Dangerous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LAM0015 · 04-30-2001, 09:05 PM

finley's wishes could be the most deadly thing for the mavs...
a quote from the dallas morning news..
finley suggested that the mavs "haven't utilized Juwan as well as we should have."

damn, this isn't good news for the mavs...i guess we can expect more of the same type of play that we saw at times since juwan came to the mavs...
finley to juwan....
juwan to finley....
finley to juwan...
juwan to finley back to juwan, ...

the only way juwan can make a bigger contribution to the team is by rebounding at least somewhat consistently and learning HOW TO PLAY SOME FREAKING DEFENSE

FINLEY, HE'S UTILIZED TO HIS POTENTIAL....HE ALREADY GETS THE BALL TO DAMN MUCH..ESPECIALLY SINCE NEITHER JUWAN OR FINLEY FEEL IT'S NECESSARY TO GET ANYONE ELSE INVOLVED IN THE OFFENSE HALF OF THE DAMN TIME

djb · 04-30-2001, 09:14 PM

The only way anyone can say the Mavs haven't utilized Juwan as "well" as they should have is if they're talking about how the emergence of Juwan as the team's number two option has in many ways hurt the team and the success it enjoyed earlier in the season. I really think this whole Finley to Howard lovefest is becoming somewhat detrimental to Dirk's development (wasn't this supposed to be the year he really elevated his lowpost game?). Despite playing out on the wing more nowadays, Dirk still manages to grab more boards and shoot a higher percentage shot. I hope the team sits down and re-evaluates its game plan come summertime.

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 08:23 AM

although they don't go to dirk too much down in the low post...he's still shown a great ability to drive and take it to the hole this year.
he's actually gotten to the point to where he drives more than finley.
yes, they have to establish dirk on the low block....this will be the next step in his development.

finley's the teams best player at this point, but his strong relationship with juwan isn't helping the mavs that much right now.
Truthfully, i don't know if the mavs will ever be a dominant team with juwan at the 4 spot.
he's soft, very soft (even much softer than Dirk).
they can win with him at the 4 spot if they have a big time center..but, if they don't, then i don't think they will win with juwan logging 35-40 minutes at the 4 spot

TheKid · 05-01-2001, 09:20 AM

Personally I think that was simply just a comment to boost Juwan's confidence because he hasn't played well in any game if you ask me. I think he was trying to defend Juwan. Think about after game two the comments he said about Dirk. He said, "I'm not concerned about Dirk, he'll be fine coming home in front of the home crowd, he'll break out." Then what happened, Dirk went NUTS game three! So I think this is him really just trying to be the leader. Despite Nash's poor performance down the stretch in the first two games, he's still played pretty well from an offensive standpoint and he played exceptional in game three. I know the Dallas's wish list is for Mike, Dirk, Nash and Juwan to all have big games. Whether we like it or not, if that happens, we won't lose to ANYONE! Juwan however needs to play some damn defense and rebound. It's depressing watching him rebound.

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 09:24 AM

well, truthfully, i do not feel that he's just trying to boost juwan's confidence.
look at some of the game tapes and you will see some disturbing trends. juwan and finley seem to be looking out for each other trying to get each other their points. on a team, that is dangerous. it seems as though they have made a concerted effort to freeze others out of the offense for long stretches of time.
now, i don't know if it's the case. maybe juwan doesn't like to pass out of double teams. maybe finley thinks juwan is the best option 90% of the time.

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 10:04 AM

"The main thing he adds is somebody with some toughness in the paint," Finley said of Howard. "Not a lot of teams have a guy that can get Karl one-on-one.

that's from an article in the fort worth paper....
disgusting,
Juwan has been torched by the mailman...
Malone has great numbers when juwan is guarding him and poor numbers when bradley or bryant has been guarding him.
juwan can't guard karl malone...if it means sitting his ass on the bench, then his ass needs to be on the bench because someone needs to be in there that can guard karl malone. it sure the hell isn't juwan howard!!!!!!!!!
finley, i cannot believe that you would be so biased towards a friend. get a clue, you're playing in the freaking game, can you not see that malone torches howard?

TheKid · 05-01-2001, 10:29 AM

Lam, I think you're really taking his comments out of proportion also I really don't think Finley is always looking for Juwan. To be honest so far in the playoffs, he's been looking for Dirk alot too. Three of his assists last game came from Dirk.

