The Obama Gun Effect

[wmbwinn]

Riots in Greece:

"Critics say that the government has lost control over the tactical management of the crisis, with radical anarchists burning shops, cars, banks and even government buildings, including the Hellenic Parliament Foundation and the Foreign Ministry's diplomatic academy. Some 320 stores, 50 banks and a number of civilian buildings have been damaged or destroyed in Athens, with another 100 stores in the northern city of Thessaloniki targeted. There have also been outbreaks of violence in several small cities and on the island of Corfu.


In Athens' Syntagma square, just across from Parliament, protesters set ablaze the large Christmas tree. Today, more clashes took place in the square and the surrounding streets as police used tear gas to break up a large group of protestors throwing rocks at the Parliament building. Later in the afternoon clashes resumed in downtown Athens with youth groups barricaded in the Athens Polytechnic School, near the Exarchia district, setting up roadblocks outside the School, burning cars and bus stops."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008120...08599186532600

Now, what would happen in Texas if people were throwing rocks and setting fires across the cities and landscape?

Answer: The armed citizens of Texas would prevent the sort of situation Greece is seeing.

Discussion: An armed populace is the best guarantee of peace. A police squad and military system cannot maintain peace and cannot take care of you.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Discussion: An armed populace is the best guarantee of peace. A police squad and military system cannot maintain peace and cannot take care of you.

If I wanted/needed a gun, I could have one by noon tomorrow. Whether it would be legal for me to own/use that gun would not be a concern of mine, if we are talking about a militia state.

What exactly is your point?

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If I wanted/needed a gun, I could have one by noon tomorrow. Whether it would be legal for me to own/use that gun would not be a concern of mine, if we are talking about a militia state.

What exactly is your point?

Most of you that argue with me about guns want gun control. You want these guns to not be available. If you had what most of you want, then you could not just go get the gun when you wanted it...

British citizens are at risk of the same problems Greece is seeing. They have had their guns taken away and destroyed. They literally have no access to the guns and cannot "have one by noon tomorrow"

[wmbwinn]

TIJUANA, Mexico (Reuters) – Gunmen are deliberately killing innocent people with random shootings at bars, restaurants and shopping malls in the city of Tijuana in a new scare tactic that takes Mexico's drug war to new depths.

Hit squads have killed at least 50 people, including around 10 children, since October in an escalation of violence in public places that security officials say is akin to terrorism.

The indiscriminate attacks, including shootings in cinemas, pool halls and restaurants, appear to be an attempt by the weakened Arellano Felix cartel to show security forces and rival gangs that it is still a force despite setbacks.

In one recent attack, gunmen in body armor and armed with assault rifles stormed into Tijuana's popular Crazy Banana pool hall and opened fire on customers, killing four men and a woman.

"We were playing pool and these masked men came in shouting and started firing at everyone," said day laborer Juan Miguel at the scene, wiping blood from his head after the attack

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081209/...s_mexico_drugs

The above example is a lot closer to you there in Texas. Those killings have occurred in New Mexico and Arizona also...

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Riots in Greece:



http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008120...08599186532600

Now, what would happen in Texas if people were throwing rocks and setting fires across the cities and landscape?

Answer: The armed citizens of Texas would prevent the sort of situation Greece is seeing.

Discussion: An armed populace is the best guarantee of peace. A police squad and military system cannot maintain peace and cannot take care of you.

oh my....

do you REALLY think that adding random guns to the situation in Athens would DIFUSE the situation?

OR that a bunch of yahoos charging in willy nilly with guns but without any sort of coordination would be the solution?


wow.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

oh my....

do you REALLY think that adding random guns to the situation in Athens would DIFUSE the situation?

OR that a bunch of yahoos charging in willy nilly with guns but without any sort of coordination would be the solution?


wow.

The Greek military and police certainly are unable to handle this. So, what is your "enlightened solution"

The answer is simple. You are responsible to protect yourself.

Break into my business to loot and steal. Get shot by the owner.
Break into my house to rob, harm, etc. Get shot by the owner.
Harm my neighbor or neighbor's business. Get shot by the neighbor.

It is places like Greece and France where riots can break out (recall the Islamic riots earlier in France) and the populace is unarmed and unable to defend themselves. Every time, the police and military fail.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

The Greek military and police certainly are unable to handle this. So, what is your "enlightened solution"

The answer is simple. You are responsible to protect yourself.

Break into my business to loot and steal. Get shot by the owner.
Break into my house to rob, harm, etc. Get shot by the owner.
Harm my neighbor or neighbor's business. Get shot by the neighbor.

It is places like Greece and France where riots can break out (recall the Islamic riots earlier in France) and the populace is unarmed and unable to defend themselves. Every time, the police and military fail.

