The Obama Gun Effect

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

You guys are missing the boat. I pointed out that the effect of Obama in the White House and a Dem controlled Congress is causing suppliers of guns and ammunition to be OUT OF STUFF.

Guys like me are buying it all up...

Heck, it is a good investment just to buy and hold because the value on this stuff is going through the roof.

great, keep up the spending, it helps the economy.

as for the 'good investment', guess it depends on the future regs. do you expect to be a person who engages in illegal commerce?

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

great, keep up the spending, it helps the economy.

as for the 'good investment', guess it depends on the future regs. do you expect to be a person who engages in illegal commerce?

no, silly. The stuff that was purchased and owned legally will continue to be legal. It will be "grandfathered in" and then the price goes through the ceiling as the supply is limited to that which is already here, excluding further production and/or imports.

[wmbwinn]

The following is the message I received after a large order of ammunition (I have deleted the email address and other identifying information):

"On 12/04/08 we shipped orders out that were placed on November 24th of 2008

At this time we are not accepting walk-in customers. Please place your order online. Sorry for the inconvience.

At this time we are recieving a lot of calls about order status, if prices are current and if items are in stock. Prices are correct as shown on the webpage and the items are in stock at this time. Please email us and not call so that we can better handle your orders. Email us at youdon'tneedtoknowwhoIorderedfrom@noneofyourbusine ss.com so that your questions can be answered in a timely manner. This way we can better serve you by processing orders and shipping them out. It may take up to 24 business hrs for us to reply to your email but please be patient as we are doing our very best to handle the volume of emails, calls and orders.

Due to the volume of orders that we are receiving at myfavoriteonlineammunitionsupplier.com , the shipment of your order may be delayed by 10-14 business days. Although we will do all we can to fulfill your order, we are experiencing product shortages that may result in backorders or delays of specific product from your order.
We apologize for this inconvenience and please be patient."

This is what is going on all over the firearms and ammo industry right now. We are all picking up our stuff now rather than hoping we can pick it up later...

[wmbwinn]

Here is another webpage's response to ammunition orders:

"AMMUNITION IS CURRENTLY IN SHORT SUPPLY DUE TO NUMEROUS FACTORS INCLUDING THE WAR EFFORT.
BELOW IS WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE IN STOCK.

[none listed at all]
MORE AMMO COMING SOON."

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

no, silly. The stuff that was purchased and owned legally will continue to be legal. It will be "grandfathered in" and then the price goes through the ceiling as the supply is limited to that which is already here, excluding further production and/or imports.

what? "grandfathered" that would allow for commerce in regulated/prohibited items?

quite a fantasy.

keep on buying, the gun retailers like getting your money.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

what? "grandfathered" that would allow for commerce in regulated/prohibited items?

quite a fantasy.

keep on buying, the gun retailers like getting your money.

you should quit speaking of things you know nothing about. Do some research. The various gun bans including assault weapon bans all allowed for a "grandfather clause" that stated that all previously imported/produced/owned weapons that existed prior to the ban are legal. Thus, it is common language in the gun industry to speak of a weapon as "pre-ban" or "post-ban" based on its production/importation date.

Besides, the "assault weapons" bans have all been easy to circumvent quite legally. The last (now expired) ban described the weapons and made certain characteristics illegal. The companies just removed the "objectionable" characteristics and kept on selling the ARs, AK47s, M14s, FALs, etc., etc.

All you had to do to have an "assault weapon" (the name assault weapon is funny and inaccurate because no military uses these "assault weapons" as they are semi automatic and the military weapons are fully automatic) is to remove the following features:
-magazine larger than 10 round capacity
-pistol grip
-threaded barrel end (or you can just weld the suppressor on the end of the threaded barrel which makes it legal as well)
-grenade launcher and grenade launcher attachment
-knife (bayonet, bayonet lug)
-barrel of a minimum length
-overall gun length of a certain length
-etc.

Anyway, the last ban was a joke. The guns kept flowing.

