Obama's take on Religion

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The humble approach would be to sincerely believe that your interpretation of God's word is accurate, but to also recognize that God and his Word are far larger than we humans could ever have the capacity to realize...and maybe we as individuals or even as collective religions don't have the whole thing figured out just yet.

I don't have anything figured out about God's will. That's why I have a Bible to remind me. I'm a sinner and I will falter.

[dalmations202]

My problem with most Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc religions are that they start by letting people think they are God. They get to decide what is "fair". My way is the right way, and everyone else is wrong.

God shouldn't/wouldn't/couldn't do this this this or this.

Just a FYI : God doesn't let his creation control things, and it is his version of fair not ours that counts.

Secondly - most people do not take the time to logically think through the whole process. You have to start with how/why we are here. Logically think through evolution, and you cannot come to any other conclusion but that we were made by an Omnipotent Being. Something that can create governing laws like water will float when solidified, but so will steam. Laws of gravity, time, etc. What would cause them to happen, without a grand creator? There is no other logical way.

Once you know there is a God. Why are we here? -- to bring him happiness. Because if he didn't want us here, he would simply remove us.

Why did he give us free will? -- he didn't want robots. He wanted someone to love.

What did Satan do that was so bad? -- decided he could be God.
What was one of the first lies that Satan told Eve? -- you can be like God.
What else did Satan do? refused to bow to Gods creation -- man : when he is outside of time and more powerful and smarter.

Think about it -- how many people do you know today who would refuse to bow to someone lower than them? How many people would refuse to bow to anyone? How many people want what's best for themselves first and foremost? Just like Satan.

Unfortunately all of us have self-preservation and greed built into us. Selfishness starts at birth.

So what about Jesus? Why did God send his son? -- So we would have a way to have our sins removed. Without him, then we are still the same creature that believes in himself first. We are selfish by our fallen nature. Jesus gives us a way to not be selfish, but take on the role he showed us of being selfless and obeying the father.

I think it is a mistake that people believe that billions who don't know Christ are going to Hell. Christ says that his will is that no man would go to Hell. Hell is designed for beings that are eternal and can't die.

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever -
Gen 3:23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So man did not take of the tree of life -- alas he can still die -- so he has no need to spend time in Hell.

With that said, some will choose Satan who will give them everlasting life -- but in Hell.

Now, from my interpretation of the Bible -- not from my Church-- the way to heaven is through Christ, but Heaven and Hell are not the only options. You will be judged, you will have to make a decision of either God or Self (Satan). And if you don't choose Christ now, to speak for you -- you will be judged by your works, and you will be found guilty. (Those who believe in Christ are guilty as well, they just have him paying the price).

God is love - it says so in the Bible. God loves us enough to give us free will. But with that free will comes consequences. Each and everyone of us has to decide -- do we want to live in love with God, under his rule -- or do we want to rebel and try to do it on our own.

I can't think of a worse Hell than not knowing Love. Not having anyone who had anything but their own interests around. I mean think about it -- if your parents hadn't loved you -- you wouldn't have made it past day one. You would have just died from starvation or dehydration, etc. Someone had to care at least that much. Children? nope. No spouse trying to meet any of your needs. No friends, nothing but everyone out for themselves (remind you of the business world today?).

Take away Love, and you have taken away everything worth living for to begin with. Why do you think Star athletes, etc have such a hard time -- when they realize that people are around for the money, but none of them really care for them. They can't find the high. They can't find anything worth having that they can't buy or have. They end up miserable, and without purpose. Many CEO's die within 2 years of retirement for this reason. Sad.

I find it sad that many people don't understand, solely because they still think they are in control, and they are "right". Many people won't pray and ask for him and his guidance. I mean how hard is it to admit "you aren't everything -- and you need help"? Are we that prideful, and arrogant that we can't admit that someone else might actually control things? I was until I reached rock bottom, and gave up. Since that time, I have been on top and bottom of life, and see very little difference. None of it matters without love and peace (in the mind and heart). My relationship grew as I gave in. Wow all my life I was taught by the world to fight and never give in -- and when I gave in was when grew the most.

Many on this board will think this is dumb. I know because it also says that in the Bible. Some will understand. Some will condemn it, but realize later the truth to it.

To all - cie la vie because we are not in control, but can only control our own lives (to an extent).
----------------------------------------------------

You want to know the difference between true Christianity and all other religions including protestant religions, catholicism, muslim, jewish, etc.

All religions say -- " You need to.................."
In true Christianity -- Jesus said " It is done" --- believe in him and it is done. Works will follow because of your belief in him, not do the works to get to him.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The Protestant Reformation was a battle within Christianity, no? The Great Awakenings...what exactly did they accomplish?

Protestantism is responsible for the "Protestant work ethic" which is considered a big contributor to the rise of capitalism and the merchant class. People believed that they could talk to god themselves rather than relying on religious leaders and institutions, so they were more likely to believe that thier destiny on earth was more about what they created for themselves rather than where they were on the class ladder.

