critiquing dirk - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 05-02-2001, 07:21 PM

just a thread to voice your opinions on what dirk needs to do to improve his game

LonestarROB · 05-02-2001, 08:05 PM

Defense, although it's getting better, still has alot of room for improvement.

Passer. Needs to become a better passer IMO.

MFFL · 05-02-2001, 10:45 PM

Dirk's defense is the worst on the team. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the coaching staff. BUT Dirk was able to teach himself to rebound, so it's not a reach for him to learn to play NBA defense.

Tarzan · 05-03-2001, 05:31 AM

Dirk could put on about 20 pounds of muscle. I think that would help his game as much as anything. As long as he doesn't bulk up too much and start losing quickness. I think he has a considerable amount of muscle he can put on before that happens though.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 08:13 AM

actually, i've never heard the coaching staff say that
yes, his defense does need to improve, he could use a little more muscle, but not much
his passing, along with finley's and howards all need to get better. none of them pass out of the double team well

his defense is much better than howard's, without a doubt, sorry mffl

i agree tarzan, add muscle as long as it doesn't detract from his game, but sometimes it's hard to get to the point without crossing over

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 08:25 AM

dirk does need to improve defensively...but, he may never be a great defensive player because the same things that make him awesome offensively could take away a bit on defense.
small forwards are going to be quicker as long as he's playing small forwards.
it's hard for a seven footer to be as quick as a guy that's 6'6, but, dirk does have the ability to recover and block shots.
i expect dirk to continue to make tremendous strides defensively over the next couple of years

actually, he received some consideration for the nba all defensive team this year (although i DON'T believe he's deserving of consideration)

yes, his defense can be a liability at times, but he's getting there

TheKid · 05-03-2001, 08:56 AM

I don't buy that smaller guys will cause a problem because he is mobile and he should be able to nuetralize that. I'm just not buying that one. The one thing that we need to recognize is VERY few people in the NBA can shut another opponent down. So if anyone is looking for ANYONE of the Mavericks players to completely shut another down, you're going to be waiting a long time!!!! So I don't see why Dirk can't become a good defender. Put it this way, Bird wasn't quick by ANY stretch of the imagination but he never really got torched either. He just found a way to defend.

MFFL · 05-03-2001, 08:59 AM

Bird owned the passing lanes. He was not a very good individual defender, but his man rarely got the ball because it was so difficult to pass around Bird. Plus Bird was a master of the sneaky steal (aka Stockton).

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 09:02 AM

i agree thekid
i do think that some of the small forwards will be able to beat him to the hole because they are quicker than dirk (yes, dirk has amazing quickness for his height)
but, i think dirk will be able to make up for it because of his ability to recover and swat shots.
i think he's an ok defensive player now..
but, i do think he'll become a much better than average defensive player in the next couple of years.
he's like a sponge, constantly absorbing NBA knowledge. he's also constantly working his butt off.
thekid, i wasn't insinuating that his quickness was going to be his downfall defensively, i just meant that he will get driven by at times but he will also be able to recover and swat quite a few shots.

and no, very few nba players have ever been able to completely shut down a top offensive scoring threat. the great players are going to get their points, it just comes down to how hard you make them work for their shots and their points

MFFL · 05-03-2001, 09:05 AM

I agree with you murph on not being able to shut down the top NBA players. But if you work their ass off on BOTH ends of the court, they tend to just get points and not dominate a game.

TheKid · 05-03-2001, 09:12 AM

Exactly what I'm saying. However I don't like to hear that because he's so big we should accept people going by him. Now granted, I don't care who you are people are going to go by you at one time or another, but as long as it doesn't happen all the time, then it's ok. I just don't want people making excuses for him and that seems to be what you were saying.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 09:23 AM

no, not at all
he'll have to use his other strengths to make up for someone driving by him occassionally
recover, and block the shot.
no excuses, he has the tools to be very effective defensively. and he will get to that point

i'm not saying accept people going by him, i'm just saying that it will happen at times...and i'm saying that dirk must also recover and block the shot,

MFFL · 05-03-2001, 09:29 AM

With the rule changes next year, Dirk won't have to worry about people driving past him. Because when they do, they'll encounter...

THE MANTIS!

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 09:30 AM

bradley's ability to hit the 10-15 foot jumper will be valuable next year

dallaslaker · 05-03-2001, 10:29 AM

Dirk will never have the foot speed of a 6'6" SF, but he doesn't need it with his long frame. He should be able to recover and still be able to force a bad/tough shot when they drives by.

But on the other end, he should be able to post-up the guy for a serious mis-match. The last few games he has been posting up Marshall which really surprises me because I consider him to be a good defensive player.

The two areas I would like to see significant improvement is his array of low-post moves and his passing WHEN he gets double-teamed on the post.

His defense will naturally improve with age and growing into his body. Remember he is only 23 years old and still a kid by NBA standards.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 10:44 AM

i agree...all great points

how awesome is dirk going to be?
if he's at this level now, and he has room for improvement...how awesome is he going to be, because you know he WILL put in the necessary time in the gym to improve his game

dallaslaker · 05-03-2001, 10:56 AM

He will be a guy that is the perenial All-Star. But, he still has a LONG way to go to be thrown in with Larry Bird. That guy lived and breathed basketball his entire life. I love Dirk's game and I think he will improve greatly, but let's hold off calling him one of the 50 all-time greats right now. Take another look in 5-6 years and then decide.

dallaslaker · 05-03-2001, 10:56 AM

One more post and I'm no longer a freakin' JUNIOR!!!

dallaslaker · 05-03-2001, 10:56 AM

Member me, baby!

