Mavs @ Spurs - Page 10 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 04-06-2002, 10:38 PM

What's complicated?

Nothing on my end...But, you've really missed my point and your also the only one still arguing with me. In the last 20 games, obviously not counting today's, Fin is shooting over 50% from the field and almost 40% from down-town.

Dirk, otoh, is shooting 48% from the field but an impressive 50% from down-town.

So, Finley has one bad shooting game and he's accused of this and that and costing us the game and so on and so on. Freezing out Dirk, not passing the ball, etc...And you've somehow missed the posts where I pointed out Fin's questionable 3's and bad shooting 2nd half. But, you've noticed my posts about Dirk's mistakes.

You damn right Im going to question Dirk if he leaves Ferry open for an open 3. How many times have our guards been blasted for the same thing? It has to go both ways and you've completed overlooked that just like my posts where I questioned Finley.

MavsFanFinley · 04-06-2002, 10:43 PM

If dirk would have taken 4 more fg attempts, he would have probably made a couple of them.

That's the thing. Everyone assumes he'd make them. Given his record of shooting, I'd have to agree with it too. But, that's a lot of what if'ing, imo.

However, it's always if Dirk had this, if Dirk had that, he'd make the world go round. We'd never lose.

Dirk is the #1 scoring option, but I guess it's the Mavs against Dirk in our little world. Cause Nelson freezes him out. Finley freezes him out. NVE does the same thing. Hell, even Nash does it. It's a wonder Dirk gets to take a shot.

Bayliss · 04-06-2002, 10:44 PM

<< You damn right Im going to question Dirk if he leaves Ferry open for an open 3. How many times have our guards been blasted for the same thing? It has to go both ways and you've completed overlooked that just like my posts where I questioned Finley. >>

And had they gone to Dirk in the low post against Ferry then Ferry wouldn't even be on the court the last 2 minutes. He would've fouled out. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

The thing about that 3. Dirk challenged the shot. Just like he challenged the Duncan shot on the last play of the game.

Drbio · 04-06-2002, 10:44 PM

I can't believe we are debating Dirk vs Finley. This is stupid. The Mavs are our team. It's why we are here. How about Duncan vs Dirk, Rose vs. Finley, etc?

Bayliss · 04-06-2002, 10:47 PM

<< Duncan vs Dirk, >>

They both showed why they are All-NBA. of course Pop realized it and went to Duncan more. Nellie didn't and went to Dirk less. The Mavs lost. Not really a surprise.

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 10:49 PM

<< If dirk would have taken 4 more fg attempts, he would have probably made a couple of them.

That's the thing. Everyone assumes he'd make them. Given his record of shooting, I'd have to agree with it too. But, that's a lot of what if'ing, imo.

However, it's always if Dirk had this, if Dirk had that, he'd make the world go round. We'd never lose.

Dirk is the #1 scoring option, but I guess it's the Mavs against Dirk in our little world. Cause Nelson freezes him out. Finley freezes him out. NVE does the same thing. Hell, even Nash does it. It's a wonder Dirk gets to take a shot. >>

Actually, finley takes more fg attempts per game than dirk. Even though dirk shoots a higher fg percentage, 3 point percentage, 2 point percentage, averages around 3.5 more points per game, has a higher points per shot, and gets to the line more than finley. It's just kind of funny that dirk doesn't take most shots on the team, even though finley scores about 3.5 less points per game. And your sarcasm isn't needed.

Drbio · 04-06-2002, 10:51 PM

Bayliss- I agree

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 10:53 PM

<< What's complicated?

Nothing on my end...But, you've really missed my point and your also the only one still arguing with me. In the last 20 games, obviously not counting today's, Fin is shooting over 50% from the field and almost 40% from down-town.

Dirk, otoh, is shooting 48% from the field but an impressive 50% from down-town.

So, Finley has one bad shooting game and he's accused of this and that and costing us the game and so on and so on. Freezing out Dirk, not passing the ball, etc...And you've somehow missed the posts where I pointed out Fin's questionable 3's and bad shooting 2nd half. But, you've noticed my posts about Dirk's mistakes.

You damn right Im going to question Dirk if he leaves Ferry open for an open 3. How many times have our guards been blasted for the same thing? It has to go both ways and you've completed overlooked that just like my posts where I questioned Finley. >>

Actually you don't point out that finley was burned by bruce bowen on a few occasions. And you also called one of dirk's shots, a piss poor shot. But you refer to finley's ridiculous shots, as questionable shots. You are biased toward finley. I'm not going to argue anymore.