The problem, wmb, that I have with your logic is that I don't see how it has anything to do with the laws. If I'm a business owner or a homeowner, I can put a gun in my business or home no matter what the law says. I can get my hands on a gun, I can protect myself. What, do I need the government to tell me it's OKAY to have a weapon in my business or my home? Not me, baby.

What I want is for the bad guys to NOT have guns. Consider the harsh gun laws in NYC, as we have learned about thanks to the Plaxico Burress incident. Carry a loaded weapon illegaly, and it's three years in the can, no questions asked. That's the sort of harsh punishment that is going to make fools think twice about carrying around loaded guns. Use a gun in a crime? VERY harsh penalties. Again, makes fools think twice.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The problem, wmb, that I have with your logic is that I don't see how it has anything to do with the laws. If I'm a business owner or a homeowner, I can put a gun in my business or home no matter what the law says. I can get my hands on a gun, I can protect myself. What, do I need the government to tell me it's OKAY to have a weapon in my business or my home? Not me, baby.

What I want is for the bad guys to NOT have guns. Consider the harsh gun laws in NYC, as we have learned about thanks to the Plaxico Burress incident. Carry a loaded weapon illegaly, and it's three years in the can, no questions asked. That's the sort of harsh punishment that is going to make fools think twice about carrying around loaded guns. Use a gun in a crime? VERY harsh penalties. Again, makes fools think twice.

Nothing but double speak in your logic.

How do you have access to a gun to put in your home or business and restrict gun ownership away from "bad guys"?

You (and many others) maintain this utopian idea that we can somehow
1)allow guns to those who should have them
2)deny guns to those who should not have them

We do the best we can to meet those ideals but it is not possible. The best we can do is have a background check at the point of purchase. That is done. We could improve the database that the FBI has access to but that is sticky and goes through issues of privacy and civil rights.

It is not possible to prevent "bad guys" from getting guns. "Bad guys" or criminals have no regard for the law and are not going to be therefore affected by laws. Criminals will obtain guns one way or another (it is easy) without going through a background check. A criminal can steal the gun. A criminal can buy the gun at a garage sale or otherwise buy a gun from a private citizen who is not a dealer or seller of weapons. There is no law that prevents that. You can find guns advertised in estate sales. You can find them in the "greensheet" type fliers/ads. Criminals can bring them across borders.

So, Chum, it is impossible to have your ideals. But, we strive for those ideals.

So, the next progression is to eliminate guns. That is what Britain, Greece, and many other Western nations have done. And, by doing so, they have reduced their citizens to unarmed peasants who cannot protect themselves.

[wmbwinn]

What I want is for the bad guys to NOT have guns. Consider the harsh gun laws in NYC, as we have learned about thanks to the Plaxico Burress incident. Carry a loaded weapon illegaly, and it's three years in the can, no questions asked. That's the sort of harsh punishment that is going to make fools think twice about carrying around loaded guns. Use a gun in a crime? VERY harsh penalties. Again, makes fools think twice.

Now, we're talking good logic.

The NRA is all in favor of harsher punishment for crimes committed with guns. You are absolutely right on this point.

NYC has seen a dramatic reduction in crime. Chicago should follow suit as should other "trouble" spots in the nation.

Now, take the logic further.

These other factors need to be adjusted to be harsh in punishment:
1)the penalty (or range of penalties) for a crime with a gun are established in law set forth by state legislatures. These should be more harsh and severe.

2)The Judge/Jury system decides where in the above range of punishment to establish punishment after determining guilt. Nothing here to change.

3)Prison systems allow for shortened sentences or reduced punishments for good behavior and other issues. This should be eliminated. The prison system should not have the authority to essentially over ride the State Congress and Judicial/Jury system. If the laws established by a State Congress allow such power to the Prison/Corrections system, then those laws should be re-written specifically to disallow such for crimes committed with a gun.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Now, we're talking good logic.

The NRA is all in favor of harsher punishment for crimes committed with guns. You are absolutely right on this point.

NYC has seen a dramatic reduction in crime. Chicago should follow suit as should other "trouble" spots in the nation.

Now, take the logic further.

These other factors need to be adjusted to be harsh in punishment:
1)the penalty (or range of penalties) for a crime with a gun are established in law set forth by state legislatures. These should be more harsh and severe.

2)The Judge/Jury system decides where in the above range of punishment to establish punishment after determining guilt. Nothing here to change.

3)Prison systems allow for shortened sentences or reduced punishments for good behavior and other issues. This should be eliminated. The prison system should not have the authority to essentially over ride the State Congress and Judicial/Jury system. If the laws established by a State Congress allow such power to the Prison/Corrections system, then those laws should be re-written specifically to disallow such for crimes committed with a gun.

I agree with this: that there should be a punishment for the crime --then additional add on "IF" a gun was used, or you were impaired by alcohol or drugs.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

...

The NRA is all in favor of harsher punishment for crimes committed with guns.
....

Really?

Can you show me something to support this assertion? any instance of this?