Anyway, every ban/restriction ever put in place included a "grandfather clause"

[wmbwinn]

posted just for your educational benefit:

Guns.

The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) estimates that there were about 215 million guns in 1999,1 when the number of new guns was averaging about 4.5 million (about 2%) annually.2 A report for the National Academy of Sciences put the 1999 figure at 258 million.3 According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 60.4 million approved (new and used) NICS firearm transactions between 1994 2004.4 The number of NICS checks for firearm purchases or permits increased 3.2% between 2003-2004.

Gun Owners.

The number of gun owners is also at an all-time high. The U.S. population is at an all-time high (294 million), and rises about 1% annually.5 Numerous surveys over the last 40+ years have found that almost half of all households have at least one gun owner.6 Some surveys since the late 1990s have indicated a smaller incidence of gun ownership,7 probably because of some respondents` concerns about "gun control," residually due, perhaps, to the anti-gun policies of the Clinton Administration.

Right-to-Carry.

The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 38 today.8 In 2004, states with RTC laws, compared to other states, had lower violent crime rates on average. Total violent crime was lower by 21%, murder by 28%, robbery by 43%, and aggravated assault by 13%.9

"Less Gun Control."

Violent crime has declined while many "gun control" laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive. Many states have eliminated prohibitory or restrictive carry laws, in favor of Right-to-Carry laws. The federal Brady Act`s waiting period on handgun sales ended in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported National Instant Check, and some states thereafter eliminated waiting periods, purchase permit requirements, or other laws delaying gun sales. The federal "assault weapon" ban expired in 2004. All states now have hunter protection laws, 46 have range protection laws, 46 prohibit local jurisdictions from imposing gun laws more restrictive than state law, 44 protect the right to arms in their constitutions, and 33 prohibit frivolous lawsuits against the firearm industry.10

Studies by and for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and even researchers who support "gun control," have found no evidence that "gun control" reduces crime.11

Crime.

The FBI reports that the nation`s total violent crime rate declined every year between 1991 2004.12 In 2004, the violent crime rate fell to a 30-year low, lower than any time since 1974. The murder rate fell to a 39-year low, lower than any time since 1965. The 2004 robbery and aggravated assault rates were lower than any time since 1968 and 1984, respectively. Since 1991, total violent crime has decreased 39%; murder and non-negligent manslaughter, 44%; rape, 24%; robbery, 50%; and aggravated assault, 33%.13 Between 2003-2004, the violent crime rate declined 2.2%.14 Concurrently, the most recent Bureau of Justice Statistics crime victimization survey found that violent crime is lower than anytime since 1973, when the first such survey was conducted.15

Notes

1. BATF, "Crime Gun Trace Reports (1999) National Report," Nov. 2000, p. ix (www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/1999/index.htm).
2. BATF, "Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002" (www.atf.gov/pub/index.htm#Firearms).
3. National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005.
4. BJS, "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2004" (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/pdf/bcft04.pdf).
5. Bureau of the Census (http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est.html).
6. Gary Kleck, Targeting Firearms, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, pp. 94, 98-100.
7. E.g., BJS Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 2002, Table 2.58, (www.albany.edu/sourcebook/).
8. See NRA RTC fact sheet (within www.nraila.org/Issues/Filter.aspx?ID=003).
9. See FBI, Crime in the United States 2004 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius) for state crime statistics.
10. See NRA-ILA Compendium of State Firearms Laws (www.nraila.org/media/misc/compendium.htm). Also, note that in October 2005, federal legislation prohibiting such lawsuits was signed into law.
11. Federal "assault weapon" ban: Roth, Koper, et al., Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, March 13, 1997 (www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=406797); Reedy and Koper, "Impact of handgun types on gun assault outcomes: a comparison of gun assaults involving semiautomatic pistols and revolvers," Injury Prevention 2003, (http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/9/2/151); Koper et al., Report to the National Institute of Justice, An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003, June 2004 (http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/jl...aw_final.pdf); Wm. J. Krouse, Congressional Research Service Report for Congress, "Semiautomatic Assault Weapons Ban," Dec. 16, 2004. "Gun control," generally: Library of Congress, Report for Congress: Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998, LL98-3, 97-2010; Task Force on Community Preventive Service, "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws," Morbidity and Mortaility Weekly Report, Oct. 3, 2003 (www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm); National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005 (http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/index.html).
12. Note 9 and BJS (http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/). See also FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel...stat101705.htm).
13. Note 10. Condensed at www.nraila.org, click on "Research," then "Crime Statistics."
14. Note 12.
15. BJS (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/press/cv04pr.htm).