TheKid · 05-03-2001, 12:37 PM

I think also that he doesn't need the foot speed of someone 6'6. I think he'll be fine though, I'm not really concerned about Dirk to be honest.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2001, 12:41 PM

no, me neither.
dirk is going to be awesome.
his potential is only limited by how much he wants to work for it
and there's probably only one guy on the team that works as hard as dirk, and that's nash.

he'll be fine, ...actually, he's probably going to be in the all-star game 7-10 times....he might score 25,000 points, and average 9.5 rebounds a game for his career
i know all of that is speculation, but the sky is the limit for him. he has that much ability and that great of a work ethic

MFFL · 05-04-2001, 10:46 PM

Hey Murph - not trying to start something, just backing up what I said about Dirk. This was from the notes section of today's Dallas Morning News.

"All-Defensive Team - Mavericks coach Don Nelson, like most team employees, was more than surprised to hear that third-year forward Dirk Nowitzki earned one All-Defensive Team nomination. Coaches make All-Defensive Team selections and can't vote for their own players. "Holger must have had a vote," quipped Nelson, referring to Holger Geschwindner, Nowitzki's mentor from Germany. Nowitzki, while improved on the defensive end, is rated as adequate at best by his coach. Michael Finley received six votes, and Shawn Bradley got only one, while stalwart Mavericks defenders Greg Buckner and Steve Nash were shut out.

Murphy3 · 05-05-2001, 01:13 AM

i agree that he's not where he needs to be defensively yet. but i think he will get there, and i also think that he will get there.

hey, it's no problem mffl
i have no problem with someone wanting to debate basketball opinions. especially when they have something to back up their opinions. your opinions are very welcome.
it just seems that a couple of guys want to ride me and ride dirk for anything they can.
i didn't think it was a crime to have dirk as your favorite player but also like finley as well

scooterj5 · 05-05-2001, 04:03 AM

Agree about Dirk but you can't say Fin works just as hard as he does.

MFFL · 05-05-2001, 08:29 AM

i didn't think it was a crime to have dirk as your favorite player but also like finley as well

It might not be a felony on this board, but it's certainly a misdemeanor. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 05-05-2001, 09:05 AM

i agee that fin busts his ass.
but, i just think that dirk has the ideal height, quickness, shooting touch, and ethic to be a phenomenal player for a long time.

it's nothing against finley, ..nothing at all.
i just think that it is so rare to have a guy dirk's height that can shoot and handle the ball like he can, plus, he has an amazing work ethic (as does finley).
finley will be a good to great player for several years to come.
dirk, with his height, shot, agility, age, and work ethic,...it's just amazing how much better he can get.

if finley somehow is better than dirk 2-3 years from now, then the mavs will have one of the best 1-2 punches ever. and you know what, that would be awesome if it happens that way. we should all want both of them to push each other to be better players.

MFFL · 05-05-2001, 09:18 AM

I totally agree murphy. Finley has peaked at his game, which is not a bad thing - hell even Jordan peaked at some point. Finley will continue to refine his game every year and become more polished in certain areas, but he will not dramatically improve. And it's because he busts his ass that he's got as much out of his talent as he has.

Now Dirk is a different story. Dirk is >almost< as valuable to the Mavs as Finley RIGHT NOW . But Dirk has enourmous upside. Dirk could develop into one of the top 5 players in the game. But as the famous quote goes "potential just means you haven't done it yet".

Murphy3 · 05-05-2001, 09:26 AM

but he's already a 3rd team all nba player, so he's definitely realized his potential and talent, and he's only 22.

he would have been an all-star this year if he wasn't playing a position that was more talented this year than any other position has been in a very long time.

dirk,fin,nash and bradley will lead this team to future greatness

MFFL · 05-05-2001, 09:38 AM

I disagree. Dirk is far from realizing his potential and talent. This is the first year that Dirk has rebounded. He will get much better, probably to a 11 to 11.5 RPG average. Dirk will learn defense, if not man-to-man then at least passing lanes. Dirk will learn the fine art of stripping the ball. Dirk will learn to control the ball better when he dribbles, so quick guards are not stealing the ball from him. Dirk will develop a low-post game. These are not areas where he is just refining his talent. These are areas where Dirk will make dramatic improvements. Dirk will probably be 28 or so before he has realized his potential and talent.

Murphy3 · 05-05-2001, 10:16 AM

haha...let me rephrase what i said, i can see how that one line could be confusing

if you think i meant realize his potential, as in, he has met his potential...then i didn't mean it that way.

what i meant was that dirk does realize he has great potential and talent .. which is why he's in the gym busting his tail all of the time getting better at EVERY aspect of his game.
everything has greatly improved.
he can now create his own shots, which some people have knocked him for.
when you can creat your own shots, especially at his height, you can play for any team any time.

i don't mean realized his potential as how i think you're thinking i mean it....no, dirk is nowhere near as good of a player as he's going to be. that will be 3-6 years..which is amazing.
i meant, he realizes he has tremendous talent and potential

Murphy3 · 05-05-2001, 10:18 AM

haha, well, i guess i can see how you would think i meant that. the way i prhased it wasn't very clear, could have been taken either way.

trust me mffl, i think the sky is the limit for dirk. he's one of the top players at his position already in the nba
this guy may average 26 points and 11 rebounds before we know it. not to mention averaging a block and half a game, plus solid defense. the sky is truly the limit for him

MFFL · 05-05-2001, 06:45 PM

It's cool. I like Finley more than Dirk, but I recognize how special Dirk can be.

Murphy3 · 05-07-2001, 09:01 AM

that's cool, i won't hold that against you [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
i like fin, but, i admire that dedication that dirk and nash have in the gym. yes, i know finley busts his butt, but from what i here, dirk and nash are usually the first person at practice, the first people shooting before games, and the last ones to leave. i truly admire that