoots a bad percentage and he is an unknown (was it blossoming or contract year?) but I'd rather have him than Rose or Harpring. Kandi would actually guard the centers straight up. We haven't had that since when? Donaldson? >>

Ive seen Lafrentz stick straight up wiht some centers. Dont get me wrong I want an improvement at center too but being that Kandiman wants the max in his contract I would just prefer getting Harping and or Rose before giving Kandiman the max or hell I would even take on Mournings contract before Kandiman. Lets face it there arent any dominate centers in the league but Shaq and well I guess Duncan is a center too so yea Duncan and Shaq. Yea we need help defending those guys but I just dont see Kandi being that help. I remember when he went against us the last 2 games we faced them and Kandiman got a couple hook shots in but didnt really bang inside. Sure ill take Kandiman but that exception looks more of Kandis value rather than the max.

Drbio · 06-10-2002, 07:51 AM

The Clips would match anyone who signs Kandi for the exception.

Dooby · 06-10-2002, 09:53 AM

Yeah, let us please end fruitless exercises and speculate solely on what might be actually possible.

Kandi only leaves Clipper-land if: 1) somebody overpays for him beyond what Clippers will pay; or 2) the Clippers so alienate Kandi during negotiations that he refuses to return.

Both are possible, but it will take more than the exception to get Kandi away from LAC under 1.

Drbio · 06-10-2002, 09:55 AM

I think Kandi will be dealt on a sign and trade. I don't think he wants to be there and I dont think the team wants to pay him.

Nellie · 06-10-2002, 10:08 AM

<< Well, wehen a guy beats his man off the dribble, the interior defenders have 3 choices:

a) challenge the defender and more than likely foul
b) let them go
c) rotate and fotrce the ball out of the opponent's hands

A puts our big men in foul trouble. B let's them have easy layups. C most likely ends up with a big man's dunk (ie Cato scoring while in Dallas).

The easy solution is not so much the 4 and 5's responsibility as it is the 1's,2's, and 3's responsinilty of **not** getting beat off the dribble. >>

Sorry but I don't buy that. To blame all of the blown lay-ups we gave up on poor perimeter defense only is naive at best. The Mavericks give up lay-ups because they have no second line of defense which is a true 5. LaFrentz is not a 5, he is a 4 playing a 5. For perimeter defense to get beat of the dribble in this league is not uncommon. The teams with good defense are teams that have a back-up plan when the perimeter gets beat of the dribble because it will happen and it will happen often because this is the NBA. If the defensive system is to rely solely on Nash, NVE, and Finley to play superb perimeter defense with no other line of defense than expect this type of second-round exit often. You can't honestly sit here and tell me that Dirk at 4 and Raef at 5 makes no difference defensively than Raef at 4 and a true 5 that can at least stay in the middle and hold their ground.

Murphy3 · 06-10-2002, 10:21 AM

I don't anyone really cares if you buy it or not
Sure the inside defense was bad ..
sure the inside defense had trouble with webber and divac

but to not put alot of blame on the perimeter defense for that sac series is ridiculous. the perimeter defense was horrendous. Yes, players get beat off the dribble in this league but the mavs players were beaten off the dribble repeatedly throughout the series.
When that happens as often as it did in the sac series, you give the inside defense no chance

it was a team defensive collapse... the perimeter defense was pathetic as was the inside defense for much of the series.

to say otherwise is ridiculous

Nellie · 06-10-2002, 11:02 AM

<< it was a team defensive collapse... the perimeter defense was pathetic as was the inside defense for much of the series. >>

I agree with this statement. What I don't agree with was what I responded too which was blaming the poor interior defense on the poor perimeter defense.

Dooby · 06-10-2002, 11:17 AM

<< I think Kandi will be dealt on a sign and trade. I don't think he wants to be there and I dont think the team wants to pay him. >>

I kinda disagree. While a sign & trade is possible, I think Kandi does want to stay. I think he likes playing with the young core of guys the Clippers have and will make an attempt to stay.

Granted, I fully expect the Clips to screw this up and let him get away. When that happens, you will quickly see the Clippers fall apart.

Drbio · 06-10-2002, 04:17 PM

I just don't think the Clips can pay him what he wants.