I pulled this directly out of my as*, but Im pretty sure I heard this in school or read it somewhere.

This was a great article BTW. Reminds me of that book about the Indian kid who was lost at sea with all those animals.
Edit: Life of Pi is the book

[chumdawg]

In that case, the Protestants were at the forefront of the Secular Revolution.

[FreshJive]

Yep and the civil rights movement

[fluid.forty.one]

The thing I dislike about a lot of Christians AND Atheists AND etc (nothing person Dalmations, but what you wrote is an example of this.. I'm not saying you're wrong or you should change your ways, that is who you are and I respect that.. just saying my part ) is that a lot of the time it's "I'm right and some day you'll realize that". Just because at some point you went from my mindset to where your mindset is now does not mean that that's how it's suppose to be. If I dislike a movie, and then later like it.. it doesn't mean that I should believe that everyone who dislikes that movie will eventually like it... if that makes any sense

For me it's not so much "I'm right and you're wrong" as it is "I disagree with you".

You say evolution is not logical if you think it through all the way. Well.. of course we don't know what happened when time and space started. It could very WELL be because of an omnipotent God. It could also be something else that we do not know about. We are not all knowing.. we learn and then know. It's silly to imply that "well.. with the knowledge we have right now we cannot link science to the universe's creation, so it obviously didn't happen that way". If we never looked into things we didn't know about, we would never discover anything.. scientifically OR spiritually.

No one "knows" for sure how the world started, or if there is a God. You strongly believe and have 100% faith in it and I respect that. That does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. It just means that you are right in your mind, which may be just as important.

Also, what's wrong with just saying "I don't know". There are millions of things we don't know.. I'm not sure why we are so frustrated by not having a concrete answer to how things began and if there is a God.

[fluid.forty.one]

"There is no other logical way."

Why should we expect human logic to explain something that is billions of times bigger, older, and more complex than anything we normally deal with in our logic. Are you saying the knowledge is in there and if we can't find it, we should just chalk it up to God? maybe it's just me but I don't give humans that much credit.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

"There is no other logical way."

Why should we expect human logic to explain something that is billions of times bigger, older, and more complex than anything we normally deal with in our logic. Are you saying the knowledge is in there and if we can't find it, we should just chalk it up to God? maybe it's just me but I don't give humans that much credit.

I understand what you are saying. I really do. I have debated this issue too many times though.

Study evolution. Study everything about it. My father spent the last years of his formal working life as a science teacher -- and I have read it. I have been through evolution and the concepts presented for years.

With that said, it has been proven wrong statistically, scientifically and with common sense. The problem is "No one else has any other option, except God, so we keep teaching it as truth in all the text books."

I'll tell you what -- you seem to be at least willing to broach this subject -- even if you think that I am just a "religionist". Read the book, Logic's End by Keith A. Robinson.
It is about the logical conclusions of true atheism (No God) within a fictional sci-fi type novel.

Now with that said, you are correct -- I believe because of who I am. Maybe the answer is that we as a race are too stupid to understand. Maybe the billions of years (NOT) that some scientist are now claiming, is the reason.

If it is true though, and there is no after-life --- then why have rules or laws today?
Why should I have anything to worry about? Just myself and my desires. The end result is just death -- so what difference does it make whether I am good or not?

With all that said, maybe I am wrong. Maybe all of my life is for not, and there is no after life. So I lived my life trying to help others and wasted my time. What is the other alternative? I lived for self and got what when I die? I mean what is it you carry with you when you die -- and death is another one of those governing laws that was set by someone.

The answer always ends up being -- you believe in God (a supernatural being) or that you just can't believe, because that would mean that we owe our existence to someone else and we are not the most powerful beings in the universe.

It is just hard on man's pride to admit that he isn't "all that".

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The thing I dislike about a lot of Christians AND Atheists AND etc (nothing person Dalmations, but what you wrote is an example of this.. I'm not saying you're wrong or you should change your ways, that is who you are and I respect that.. just saying my part ) is that a lot of the time it's "I'm right and some day you'll realize that". Just because at some point you went from my mindset to where your mindset is now does not mean that that's how it's suppose to be. If I dislike a movie, and then later like it.. it doesn't mean that I should believe that everyone who dislikes that movie will eventually like it... if that makes any sense

For me it's not so much "I'm right and you're wrong" as it is "I disagree with you".

You say evolution is not logical if you think it through all the way. Well.. of course we don't know what happened when time and space started. It could very WELL be because of an omnipotent God. It could also be something else that we do not know about. We are not all knowing.. we learn and then know. It's silly to imply that "well.. with the knowledge we have right now we cannot link science to the universe's creation, so it obviously didn't happen that way". If we never looked into things we didn't know about, we would never discover anything.. scientifically OR spiritually.

No one "knows" for sure how the world started, or if there is a God. You strongly believe and have 100% faith in it and I respect that. That does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. It just means that you are right in your mind, which may be just as important.