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 10:58 PM

I'm not bashing finley. I think he has played well for about the last month. I did say he played terrible in the second half, and he did. I think finley is a great player. I'm not in a very good mood right now, since the mavs lost to the spurs, so i apolgize if I got you mad, mavsfanfinley.

MavsFanFinley · 04-06-2002, 11:03 PM

Dirk 47.5% fg

Fin 46.6% fg

Difference, .9

And you keep saying how Dirk shoots WAY better than Finley. From down-town you have a point 40% (Dirk) to Fin's 33%. From the charity line, it's pretty close too, 85% for Dirk to Fin's 83%.

But, overall, I don't think you have the argument you'd like to think you do since Dirk doesn't miss and Fin only clanks his shots.

Yet, we're talking a .9 difference.

Bookit · 04-06-2002, 11:08 PM

Bottom line is that the Mavs needed Finley to step up in the second half and he didn't. Stop making it a Finley vs. Dirk thing. NVE stepped up in the second half. So did Dirk. Steve was sick. Finley flopped.

MFFL · 04-06-2002, 11:09 PM

<< And your sarcasm isn't needed. >>

PeterVecseyisdumb - I'm suprised that MFF has been as nice as she has to you. You've repeatedly attacked her on the Finley subject for no apparent reason. So what that she likes Fin better than Dirk. Occasionally she will point out when Dirk makes a bad play - I think of it as balancing out the karma a little. When Dirk has a bad game (and several come to mind) everyone gives him a break. When Fin has a decent game and we lose, the long knives come out.

Believe it or not - Finley did not lose the game for us tonight. Nellie did.

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 11:16 PM

<< Dirk 47.5% fg

Fin 46.6% fg

Difference, .9

And you keep saying how Dirk shoots WAY better than Finley. From down-town you have a point 40% (Dirk) to Fin's 33%. From the charity line, it's pretty close too, 85% for Dirk to Fin's 83%.

But, overall, I don't think you have the argument you'd like to think you do since Dirk doesn't miss and Fin only clanks his shots.

Yet, we're talking a .9 difference. >>

Dirk shoots a lot more threes than finley does. So yes, their fg percentage is different by about .9, but that doesn't take into account that dirk shoots a lot more threes than finley. Dirk's 2 point percentage is higher than finley's, and his 3 point per percentage is higher than finley's. Dirk is much better at getting to the line. Dirk's points per shot is much higher than finley's.
To be honest, finley isn't the main reason dirk doesn't get enough shots. Actually nash, seems to shoot a lot more, ever since finley was injured and nash took more shots. It doesn't seem like nash has adjusted since finley returned. Nash doesn't seem to look to pass as much now, as he did, before finley was injured. The main reason dirk doesn't get to shoot enough, is because nellie doesn't call enough plays for him, and doesn't run the offense through dirk.
I am in a bad mood right now, because the mavs lost to the spurs. And because I had a feeling that dirk would be frozen out of the offense in the 2nd half. Then when it happened, I wasn't shocked, because it seems to happen all the time now. However, finley wasn't the main reason that dirk was frozen out of the offense in the second half. Bad coaching was the main reason dirk didn't get the ball in the second half. Nellie didn't call plays for dirk and didn't try to pass the ball to dirk.
I apologize, mavsfanfinley, if I offended you tonight. I am just mad the mavs lost the game.

MFFL · 04-06-2002, 11:17 PM

<< Finley flopped. >>

Finley was the third best player on our team tonight. Dirk was the best. NVE was 2nd best. Finley was 3rd.

Lets break it down.

Buckner 18 min 2 reb 0 pts
LaFrentz 25 min 2 reb 4 pts
Nash 18 min 2 ast 0 pts
Finley 47 min 9 reb (4 offensive) 18 pts
Najera 17 min 0 reb 0 pts
Johnson 23 min 3 ast 9 pts (1-4 from the free throw line)
Eschmeyer 1 min 0 reb 0 pts
Zhi Zhi 7 min 0 reb 0 pts

So why are ya'll trying to put the goat horns on Finley?

Bayliss · 04-06-2002, 11:18 PM

<< Believe it or not - Finley did not lose the game for us tonight. Nellie did. >>

Oh I firmly believe it. Fin shot some questionable shots (the 3's stick to me) but his play is not what **cost** us the game. His play hurt our chances of winning. When Finley doesn't perform well it hurts the Mavs chances of winning **any** ball game. The refs hurt our chances of winning too.

