The Official Mavs at Grizz 2/22/08 Gameday thread. - Page 14 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 02-23-2008, 01:14 AM

Defense. Rebounding. Playmaking.

mavsfan1000 · 02-23-2008, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He's not the twice the defensive player anymore. In fact, he looks like a lazy defender these days.

There's nothing *wrong* with Antawn Jamison. But that's not the player that Josh Howard should aspire to. He should aspire to Scottie Pippen.

Howard is clearly a better defender than that softie Jamison. Though he needs to work on taking better shots. I don't see any similarities in their game.

chumdawg · 02-23-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Howard is clearly a better defender than that softie Jamison. Though he needs to work on taking better shots. I don't see any similarities in their game.

Howard hasn't worked his ass off on defense in a year-and-a-half. It is a very distressing sign to see a young player regress so remarkably in this phase of the game.

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He's not the twice the defensive player anymore. In fact, he looks like a lazy defender these days.

There's nothing *wrong* with Antawn Jamison. But that's not the player that Josh Howard should aspire to. He should aspire to Scottie Pippen.

Honestly, I haven't really been paying attention to the Mavs the way I usually do so I can't swear that you're wrong. The Kidd trade has re energized me much the way it has Dirk and I'm studying every play again. Give me a couple of weeks on that.

I will say that his defensive +/- looks pretty good. I know that can be influenced by a number of factors but it is something to look at. I also think that some fans underestimate how small he makes the court when he's flying around out there. he's long and quick enough to dig down and still contest at the 3-point line.

And yea, Pippen would be nice but I don't think Josh will ever be that type of passer. On a somewhat related note, do you think Pippen would have been the same player if he didn't grow up with Jordan in his ear?

chumdawg · 02-23-2008, 01:29 AM

To hear Pippen tell it, Jordan wouldn't have been the player he is if Pippen hadn't been in his ear...so...I don't know.

I don't care what Howard's plus-minus numbers are, he needs to play more of a team game. The game absolutely stops when he gets the ball. Usually he fires up a shot, no matter where he is. On the rare occasions when he passes, it is not purposeful.

He's still a "junk" player, from everything that I can see. You can't run plays for him, because that's a dead end. He gets his stuff off of broken plays and set shots and putbacks...exactly like Jamison does.

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 01:40 AM

I don't know that I would agree with that assessment of his offensive game but again, Antawn Jamison with defense isn't bad. I'll take a player who can give me 20 and a good fg% without any player being run for him any day of the week.

I agree that he needs to pass more and I'm confident he will. Give Avery time to keep working on him.

Of course Kidd's presence may speed it up. He dropped two dimes to Damp tonight. On was converted the other wasn't but he had his head up and that's the important thing.

bernardos70 · 02-23-2008, 02:28 AM

Gotta agree with chum here. Howard doesn't go strong to the rim like he used to. He has completely fallen in love with his jumper. He still gets quite a few shots in the paint though, I guess I'd just like if he had even more, and throw in one or two rim-rocking dunks while you're at it. And for God's sake, work on your passing. Talk about tunnel vision.

sike · 02-23-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Dirk "limits" himself in that he's wired not to take bad shots. Stack has no conscious...never has. Josh is getting to that point which isn't terrible because he's a talented scorer but he needs to mix in some points in the paint.

I hold AJ responsible for not being determined to get his superstar an ample amount of shots.

AJ should see to it that Dirk takes between 17-25 shots a night...I would see utilizing one of the most effective offensive options in the league as one of the most obvious things for a coach that wants to win. Dirk will not be a guy who consistently takes terrible shots, but I would like to see him take more shots overall.

sike · 02-23-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Dirk "limits" himself in that he's wired not to take bad shots. Stack has no conscious...never has. Josh is getting to that point which isn't terrible because he's a talented scorer but he needs to mix in some points in the paint.

or maybe better said, he doesn't limit Stack and JHo while failing to optimize on Dirk's offensive talent.

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I hold AJ responsible for not being determined to get his superstar an ample amount of shots.

AJ should see to it that Dirk takes between 17-25 shots a night...I would see utilizing one of the most effective offensive options in the league as one of the most obvious things for a coach that wants to win. Dirk will not be a guy who consistently takes terrible shots, but I would like to see him take more shots overall.