http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactShe...ad.aspx?ID=126

[wmbwinn]

more efforts to educate the ignorant masses:

http://www.nraila.org//Issues/FactSh...ad.aspx?ID=158

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

you should quit speaking of things you know nothing about. Do some research. The various gun bans including assault weapon bans all allowed for a "grandfather clause" that stated that all previously imported/produced/owned weapons that existed prior to the ban are legal. Thus, it is common language in the gun industry to speak of a weapon as "pre-ban" or "post-ban" based on its production/importation date.

Besides, the "assault weapons" bans have all been easy to circumvent quite legally. The last (now expired) ban described the weapons and made certain characteristics illegal. The companies just removed the "objectionable" characteristics and kept on selling the ARs, AK47s, M14s, FALs, etc., etc.

All you had to do to have an "assault weapon" (the name assault weapon is funny and inaccurate because no military uses these "assault weapons" as they are semi automatic and the military weapons are fully automatic) is to remove the following features:
-magazine larger than 10 round capacity
-pistol grip
-threaded barrel end (or you can just weld the suppressor on the end of the threaded barrel which makes it legal as well)
-grenade launcher and grenade launcher attachment
-knife (bayonet, bayonet lug)
-barrel of a minimum length
-overall gun length of a certain length
-etc.

Anyway, the last ban was a joke. The guns kept flowing.

Anyway, every ban/restriction ever put in place included a "grandfather clause"

allowing for "banned" weapons to be commercialy traded doesn't qualify as a ban at all does it?

iow if a product can be sold, there wouldn't be too much of a constriction of supply to the demand.

you better hope for a real ban with teeth to it for your "investment" to produce a return.

the gun merchants appreciate your business.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

allowing for "banned" weapons to be commercialy traded doesn't qualify as a ban at all does it?

iow if a product can be sold, there wouldn't be too much of a constriction of supply to the demand.

you better hope for a real ban with teeth to it for your "investment" to produce a return.

the gun merchants appreciate your business.

you continue to demonstrate your complete ignorance. Let me give you a few examples to make it simple for you.

The Israeli Military Industries (IMI) exported to the USA in 1989 the Hadar II. It was a "Sporting Firearm" based on the highly effective IMI Galil (a military weapon). It was altered in several ways to satify the US laws to have it qualifed as a "Sporting Firearm". It had a small 5 round magazine, a heavier wood stock with no pistol grip, no threaded barrel, and no bayonet (knife) attachment, and no grenade launcher attachment.

The Feinstein Ban was legislated and it listed several COMPANIES that could no longer import guns to the USA. IMI was on the Ban list because IMI also makes the Uzi.

So, the Hadar II was only imported into the USA in 1989 (one year only). The gun sold for around 700 dollars back then.

Once the ban was in place, the gun now sells for about 2300 dollars. The demand for the gun remains high enough to push the low availability to drive the price up.

The Hadar II imported in 1989 is a completely legal gun and can be traded/sold in the USA with no restriction (at least no restriction other than the usual laws that govern all gun sales). IMI simply cannot import more of them. IMI can import the parts for the gun so long as they don't import the receiver (the central piece of the gun). US companies can make receivers that are clones of the IMI receiver. Section 922r of the NFA laws states that a gun can be assembled from an imported parts kit so long as no more than ten parts in the gun are imported. So, you can use ten IMI parts and find the other parts made in the USA and legally assemble the gun.