BUT what COST us the game is the philosophy: "we have a number 1 optiion and we have a a great player. hell the worst matchup in the league next to Shaq yet I want to save him... let's keep him **our** litle secret so no one knows about him... and instead of using the 2nd hardest matchup in the league... let's run plays for (fill in the friggin' blank)"

That is what COST us the game.

MFFL · 04-06-2002, 11:19 PM

bayliss - I LIKE your sig [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 11:22 PM

<<

<< And your sarcasm isn't needed. >>

PeterVecseyisdumb - I'm suprised that MFF has been as nice as she has to you. You've repeatedly attacked her on the Finley subject for no apparent reason. So what that she likes Fin better than Dirk. Occasionally she will point out when Dirk makes a bad play - I think of it as balancing out the karma a little. When Dirk has a bad game (and several come to mind) everyone gives him a break. When Fin has a decent game and we lose, the long knives come out.

Believe it or not - Finley did not lose the game for us tonight. Nellie did. >>

I agree completely. I have just read some of my posts, and i can see why i may have sounded like a jerk tonight. I apologize to everyone, and i apologize to mavsfanfinley. I am just in a bad mood. I guess seeing the mavs lose two games in a row to san antonio for basically the same reason made me upset. Finley did not cost the mavs the game. I want to make that clear. Yes, he played bad in the 2nd half, but that wasn't why the mavs lost. Finley played well in the first half. Bad coaching is the main reason the mavs lost.

Drbio · 04-06-2002, 11:23 PM

The officiating didn't hurt. Even the Spurs fans saw it. That's pretty bad.

MFFL · 04-06-2002, 11:23 PM

PeterVecseyisdumb - it's cool. It's just that MMF is one of the GOOD guys (err girls... err chicks... err women - HELL I'm in trouble now!).

Bayliss · 04-06-2002, 11:28 PM

<< bayliss - I LIKE your sig >>

Yeah.

And one day the Mavs are going to come out in a SA game and not get down by 10 points in the first quarter. It's hard to beat the Spurs constantly fighting that uphill battle.

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 11:30 PM

<<

<< Finley flopped. >>

Finley was the third best player on our team tonight. Dirk was the best. NVE was 2nd best. Finley was 3rd.

Lets break it down.

Buckner 18 min 2 reb 0 pts
LaFrentz 25 min 2 reb 4 pts
Nash 18 min 2 ast 0 pts
Finley 47 min 9 reb (4 offensive) 18 pts
Najera 17 min 0 reb 0 pts
Johnson 23 min 3 ast 9 pts (1-4 from the free throw line)
Eschmeyer 1 min 0 reb 0 pts
Zhi Zhi 7 min 0 reb 0 pts

So why are ya'll trying to put the goat horns on Finley? >>

I was never trying to put the goat horns on finley. Although by reading my posts again, I can see why it may look like that. I assume I have sounded like a jerk in here tonight. Of course, I'm mad about the game. I feel bad now. I know I shouldn't have acted so rude in here. I just know this was a really big game for dallas. I also had a feeling dallas wouldn't run the offense through dirk in the 2nd half. Oh well, it's just a game. Thanks for reminding me. Once again, i'm sorry if i offended anyone.

Lvubun1 · 04-06-2002, 11:30 PM

Their is obviously some "homers" that like a certain player more then others, that's not a problem. The problem is when people defect the blame off their player and put it on somebody else. Dirk fans blame Finley because he takes too many shots, Finley fans blame Dirk because Dirk fans blame Finley and they want to get back, Nash fans blame Van Exel, because they see him as some kind of threat so by bashing Nick it raises Nash, and everybody blames Raef. If this board was anything like the Mavs lockerroom we would be in major trouble. The blame pecking order goes as follows:

1. Raef - Somewhat deserved lately, I'm not completly sure if he is a upgrade from Howard yet, but we shall see in the playoffs. He does deserve a lot of the blame for todays loss

2. Van Exel- This has dropped a lot since the last Spurs game since he has been shooting over 50% the last 7 games, some people seemed to be pointing the finger at him tonight but if it wasn't for him the game would have been a blow-out, his +/- tonight was crazy. And I don't think anybody can say he isn't a upgrade from Timmy.