What I think you and everyone else takes as Finley looking out for a friend is Finley trying to make a new face feel comfortable with the Mavs system. That's the job of the leadr of the team. Look at what Fin has done for the team all year. In the beginning of the year, he was taking back seat to Dirk and Nash so they could get their confidence going. He stepped in as needed and times when he felt he should. Team That's why he doesn't look for Juwan NEARLY as much as he did when Juwan first came here. I KNOW Finley realizes, Dirk is a MUCH better option on the offensive end than Howard. If you pay attention you'll see. Also so far in the playoffs, Juwan is the only player who hasn't had a major impact. Nash has, Dirk has and Fin has and Juwan has been solid but we expect more out of him than SOLID. Bradley has been solid.

As far as playing defense on Malone, to be honest if I'm Nelson I would rotate Bryant and Bradley on him only. The only reason I say Bradley is because Malone settle for Jumpshots when he plays Bradley and Bryant is the only player somewhat strong enough to bang with him. He ABUSES Booth and Howard. It's sickening, and very frustrating. On the switch Finley has had the unpleasant task of getting Malone and he plays better post defense against him than Howard and Booth.

MavsFanFinley · 05-01-2001, 11:36 AM

Here are the stats for the Mavs starters:

JHow 16.3 ppg 9.0 rpg 1.7 apg 0.7 spg
Dirk 22.7 ppg 8.7 rpg 1.0 apg 0.7 spg
Fin 22.0 ppg 5.3 rpg 3.3 apg 1.3 spg
Nash 18.7 ppg 3.3 rpg 6.7 apg 0.3 spg
Bradley 7.0 ppg 7.7 rpg 0.7 apg 0.3 spg

The stats look normal but the thing I neglected is the shooting % for each player. Here they are:

JHow 43.2% - no 3 pt attempts
Dirk 38.0% - 23.8% from 3 ball
Fin 36.7% - 36.8% from 3
Nash 46.2% - 28.6% from 3
Bradley 54.5% - no 3 pt attempts

Mavs as a team are shooting 28.3% from 3 pt land (17-60)

****Correct me if Im wrong, but Howard is rebounding (yes, by the slimmest of margins) better than Dirk and is shooting better than Dirk and Fin. I have no problem with Fin dishing to Howard more than Dirk with the way Nash is always feeding Dirk. No biggie. And it must be my eyes because wasn't Fin passing to Dirk a lot in game 3?****

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 11:53 AM

I'm not looking solely at the playoffs.
i'm talking about since juwan came to the mavs...

no, i'm not taking anything out of proportion. it is a problem and i'm not the only one that thinks so.

you people are amazing....
you take a three game stretch here or there and try and make an all emcompassing point that is valid for half a season..or a whole season....
it's so frustrating dealing with people that only look at the "very small picture"

yes, i know it's the playoffs..and i know they are very important.
i'm talking about the future of the mavs here based on what occurred over an extended period of time..(since juwan was traded to the mavs).
and you guys can only talk about a three game stretch? think outside of the box...
(thekid, this really isn't directed towards you)

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 11:57 AM

actually, i don't expect a "solid" performance out of howard.
he's actually been slightly better in the playoffs than i thought he'd be, but i'm sure he'll screw that up if he has the chance

i expect any offensive contributions that juwan makes to be MORE THAN offset by his defensive liabilities.
but, my problems with juwan extend alot further than just a three game stretch.
it's about his inability to consistently rebound. his inability to play any type of defense. his unwillingness to pass out of a double team. his inability to drive and dish.

the problem i have with finley is, his relationship with juwan in detrimental to the mavs because he gets the ball to juwan too much when juwan should only be the 3rd or probably the 4th scoring option on the team. a leader wouldn't sacrficice the teams needs in place of getting his friend more shots

TheKid · 05-01-2001, 12:14 PM

What I was trying to say was, his getting the ball to Juwan has reduced SIGNIFICANTLY over the more recent games. Towards the end of the season, whether you agree or not, Juwan was probably playing the best from an offensive standpoint besides Fin. Dirk wasn't exactly lighting it up, Nash wasn't, Eisley sure wasn't and Bradley is NEVER an option. Not to mention, Howard came from a team that was struggling, therefore his confidence was struggling. As Fin said prior to game three, he wasn't concerned about Dirk, he has never been concerned about Dirk, his shots are going to fall eventually. He had to show confidence in Juwan so Juwan could start believing he is suppose to be a part of this team. He would be more detrimental if he felt as if he was an outsider looking in!