25 is an awful lot of shots. Dirk is only taking .5 fewer shots than he did last year despite the fact that he's drawing more double teams and racking up more assists.

I've heard Avery say numerous times that we're a better team when Stack is getting assists and he talked in the pre-season about Josh becoming a more complete player. I'm sure that message is being delivered in the locker room. Like I said, these things take time. Sometimes they never happen.

LonghornDub · 02-23-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To hear Pippen tell it, Jordan wouldn't have been the player he is if Pippen hadn't been in his ear...so...I don't know.

I don't care what Howard's plus-minus numbers are, he needs to play more of a team game. The game absolutely stops when he gets the ball. Usually he fires up a shot, no matter where he is. On the rare occasions when he passes, it is not purposeful.

He's still a "junk" player, from everything that I can see. You can't run plays for him, because that's a dead end. He gets his stuff off of broken plays and set shots and putbacks...exactly like Jamison does.

With the addition of Kidd, Howard's unwillingness to a) drive or b) pass is the most frustrating thing about this team right now.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I've heard Avery say numerous times that we're a better team when Stack is getting assists and he talked in the pre-season about Josh becoming a more complete player. I'm sure that message is being delivered in the locker room. Like I said, these things take time. Sometimes they never happen.

you, sir, are a far more patient man than I.

I align myself with a small minority of people who were not satisfied with how many shots Dirk was getting EVEN in his MVP season...so the half a shot less he is taking this season is no little thing when I'd like to see him shoot more often. And really what I would like to see is a serious effort from AJ to consistently get Dirk the ball in good positions to score...I predict Kidd will do naturally what AJ never could do or didn't have the inclination to create.

reign in those who need to be and let lose those who need to be...the proof in is the pudding...I don't care what you say behind closed doors.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

With the addition of Kidd, Howard's unwillingness to a) drive or b) pass is the most frustrating thing about this team right now.

I willing to let JHo get healthy and become accustomed to Kidd before I allow myself to become too frustrated with Howard.

But he MUST get back to being a guy who can get most of his points by attacking and flying all over the court. Jump shooting Josh is a very bad thing for this team.

LonghornDub · 02-23-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I willing to let JHo get healthy and become accustomed to Kidd before I allow myself to become too frustrated with Howard.

But he MUST get back to being a guy who can get most of his points by attacking and flying all over the court. Jump shooting Josh is a very bad thing for this team.

I'm willing to give him time, but his game has been like this for 2 seasons. My hope is that he'll step it up in the playoffs--he did play with a lot more energy against GS last year than he had for most of the year.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I'm willing to give him time, but his game has been like this for 2 seasons. My hope is that he'll step it up in the playoffs--he did play with a lot more energy against GS last year than he had for most of the year.

The first half of last season he was pretty stout, Dubby.

LonghornDub · 02-23-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

The first half of last season he was pretty stout, Dubby.

His numbers were good, but I didn't like his game one bit. I remember (as I'm sure you do) how the guy used to play, and even though he was a "worse" player, I liked it a whole lot better.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

His numbers were good, but I didn't like his game one bit. I remember (as I'm sure you do) how the guy used to play, and even though he was a "worse" player, I liked it a whole lot better.

I like that he can make the 18 footer now...I just don't like him relying on it to get his points. I, with you, agree that he is at his best when he never stops moving, fighting, attacking.

LonghornDub · 02-23-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I like that he can make the 18 footer now...I just don't like him relying on it to get his points. I, with you, agree that he is at his best when he never stops moving, fighting, attacking.

Especially considering that Josh is one of the remaining few on our team with incredible athleticism. One of the reasons the Mavs look so "old" sometimes is that our super-athletic forward would rather jack 18 footers.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Especially considering that Josh is one of the remaining few on our team with incredible athleticism. One of the reasons the Mavs look so "old" sometimes is that our super-athletic forward would rather jack 18 footers.