3. Finley - He was #1 before the trade but now since the Mavs have two new players they have bumped Mike down a little.

4. Nash - Today was probably the hardest I have seen a group come down on Nash, and it just so happens we he was still being affected by the flu. But he still does get somewhat of a pass, which I feel is deserved, you won't know that Nash avgs. more turnovers a game and has a lower assist/turnover ratio then Nick because for every 1 Nick turnover that is mentioned on the board their is 3 Nash turnovers not mentioned, same thing with the bad shots but I guess Nash somewhat has earned the right to commit turnovers and take bad shots on the Mavs

5. Anybody else but Dirk - Nellie, Najera, Bradley pretty much all fit into here.

6. Dirk - What?

PeterVecseyisdumb · 04-06-2002, 11:35 PM

<< PeterVecseyisdumb - it's cool. It's just that MMF is one of the GOOD guys (err girls... err chicks... err women - HELL I'm in trouble now!). >>

I know. I shouldn't have made it sound like I was so mad at finley. Finley is one of my favorite players. And he did resign this summer, which was great for the mavs.

Kat · 04-07-2002, 12:35 AM

<< Playoff basketball is all about finding your horse and riding him in the snow to the title. Nellie has a horse. Hell, the horse is a FRICKIN' Clydesdale. Instead Nellie wants to hitch his team up to the Shetland Pony. >>

Point made. Bayliss hit it on the head. Why continue to beat it up?

MavsFanFinley · 04-07-2002, 01:41 AM

I accept your apology petervecseyisdumb.

I just get irritated that Fin is the scapegoat for most cases when we lose. It's either he shot too much, didn't shoot enough, didn't play defense, didn't rebound, didn't assist, shot poorly, missed ft's, was foul prone or whatever.

I admit, he sucked in the 2nd half, couldn't hit a 3-pointer, couldn't make the easy layup, the little jumper, whatever. I just don't think that's the reason we lost.

We came out ugly and played uphill from the start. Whether Nash is still battling the flu is a non-factor imo. He shouldn't have started or tried to play if he was that bad.

The refs took us out of the game early too. All you have to do is look at the ft differences. Dirk, Fin, NVE, AJ all drove to the basket and barely could get a call.

As long as Nelson has our guys double down on Duncan every time, it's always going to be hard to recover on their man or have someone else switch over. The Spurs will drill those 3's every time.

I just don't see Dirk--necessarily--frozen out of the 4th quarter in today's game. NVE was hitting more shots than not and was a big reason we closed the gap. Throw in a couple missed shots by Fin and a couple missed shots by NVE and even a Dirk miss all took away from him.

Nelson did the right thing and gave him the last shot, which he made. There was nothing else we could do about Duncan and the last shot.

MFFL, I think, was the one that pointed out if we made more of our ft's we might have one the game too.

It is a frustrating loss and makes you want to hit something. I just get uptight when people always point to Fin and his errors as the reason for the loss. And that's what I felt you (and a few others) were doing and I reacted.

Now, we just need to move on.

***************

It still amazes me that they took 26 more free throw attempts.

Smiles · 04-07-2002, 03:15 AM

<< Playoff basketball is all about finding your horse and riding him in the snow to the title. Nellie has a horse. Hell, the horse is a FRICKIN' Clydesdale. Instead Nellie wants to hitch his team up to the Shetland Pony. >>

My jaw hit the ground on this one. I love this signature. Is this a quote from you?? I thought my roommate and I had the copyright on this idea. We would determine what horses our guy friends reminded us of.

ArcticBlast · 04-07-2002, 03:15 AM

Reading these posts, (not all of them, I admit, but enough) something sticks out to me.

Are we Mavs fans or are we an assorted bunch of Pro-[insert player's name here] and Anti-[insert player's name here]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just everyone in general. So, please, don't think I'm attacking you, but this has been bothering me for a while now...

To the bashers of each of the following players:

Finley - First and foremost, I'll say that I'm not a huge Finley fan. Not to say I don't like him, it's just that his style doesn't really agree with what I like to watch. BUT, I will NEVER deny that he does not go out there and play his heart out whether he's missing the shots or making them. He's one of those guys that when he's making the shots, you just stay quiet because you're expecting as much out of him. If he's missing the same shots because he's a little off that night or whatever, you're talking about how terrible he did in this or that quarter or half or game. Really. Try to be a little less finicky.

Nash - This astounds me. The guy has the stomach flu. His games going to be off. You play against the Spurs with the stomach flu and see how well you do. Should he have gone out there to see if he could manage? The game may as well have been a playoff game in its intensity and, in some people's views, it's importance. I think that he should be commended for trying.

