Official Dirk is Great Thread

[sike]

Originally Posted by WraithXx

the last 3 MVP's have been white and foreign born

our previous #1 non-white seemingly anti-Dirk voice, Charles Barkley, has long since changed his stance on the MVP Dirk and pretty much admitted that his on-tv persona is just that.. an on-tv persona

got anything else?

Nash is just like an American and is a tough gritty Stockton type who people always love...

so your point is that there is not a anti-Dirk bias because he won the MVP when he led a team to 67 win season?

let me make this my question to you, X: you are saying there isn't an overwhelming under-appreciation (almost dislike) of Dirk from the national media?

edited to clarify the question.

[WraithXx]

Originally Posted by sike

Nash is just like an American and is a tough gritty Stockton type who people always love...

so your point is that there is not a anti-Dirk bias because he won the MVP when he led a team to 67 win season?

let me make this my question to you, X: you are saying there isn't an overwhelming under-appreciation (almost dislike) of Dirk around the league?

I agree that there is an anti-Dirk bias but not nearly anywhere like it was before.. I myself have seen it, but I don't think it's based on race - that's all I'm saying

I remember the two biggest criticisms on him were that he didn't play defense and that he was soft. Both were probably true. We've seen him grow in both of those areas for 2 or 3 years now

I'll defend Dirk against anyone that has anything bad to say about him on any other front though. But race, to me, shouldn't play a part in it.

[sike]

Originally Posted by WraithXx

But race, to me, shouldn't play a part in it.

I agree...but the problem is all these humans.

"soft" and "no defense" are almost catch phrases for "white" in the NBA...just like saying, "Oh he is a find set shooter". I'm not trying to sound like this is something I've spent a ton of time thinking about...but it is only human nature to dislike someone who is better at your game than you are...especially someone who is different than you. It may have more to do with his heritage than his skin color...or maybe its because he is a Maverick....I'll admit that...but there is a reason for the bias against him...and I doubt it has anything to do with how weak his defense used to be. I don't see Mello, Nash, Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Antwan Jamison, or Paul Pierce get smashed for their lack of D and they are all stars too.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree...but the problem is all these humans.

"soft" and "no defense" are almost catch phrases for "white" in the NBA...just like saying, "Oh he is a find set shooter". I'm not trying to sound like this is something I've spent a ton of time thinking about...but it is only human nature to dislike someone who is better at your game than you are...especially someone who is different than you. It may have more to do with his heritage than his skin color...or maybe its because he is a Maverick....I'll admit that...but there is a reason for the bias against him...and I doubt it has anything to do with how weak his defense used to be. I don't see Mello, Nash, Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Antwan Jamison, or Paul Pierce get smashed for their lack of D and they are all stars too.

Who do you think has a bias against Dirk? It's not the players. Most everything I hear from the players with regards to Dirk is complimentary.

Over the past three years the media has voted him first team All-NBA twice and MVP. The coaches put in the All-Star game every year in addition to heaping praise on him.

If there's a bias against Dirk it's coming from the casual fan. The fan who has never voted him an All-Star starter. The majority of those fans are white.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Who do you think has a bias against Dirk?

I believe I've already answered this question....the general media holds Dirk contemptibly in high praise..as in...they HAVE to admit his greatness, but they never miss the opportunity to take a shot at his weaknesses either. A lot of back handed compliments. Dallas as been too good over the past 3 years and Dirk has been too special not to receive many accolades...but how many of the national media would have Dirk as a top 5 player in the league? They are forced to admit him as an all star and all NBA guy...but how many really appreciate Dirk as being as good as any guy not named Kobe or Lebron?

I'm not willing to go dig up all the articles that you and I (and the members of this board) have read where Dirk is openly been ridiculed and talked negatively about to prove my point...but that is just it...I don't need to. Because, drino, you know there is a feeling of less respect for Dirk among national media types than many other all stars...heck, even goofy Manu gets crazy love from those idiots and he is only a "very good" player.

I think flaco hit a lot of my feelings on the head in his recent comment. For some reason...it is easy for people not to appreciate Dirk's game...and that is disappointing.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Who do you think has a bias against Dirk? It's not the players. Most everything I hear from the players with regards to Dirk is complimentary.

Over the past three years the media has voted him first team All-NBA twice and MVP. The coaches put in the All-Star game every year in addition to heaping praise on him.

If there's a bias against Dirk it's coming from the casual fan. The fan who has never voted him an All-Star starter. The majority of those fans are white.

I don't think the color of the fan matters. Casual NBA fans think of Dirk as soft and overrated because:

(in order of importance)

A. He looks goofy a lot
B. He's Euro.
C. He's white.

They're all part of the package, in my opinion.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think the color of the fan matters. Casual NBA fans think of Dirk as soft and overrated because:

(in order of importance)

A. He looks goofy a lot
B. He's Euro.
C. He's white.

They're all part of the package, in my opinion.

It generally doesn't matter.

I only brought it up because of sike's comment that it's natural to dislike someone that's better at your game than you are. The implication being that any disrespect of Dirk is fueled by jealousy.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It generally doesn't matter.

I only brought it up because of sike's comment that it's natural to dislike someone that's better at your game than you are. The implication being that any disrespect of Dirk is fueled by jealousy.