AJ should give him a tape of Bronbron, and (healthy) Wade...and say..."be like this, dummy!"...ok, he doesn't have to call him a dummy.

monty55555 · 02-23-2008, 03:56 PM

When Josh starts doing that (NOT DRIVING), he reminds me of how it was in NJ when Kidd was still there. Here is Vince Carter, one of the most athletic in the league, probably one of the best dunkers in the league... and yet, he settles for a 3 point shot on the fast break. Or he starts taking 10 jumpers without a single drive to the basket.

It was so frustrating.

So I commiserate with those who are disappointed by his showing last night.

Hopefully he gets 100% healthy and that he realizes that he should start driving and taking better/more intelligent shots Its alright to take jumpers as one can't drive to the basket every single time. BUT at least take good percentage shots or shots from good set up plays. Not ISO plays and off-balanced shots.

sike · 02-23-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monty55555

When Josh starts doing that (NOT DRIVING), he reminds me of how it was in NJ when Kidd was still there. Here is Vince Carter, one of the most athletic in the league, probably one of the best dunkers in the league... and yet, he settles for a 3 point shot on the fast break. Or he starts taking 10 jumpers without a single drive to the basket.

It was so frustrating.

So I commiserate with those who are disappointed by his showing last night.

Hopefully he gets 100% healthy and that he realizes that he should start driving and taking better/more intelligent shots Its alright to take jumpers as one can't drive to the basket every single time. BUT at least take good percentage shots or shots from good set up plays. Not ISO plays and off-balanced shots.

my hope is that Kidd can succeed with JHo where maybe he was too late with Vince.

Caseman · 02-23-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monty55555

When Josh starts doing that (NOT DRIVING), he reminds me of how it was in NJ when Kidd was still there. Here is Vince Carter, one of the most athletic in the league, probably one of the best dunkers in the league... and yet, he settles for a 3 point shot on the fast break. Or he starts taking 10 jumpers without a single drive to the basket.

It was so frustrating.

So I commiserate with those who are disappointed by his showing last night.

Hopefully he gets 100% healthy and that he realizes that he should start driving and taking better/more intelligent shots Its alright to take jumpers as one can't drive to the basket every single time. BUT at least take good percentage shots or shots from good set up plays. Not ISO plays and off-balanced shots.

Hopefully, he will be near 100% before we face the Spurs. We can't afford 7/21 or whatever his percentage was.

sike · 02-23-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseman

Hopefully, he will be near 100% before we face the Spurs. We can't afford 7/21 or whatever his percentage was.

I think it was 7-27...but that is off the top of my head..

just checked, it was 9-27

monty55555 · 02-23-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

my hope is that Kidd can succeed with JHo where maybe he was too late with Vince.

I hope so too. There would be rare occasions when Vince would run the break and take it to the basket. Or follow set plays and drive hard. But generally, he was just settling. It frustrated NJ fans (fans prior to the arrival of Vince) because they were so used to seeing NJ run hard to the basket or Kidd setting up his players for easy baskets. Vince doing the ISO thing and settling was not utilizing Kidd's talent well.

RJ was the one who ran hard every single time Kidd had the ball or the rebound. He knew that he would get the ball... and 95% of the time, he was right. He got the ball where all he needed to do was dunk it or dribble once and lay it in. He was rewarded well for his hard work. RJ has a decent jumpshot but doesn't rely on it. He knows that his advantage is his athletic ability and he used it to his advantage playing with someone like Kidd.

I am hoping that Josh will have that mindset as well.

monty55555 · 02-23-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseman

Hopefully, he will be near 100% before we face the Spurs. We can't afford 7/21 or whatever his percentage was.

I hope so too. Last night was unacceptable. Specially if you have Dirk or Terry on the court with you.

sike · 02-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monty55555

RJ has a decent jumpshot but doesn't rely on it. He knows that his advantage is his athletic ability and he used it to his advantage playing with someone like Kidd.

I am hoping that Josh will have that mindset as well.

I hoping right there with ya, monty.....

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

you, sir, are a far more patient man than I.

I align myself with a small minority of people who were not satisfied with how many shots Dirk was getting EVEN in his MVP season...so the half a shot less he is taking this season is no little thing when I'd like to see him shoot more often. And really what I would like to see is a serious effort from AJ to consistently get Dirk the ball in good positions to score...I predict Kidd will do naturally what AJ never could do or didn't have the inclination to create.

reign in those who need to be and let lose those who need to be...the proof in is the pudding...I don't care what you say behind closed doors.