The Galil itself is another lesson for you. The Galil is Israeli's recreation of the famous AK47. The Galil is perhaps the premier class of AK47 inspired weapons in the world. There are a few equally impressive AK47 inspired weapons and which one is "best" is a matter of opinion.

Anyway, the Galil is made by IMI. The civilian versions of the Galil that were exported by Israel to the USA before 1989 are completely legal guns (they are "pre ban" in regard to the Feinstein ban) and can be bought/sold/traded with no restrictions other than the usual restrictions in play for all weapons. The civilian versions of the Galil differ from the military Galil in that:
1)not fully automatic
2)no grenade launcher

Anyway, if you have an original 100% IMI Galil imported into the USA before 1989, then you have a gun that routinely trades for 3K to 4.5K; they previously sold for around 1000 dollars when they arrived in the states...

Anyway, there are a few examples for you to ponder.

The guns that are already here which guns arrived legally remain legal and can be traded legally. When new supplies of new guns are banned, then the guns already here double or triple in value.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

you continue to demonstrate your complete ignorance. Let me give you a few examples to make it simple for you.

The Israeli Military Industries (IMI) exported to the USA in 1989 the Hadar II. It was a "Sporting Firearm" based on the highly effective IMI Galil (a military weapon). It was altered in several ways to satify the US laws to have it qualifed as a "Sporting Firearm". It had a small 5 round magazine, a heavier wood stock with no pistol grip, no threaded barrel, and no bayonet (knife) attachment, and no grenade launcher attachment.

The Feinstein Ban was legislated and it listed several COMPANIES that could no longer import guns to the USA. IMI was on the Ban list because IMI also makes the Uzi.

So, the Hadar II was only imported into the USA in 1989 (one year only). The gun sold for around 700 dollars back then.

Once the ban was in place, the gun now sells for about 2300 dollars. The demand for the gun remains high enough to push the low availability to drive the price up.

The Hadar II imported in 1989 is a completely legal gun and can be traded/sold in the USA with no restriction (at least no restriction other than the usual laws that govern all gun sales). IMI simply cannot import more of them. IMI can import the parts for the gun so long as they don't import the receiver (the central piece of the gun). US companies can make receivers that are clones of the IMI receiver. Section 922r of the NFA laws states that a gun can be assembled from an imported parts kit so long as no more than ten parts in the gun are imported. So, you can use ten IMI parts and find the other parts made in the USA and legally assemble the gun.

The Galil itself is another lesson for you. The Galil is Israeli's recreation of the famous AK47. The Galil is perhaps the premier class of AK47 inspired weapons in the world. There are a few equally impressive AK47 inspired weapons and which one is "best" is a matter of opinion.

Anyway, the Galil is made by IMI. The civilian versions of the Galil that were exported by Israel to the USA before 1989 are completely legal guns (they are "pre ban" in regard to the Feinstein ban) and can be bought/sold/traded with no restrictions other than the usual restrictions in play for all weapons. The civilian versions of the Galil differ from the military Galil in that:
1)not fully automatic
2)no grenade launcher

Anyway, if you have an original 100% IMI Galil imported into the USA before 1989, then you have a gun that routinely trades for 3K to 4.5K; they previously sold for around 1000 dollars when they arrived in the states...

Anyway, there are a few examples for you to ponder.

The guns that are already here which guns arrived legally remain legal and can be traded legally. When new supplies of new guns are banned, then the guns already here double or triple in value.

no, "ignorance" is believing that buying all this ammo and guns because of an expectation that it will be "banned' is a profitable investment.

oe there is the "ignorance" that is driving all these purchases of guns and ammos based on the belief that there is some draconian new regs coming down.

but keep it up, the gun merchants enjoy the boom in business.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

great, keep up the spending, it helps the economy.

Great point you just summed up your view of economics.