Also the reason he doesn't pass out of a double team is because Juwan is very mechanical in his movements. In order to pass out of a double team you have to be fluid and have some sort of mobility. Juwan knows what move he's going to make before he even touches the ball. If he tries to deviate from that, he'll walk or turn the ball over. Just watch him, if he goes to a move and someone steps in his way or stops him, he's lost.

Jordan23TX · 05-01-2001, 12:25 PM

Clearly the hate-fest of Finley/Howard by the same person whose supportive of the Dirk/Nash love-fest. Its incredible how in the losses, Dirk/Nash played below normal but their friendship wasn't the problem.. It was dismissed as the refs, playoff jitters, etc etc ....Finley & Juwan struggle ..an Finley is quoted as saying we need to get Juwan involved,, then you have a LAME opinion about their friendship. Aside from Dirk having a good game in game 3,as well as NASH.....when the Jazz got into foul trouble that helped allow room for Nash to get into the paint. Although Finley didnt capitalize by going more to the rim,....I think that the Mavs need to get some baskets in the paint......or at least attempt some there to at least draw some fouls...... Look around people.......our low post scoring options are Howard,Bradley,Booth...occasionally Dirk. So with that being the case.....Howard is the best option ...He just needs to play like it. The notion that Howard has been a detriment since the trade is simply put ..."idiotic" .........We could have kept the old team & been the 6th,7th, or 8th seed... Getting swept by the Spurs,Sac or Lakers. Juwan was instrumental in beating SAC twice "after" the trade. As well as other victories. If u wanted to turn this thing completely around....Dirk/Nash are as much responsible for being down 2-1 as any other 2 people on the roster. Nash getting torched by Stockton the first 2 games & Dirk not there for the first 2 games. Btw, anyone notice Marshall had a killer game ..... wonder who guards him ...its #41 if u didnt know.....so when u want to target players to trash ...it can be done to any of the Mavericks...... if thats what you like doing.

ReggieThetaChi · 05-01-2001, 12:29 PM

Who gives a damn who passes the ball to who? As long as Dallas wins, Finley can pass the ball to Mark Cuban in the post. People, the bottom line is statistics don't matter. Yes, they are fun to discuss, and they do make basketball the interesting sport that it is, but the bottom line is, and LAM the players understand this, the only stat that matters is the "W".

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 12:35 PM

ok..so you're calling me lame and idiotic, great, i suppose i'll get blamed for starting it also.

If you would pay attention to what i've posted, I've said that i'm not talking specifically about the playoffs. Yet, you TWIST my words into that. I know dirk hasn't played up to what we need in the playoffs...
i'm talking about the future of the mavs...the future of the mavs isn't this year...the future is bright, but their's a very disturbing trend.

I've also said that howard may not be what the mavs need...he's not solid defensively inside, the mavs desperately need that. also, the mavs have made him into the #2 option entirely too many times.
the mavs need to develop dirk's inside game by getting him the ball on the low block. howard isn't much of an improvement over laettner, any way you look at it. what little more he brings to the team offensively is offset by his defensive lapses.

and no, this isn't a freaking finley hating session, this is stating what could turn into a very serious problem.

Howard doesn't need to be the mavs #2 option, he's not good enough offensively for that.
#3, at best. Yes, finley should still be the mavs #1 or #2 option, i'm not arguing about that. but i do think their friendship has led to him getting howard the ball more.

Pay attention to what others say...of course the mavs can't say anything negative about finley right now.....they're tyring to re-sign him so they aren't going to say anything other than what they need to say to keep him in dallas. he's done a tremendous job, but i think he's partially at fault here. that's it, ..but the finley/howard catch sessions like we saw during the regular season does not need to carry over into next year...

As you can see, in spite of his personal insults, i did not direct any Jordan23TX

and jordan, dj even agrees with me on this point...., so don't go saying that this is a finley hate fest by me. i'm not the only person that has said this

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 12:38 PM

reggie, the only stat that matters isn't the "W".
the mavs have to continue to develop certain aspects of players games.
as much as we'd love for it to happen, the mavs aren't going to win a championship this year.

yes, the "W" is very important but so is the development of players games.. so is keep the proper chemistry.
i hope their isn't a problem between the mavs...right now, i don't think their is, but the seeds have been planted for a possible problem in the year to come.
juwan has to accept his roles as the 3rd or 4th option. this is the key.
if he doesn't, then it will be a problem, but juwan has to accept his role.