The difference between Dirk and his 17 shot and Lebron and his 22 isn't Avery Johnson and Mike Brown. It's the fact that players like Lebron, Kobe and Gil Arenas can create for themselves on the perimeter and nobody can touch them. They also get a couple of steals per game for easy dunks and they're willing to take shots that Dirk won't. Dirk and David West lead the league in shots by 4's and 5's despite the fact that fact that we have fewer possessions per game that most teams.

Why can't Pop get Tim Duncan more shots? Why can't Jerry Sloan get Carlos Boozer more shots? Is it because those coaches don't know offense or can't coach a superstar?

Kid may get get Dirk more easy shots but the reason won't have anything to do with Avery. It'll be because he pushes the pace and he's able to make passes that Devin and Terry can't.

sike · 02-23-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Why can't Pop get Tim Duncan more shots? Why can't Jerry Sloan get Carlos Boozer more shots? Is it because those coaches don't know offense or can't coach a superstar?

I'm sure you would agree with me that Duncan and Boozer are not in the same mold as Dirk...neither "need" shots the same way Dirk does to be at top effectiveness...but Dirk is most dominant when he is getting shots (and making shots). Most nights he will not be the defensive presence that Timmy is or the low post threat and dominating rebounder that Boozer is...for Dirk to utilize his God given abilities and be most effective for the Mavs...the ball needs to be leaving his hand as he reaches into that cookie jar!

Quote:

Kid may get get Dirk more easy shots but the reason won't have anything to do with Avery. It'll be because he pushes the pace and he's able to make passes that Devin and Terry can't.

bingo...I mentioned this exact point elsewhere....Kidd might be able to as a natural outflow of his game what AJ could never draw up or will to be.

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I'm sure you would agree with me that Duncan and Boozer are not in the same mold as Dirk...neither "need" shots the same way Dirk does to be at top effectiveness...but Dirk is most dominant when he is getting shots (and making shots). Most nights he will not be the defensive presence that Timmy is or the low post threat and dominating rebounder that Boozer is...for Dirk to utilize his God given abilities and be most effective for the Mavs...the ball needs to be leaving his hand as he reaches into that cookie jar!

Yes, Duncan and Boozer can affect a game in different ways but the fact remains, it it was that easy to get them 5 or 6 extra good looks a game their coaches would be doing it. Especially since they both shoot over 50%.

My point is, Dirk could easily take 6 or 7 extra shots a game but they probably wouldn't be easy shots, no matter who the coach is. Kobe and Lebron take at least 5 or 6 shots a night with extremely high difficulty. The offense isn't creating looks for them, they're creating for themselves. And Dirk has obstacles that those players don't. First you have to get him the ball because he can't bring it up the floor like a guard could. You can't create separation by running him off of curl screens the way Sacramento did with Kevin Martin because of his size. I mean he's mobile for a seven footer but he's not going to outrun a small forward. So he's going to get the ball in a stationary position with a defender within arms reach. Then, if he gets hot they're going to start running extra defenders at him.

Dirk has never been a volume shooter. It's not his personality go force up shots night after night. I see no reason to change that. You're better off trying to build up his supporting cast.

bingo...I mentioned this exact point elsewhere....Kidd might be able to as a natural outflow of his game what AJ could never draw up or will to be.[/QUOTE]

Five-ofan · 02-23-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don't know that I would agree with that assessment of his offensive game but again, Antawn Jamison with defense isn't bad. I'll take a player who can give me 20 and a good fg% without any player being run for him any day of the week.

I agree that he needs to pass more and I'm confident he will. Give Avery time to keep working on him.

Of course Kidd's presence may speed it up. He dropped two dimes to Damp tonight. On was converted the other wasn't but he had his head up and that's the important thing.

the thing is, josh does have plays run for him.(and he should, hes our second best scorer) but the whole he doesnt have plays run for him stuff is just bs for the media. kinda like the notion that hes a great all around player.

dirno2000 · 02-23-2008, 10:49 PM

I know they do, I was just going along with Chum since that make it sound even better.