Also, what's wrong with just saying "I don't know". There are millions of things we don't know.. I'm not sure why we are so frustrated by not having a concrete answer to how things began and if there is a God.

Let me answer a few things from my opinion.

I don't know. At least, not in a way that I can prove to everyone.

The reason for wanting a concrete answer to how things began and if there is a God, is because of how we really want to act.

If there is an after life and we have to answer to God, then we will act one way. If not, then we have a tendency to act another.

Example: When a police officer is setting where you can see him -- you drive the speed limit (law). When he isn't there -- many, many will go faster than the limit. Why do they speed if the limit is there for safety? Why do they slow down when the police officer is there? They speed because they can and they think their situation is more important than the safety. They slow down because of the repercussions.

Life is exactly this way. If there is a God, and we answer to him, then we need to act this way. If there isn't then all I need to do is get enough weapons to defend myself - then I can do anything to anyone at anytime. No repercussions because that officer is not there.

Logically, can you see the importance of this answer now?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

If there is an after life and we have to answer to God, then we will act one way. If not, then we have a tendency to act another.

Let me get this straight. As support for your claim you are using an example of people behaving in a certain way not because of anything to do with God but rather, because of social constructs men have made among themselves? Are you trying to prove the point, or disprove it?

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Let me get this straight. As support for your claim you are using an example of people behaving in a certain way not because of anything to do with God but rather, because of social constructs men have made among themselves? Are you trying to prove the point, or disprove it?

Have you asked yourself these same questions?

I am stating that people act a certain way, because of God (controlling force, reason, etc).

Without God, I am stating that there would be no reason to act any specific way, because there would be no restraint. See Nero.

[wmbwinn]

I have a few supportive supportive statements and a few disagreements with the original ideas expressed by Obama.

Supportive:
1)I also have a belief (actually etched into doctrine) that the Hindu boy or man is not going to hell.

God is a just judge. To judge two persons under one law, both persons have to have several factors in common:
a)both have a knowledge of the law
b)both have competency to live by the law
c)both have opportunity to live the law
d)both have the opportunity to partake of grace (a generic word for the blessing of God given to be able to partake of His blessings and to blessed to be a better man; ultimately grace is what saves us under the Gospel of the Savior).
e)both have to have a time period to improve their situation (you may use words like enlightenment or sanctification here).

All of the above have to be in place to look at two men and consign one to hell and the other to heaven.

2)A great majority of Christian dogmas disagree with what I wrote above. Therefore, I applaud Obama for coming to what I agree is a correct view on the Hindu and others with no significant opportunity in mortality to have the opportunities of a Christian in a Western country.

It would be unjust of God to consign the Hindu in question to hell. It is hard to argue any other way.
So, good job Obama IMO

My points of concern:
1)It appears that his religious compass is based on a Deist style self determination of what is right and wrong. It does not appear that Obama has much respect for revealed truth or absolute truth.

2)I have grave concern for mixing religion and politics. Interestingly, Obama speaks much of keeping religion out of politics. Yet, his summary statement of what he views as his "conversion" or powerful attraction to Faith is political... Obama appears to me to value Faith (with a Christian tilt while denying revealed absolute truth) because it has great power to improve society. He speaks of the Civil Rights movement as a victory of the African American church. That is magical to him. So, it appears to me that Obama's Faith is possibly summarized as something like:
"I believe that we should help each other and improve society and that 'God' approves of that message."

Now, that statement is true. But, it falls far short of a revealed absolute truth acceptance. He plainly repeatedly decries revealed absolute truth.

3)There is absolutely no place anywhere in the New Testament where the Savior mixed politics into Christianity. It is such an abomination to turn a church into a political power. It was an abomination when the Catholic (and its offshoots) Church was a Political power. It is an obomination for the Evangelical and African American churches to use Church for politics. Jesus never intended it that way. I can say with all smugness that you cannot find any proof anywhere in the New Testament that Jesus wanted us to use the Church to win Presidential elections or to support any political movement.

Every time that someone marches to power under a banner of 'God', all hell breaks loose and the results are disasterous.

[pkdumas]

My head hurts.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I am stating that people act a certain way, because of God (controlling force, reason, etc).

Without God, I am stating that there would be no reason to act any specific way, because there would be no restraint. See Nero.

I still don't understand your point. You already cited one example of people acting a certain way (not breaking the speed limit) for a reason that has nothing at all to do with God. Man's law, you are talking about there, not God's law. Man's law does provide restraints, reasons for not acting in a specific way. As you described. Yet...you ascribe all good behavior to God's law?

I think what you mean to say is something like: "I act in a certain way, and I believe that I would have no reason to act in that way were it not for God...and I don't see why anyone else would either."

Obviously, you are making the "man is inherently unlawful so unless there is God's law there will be chaos" argument (as it were). But your support undermines your very argument. It would be one thing if you said: "Look what happens when man makes his own law...no one bothers to follow it." But instead you said something like: "Look what happens when man makes his own law...people generally fall in line."

Or, are you saying that if you didn't believe in God you would drive like a maniac?