Jordan23TX · 05-01-2001, 12:43 PM

I dont care who agree with what.... it doesnt justify things because your opinion is agreed upon by others. If you dont think that Nash attempts to get Dirk the ball moreso then any other Mav your fooling yourself. Its not lack of ability, its a comfort thing. The same way Finley & Howard who've played together since high school. Its comfort.....But irregardless of all that I think there are some other overtones in your posts .......So I will leave this board,.... Mavs will win in 5.......U guys all take care........ Peace

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 12:50 PM

man, i said nothing derogatory towards you. Nothing. Yet, you bad mouth me and throw a fit and threaten to leave...blaming it on me. what is that about? if anyone should have been upset it should have been me, since you called my point "idiotic".
there was nothing derogatory in my post directed at you.

NOTHING

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 12:52 PM

i know it doesn't validate my opinion because dj agrees with it.
but having him agree with it helps point that there apparently other people are noticing something similar to what i'm seeing.
that's it

i'm sorry if i offended you, but i did not say anything negative towards you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I would, however, like an apology from you

djb · 05-01-2001, 12:53 PM

I never thought much of the whole Finley/Howard deal until it was brought up a few weeks ago. Since then, I've noticed the Finley-to-Howard trend becoming increasingly evident during games. Since the team has continued to steamroll their way to the postseason, I didn't think it was such a big deal. I agree somewhat that a W is a W. But I'm just a little worried (for lack of a better word) that Dirk will revert back to primarily being a perimeter player. The complaint many of us had last year was his lack of a low-post game. Finley dishing it out to Howard down low 2/3 of the time isn't exactly furthering his development. I wouldn't mind this if Howard were actually making the majority of his shots or driving to the hole more, but he's not. Well sometimes he is, but other times he just keeps heaving away even if he's stone cold or being double-teamed. This isn't so much a knock on Finley or Howard as it is on the coaching.

djb · 05-01-2001, 12:54 PM

Jordan I hope you're not serious about leaving the board simply because of one person.

LAM0015 · 05-01-2001, 12:58 PM

dj, what did i say that was derogatory towards him?
Nothing
we simply have opposing views and we were arguing our points. I didn't get personal. I didn't call his points of view idiotic or lame or anything else like that.

djb · 05-01-2001, 01:09 PM

I think it's gotten to the point where others automatically detect sarcasm or insults in your posts even if it wasn't your intention to do so. You offer some valid arguments most of the time but the sarcasm/insults usually detract from the msg itself. Most of us can see that you're making an effort to cut the bullshit and just focus on the Mavs now, but stuff like "As you can see, in spite of his personal insults, i did not direct any Jordan23TX." and "ok..so you're calling me lame and idiotic, great, i suppose i'll get blamed for starting it also." can easily make a person think the old LAM is trying start some shit up again. If possible, just cut out extra stuff like that and simply reply to the original post.

ReggieThetaChi · 05-01-2001, 01:35 PM

Good call, DJ.

LonestarROB · 05-01-2001, 01:59 PM

Yes, round of applause DJ [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] .

Jordan, don't leave. And check your PM's [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] .

TheKid · 05-01-2001, 02:17 PM

LAM I'm in agreement with you on one hand about Howard, however you're making this Finley/Howard thing more than it is. Also they've only played in summer leagues togehter, that doesn't mean they've played together all their lives. They've played AGAINST one another since high school. That doesn't mean they are the best of friends either. If you notice the reason it seems as if Nash distributes to Dirk more is because that's the pick and role play they have. If you look at the sets they run, Finley gets the ball to Juwan when he's running the point, which they do quite often in the game. If Juwan is in the post and everyone else is on the perimeter and they want to play an inside and out game, who else would he throw it to?

Mavinator · 05-01-2001, 05:43 PM

Before the Juwan Howard trade, Dirk averaged 15.35 field goal attempts per game. Since the Juwan Howard trade, he has averaged 17.43, plus he has gotten the opportunity to work against smaller forwards that he can actually post up effectively...