That I agree with. I think in general Dirk's game is highly respected among players. I mean we've had two Hall of Fame players push to play with Dirk just this season (Kobe and Kidd)

You do have the random dummy like Bobby Jackson come out and say he's soft at time.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

The implication being that any disrespect of Dirk is fueled by jealousy.

what I said is that is was only "human nature"...I did not mean to have those words understood as "The only reason people may dislike Dirk is jealousy" I apologize for my lack of clarity.

But I do feel that in Dirk's case...pettiness/jealousy is a likely motive for dislike. But to be clear...not the only potential reason. Flat out racism could be a reason...or as we mentioned...his lack of "coolness" combined with his amazingly uncanny skill could easily be a reason.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It generally doesn't matter.

I only brought it up because of sike's comment that it's natural to dislike someone that's better at your game than you are. The implication being that any disrespect of Dirk is fueled by jealousy.

This hits literally closer to home than most of you know. Some of the dislike for Dirk was fanned from within the team itself. I remember watching the Mavs when Dirk and Steve began to play well and gradually became the face of the francise. This was not taken well by a certain player who began to poison other players. After Nash left there were times when it seem the only time Dirk was not being frozen out was when he was playing with the rookies or Stack. Remember when the year before He won the MVP and he was in the conversation for MVP and one of his own teammates said that he didn't deserve it. Who ever heard of a teammate making such a statement. This same teammate once the real instigator was gone became Dirks biggest supporter and on court partner. That instigator had also earlier spoke against Dirk to the media for calling out Damp during the playoffs. This helped validate the anti-Dirk media attack led by Peasent Charles ( he is no Sir to me).

They finally got rid of the snake who poisoned others against Dirk and his name was Finley. And it was all caused by jealousy and envy.Before Dirk and Nash arrived he was the only Allstar. Then he was aced out because the team didn't warrent three Allstars. It was totally his team before Dirk arrived. Dirk is very neive as evidenced by his personal relationships. He doesn't know when some one is stabbing him in the back so he doesn't defend himself. This makes him an easy mark.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree...but the problem is all these humans.

"soft" and "no defense" are almost catch phrases for "white" in the NBA...just like saying, "Oh he is a find set shooter". I'm not trying to sound like this is something I've spent a ton of time thinking about...but it is only human nature to dislike someone who is better at your game than you are...especially someone who is different than you. It may have more to do with his heritage than his skin color...or maybe its because he is a Maverick....I'll admit that...but there is a reason for the bias against him...and I doubt it has anything to do with how weak his defense used to be. I don't see Mello, Nash, Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Antwan Jamison, or Paul Pierce get smashed for their lack of D and they are all stars too.

Spot on...I don't recall those guys being called soft black boys for example. I dont' think dirk has enough gangsta in him. It probably embarrasses the brotha's to have the soft white european kicking their assess on the court so much.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Spot on...I don't recall those guys being called soft black boys for example. I dont' think dirk has enough gangsta in him. It probably embarrasses the brotha's to have the soft white european kicking their assess on the court so much.

While I'll admit that soft is a catch phrase often used to described white/euro players you rarely hear them called dumb, ignorant, stupid or having a low I.Q. Those monikers are reserved for black players and coaches...give me soft any day.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

While I'll admit that soft is a catch phrase often used to described white/euro players you rarely hear them called dumb, ignorant, stupid or having a low I.Q. Those monikers are reserved for black players and coaches...give me soft any day.

In a world that is not black and white, you are either soft or a thug.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

While I'll admit that soft is a catch phrase often used to described white/euro players you rarely hear them called dumb, ignorant, stupid or having a low I.Q. Those monikers are reserved for black players and coaches...give me soft any day.

those other monikers are not under discussion in this thread...I'm not sure what purpose they have in this conversation...except to say that "other people are racist to!" Which is not under any debate I heartily agree with you if that is your point.

Personally, I would prefer not to be called any of those things.

But I'm not sure I agree with the exclusive use of "low hoop IQ" as something only said about black players...I seem to remember tons of dumb white stiffs that Nellie drafted who had ZERO hoop IQ....and we said such.

the "Soft" moniker is almost exclusively for white players though....it denotes weakness.

and when 19 year old Dirk entered this league...he certainly was "soft"...but 30 year old Dirk is a warrior. He wages battle differently than Kobe or LeBron to be sure...that man has heart none the less.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

those other monikers are not under discussion in this thread...I'm not sure what purpose they have in this conversation...except to say that "other people are racist to!" Which is not under any debate I heartily agree with you if that is your point.

Personally, I would prefer not to be called any of those things.

You're right. It's probably worthy of it's own thread but since we're on the subject of race I just threw it out there. I don't even know if I'd call it blatantly racist in most cases. It 's more if a subconcious thing. Kind of like the bit that BAD radio does.

But I'm not sure I agree with the exclusive use of "low hoop IQ" as something only said about black players...I seem to remember tons of dumb white stiffs that Nellie drafted who had ZERO hoop IQ....and we said such.

I don't remember their basketball IQ ever being questioned. They were called big white stiffs but that's about it.

the "Soft" moniker is almost exclusively for white players though....it denotes weakness.

and when 19 year old Dirk entered this league...he certainly was "soft"...but 30 year old Dirk is a warrior. He wages battle differently than Kobe or LeBron to be sure...that man has heart none the less.

I would say that it's used for euro's more than American whites.