The Crippler · 05-01-2001, 06:49 PM

Some of you guys are kind of, how can I put this without someone threatening to "leave the board", little bitches. Why are you going to quit posting if you don't agree with someone? That's pretty weak man.

djb · 05-01-2001, 07:33 PM

Haven't seen you in a while Crippler, where ya been hiding? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

turbo.mav · 05-01-2001, 07:58 PM

in The Crippler Layer

MavsFanFinley · 05-01-2001, 08:08 PM

Well, if Nelson would decide where he's going to play Dirk for the rest of his career, this Howard is holding Dirk back theory is bullshit. Nelson has said that he plans to use Dirk as a center, I guess he'll have to learn his low post game there, until then, Howard is our best option as a low post threat and we'll all just have to learn to like it.

Jordan, don't leave because of LAMCHOP. There's plenty others here that appreciate your posts/opinions no matter how many times LAMCHOP has told us that we don't have opinions.

Yeah DJ your right. LAMCHOPS posts are dripping with sarcasm, his asshole-turned-good boy isn't sold on me. He's insulted me (and others) one too many times to change my mind that he's still an asshole. But, that isn't going to stop me from posting here.

LAM0015 · 05-02-2001, 12:20 AM

You know, it's amazing that you people can dish out insults but can't even take sarcasm. it's truly amazing. i'm tired of hearing all of the whining and bitching about someone that has an opposing view. i've stopped the personal insults, so i'm not going to resort to them here...but grow up. can you people not deal with an opposing view?

I'm out, i don't want to deal with people like jordan23tx. using me as a scapegoat for his insecurities. besides, there's only a few people with any type of hot sports opinions on this board anyways..
the crippler
djbackslash
rob
thekid
that's pretty much it.
well, sigmatheta as well..maybe a couple others...

well, take care, mavsfinleyfan, i wish you the best of luck

scooterj5 · 05-02-2001, 02:17 AM

So my Mavs opinions are stupid?

I said how Howard should stop just backing down the defence and taking turnarounds because it was a low percentage shot. You replied "good review of juwan howard"

And please don't say you aren't starting anything.

Murphy3 · 05-02-2001, 08:28 AM

hey, what's up?
just found this website, i can see you're also discussing the mavs using juwan too much.
well, glad i could find this site,
the way it sounds, their's definitely alot of hot opinions, i'm looking forward to that.

yes, everyone that says howard is the focus in the offense too much at times is right. he should be their fourth option. almost never their first. When the mavs concentrate on getting him the ball, the offense usually stagnates and takes the mavs out of what they do best

TheKid · 05-02-2001, 09:16 AM

LAM cut it out, you're not going anywhere and you would be silly if you did! Trust me, you piss me off a lot but that's the beauty of sports as someone else said earlier. Everyone can have an opinion but no one is necessarily wrong or right.

Lastnight was a case in point, Juwan was probably the fourth option and with Dirk being hot, the kept feeding him. (LAM THIS IS FOR YOU, FIN KEPT FEEDING HIM [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img])They rode him, then Nash hit HUGE shots then Fin closed the door! I will say this, lastnight was the best the Mavs played Malone. They made him shoot more jumpshots instead of him getting all those layups. The thing is NO ONE is going to stop Malone, but you can make his ass work and that's what they did. He still had a good game, but he wasn't controlling the game and that's the difference.

scooterj5 · 05-02-2001, 04:13 PM

Murph your style is a lot like lam's hmmmmmm

Murphy3 · 05-02-2001, 06:58 PM

actually, i believe lam0015 wasn't a huge finley fan
i like finley, great player

MFFL · 05-02-2001, 10:59 PM

Finley ROCKS! I just hope he can mentally handle the adjustment to when the Mavs become Dirk's team.

Finley is an All-Star, one of the best guards in the game right now.

Dirk is a potential superstar, with the ability to become one of the best PLAYERS in the game.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 08:28 AM

i do believe that dirk is a future superstar and nash is a future all-star.
yeah, finley's great, but this is probably dirk's team in the not to distant future

the mavs just have to say the right things to assure that finley stays with the mavs.

LonestarROB · 05-03-2001, 08:35 AM

"the mavs just have to say the right things to assure that finley stays with the mavs"

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] .

MFFL · 05-03-2001, 08:46 AM

I think it's cool that Cuban wants Finley to opt out of his contract and play the free agent field. I can't imagine anyone stealing Findog from us, unless someone does like Orlando did last year. You know, go for the double free agent move. If someone signs Webber and still has cap room, they would have a legimate shot at Finley.