The new guys - They aren't used to the Mavericks yet. Raef is working hard. I watched him for nearly two hours before the game. He was out there practicing the entire time he was able (some mini-cheerleaders needed the floor for about 15 minutes). He was practicing one of his 3-point shots and missing nearly every one, but he was keeping at it, though he was getting frustrated with himself. When Nick first got here, he seemed to pass more, but the thing is, when he makes one of those great passes that Nash can make (well, almost as great) and they don't connect because the other Mavs aren't on the same wavelength as he is yet. And besides, he's been playing for the Denver Nuggets for most of this year. He's used to being the be all, end all of the team. He doesn't need to be that anymore and he's adjusting. Finley had to adjust when he wasn't the be all, end all for his team, give Nick time. I'm hoping we keep him, personally.

Nellie - So, he's not a player, but he get's as much bashing as the others. And I don't mind critisizing of him, or anyone one else. Crit and bashing are two different things. The man apparently knows what he's doing, considering his record. (no titles yet, but he's on his way there) I question him often. I do. And I think I should, this board is for discussion. But really. If you're not in the locker room and you're not at the practices and you're not in the bus on the way there and you're not in the huddle on the sidelines and you're not in his head, you really don't know what he's doing. I seriously doubt he goes about his days trying to find a way to get Dirk to score less.

Nowitzki - You're obviously on the same drugs the officials were on tonight.

Again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, so don't take it personally. It's something that's been building up from several boards for several months and this is the only board I post on ^.^

Razor · 04-07-2002, 03:57 AM

What a great game tonight. It doesnt bother me that SA beat us 3 times this year because I know that I am cheering for the right team. You ask me how I know its the right team.... Because SA wont have Duncan next year!! Mavs-World Champs 2003!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Less Bash/More Love

MFFL · 04-07-2002, 09:39 AM

Duncan's contract extends to the end of next year.

Bookit · 04-07-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote from NVE "This is the second time we play them and they go to the line twice as many times as us, it's ridiculous," Van Exel said. "We shoot too many jump shots."

At least somebody on this team knows what is going on.

Bayliss · 04-07-2002, 10:37 AM

<< Quote from NVE "This is the second time we play them and they go to the line twice as many times as us, it's ridiculous," Van Exel said. "We shoot too many jump shots." >>

Then either

a) drive straight to the basket like AJ did on the pick and roll
b) post Dirk up when the mismatch is created off the pick and roll

Not a hard concept...

Drbio · 04-07-2002, 02:42 PM

PeterVecseyisdumb - it's cool. It's just that MMF is one of the GOOD guys (err girls... err chicks... err women - HELL I'm in trouble now!).

MFFL- first smiles now MFF....you are walking a thin line....LOL[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

grbh · 04-07-2002, 03:17 PM

Now I want to preface this by saying, yes I would like Dirk to take a couple more shots a game.

That said, Finley really does not take more shots a game than Fin. To get a true number on how many shots a player takes a game you have to consider free throws. Obviously most of the free throws taken, are a result of fouls made on shots. That puts the numbers at:

Dirk: 20.3
Fin 19.3

Now you probably need to take about 1 shot away from each as a result of fouls made when the shot is made, and other fouls which occur in the bonus. Still I suspect Dirk actually takes close to one more shot a game than Fin. I would like him to maybe take about 2 more a game, but that is for another debate.

Drbio · 04-07-2002, 06:21 PM

Quote from NVE "This is the second time we play them and they go to the line twice as many times as us, it's ridiculous," Van Exel said. "We shoot too many jump shots."

Music to my ears. I agree with Bayliss' post a couple up. Drive everyone that can and post up Dirk on mismatches like last night when Ferry was on him.

Razor- Duncan is signed for another year. Sorry to burst that thought.

Murphy3 · 04-08-2002, 12:56 PM

The fact is that Dirk does more with the shots he gets than almost any player in the NBA that takes a similar amount of shots.

Would the mavs actually be better with less scoring options with focusing more on getting the ball to dirk? this is debateable.

Does a team need 5 significant scoring options on the court at all times or does this limit what they get from their #1 scoring option.

Do you want a team that has 5 offensive threats on the court but 1 main go to guy? or do you want the shots to just go to whoever happens to feel like putting it up?

I personally feel that the mavs have 4 and sometimes 5 great scoring options. However, I also feel that 1 player is the best scoring option on the team by a decent margin. I also believe that he is probably one of the top 2-5 most difficult guys to match up with in the NBA. It is my belief that he isn't utilized correctly during key stretches of games..

can anyone justify why Dirk didn't get a touch a touch in the 4th quarter within the three point line until there was less than 5 minutes left?..
the offense looked horrible early in the 4th but dirk couldn't get a touch in any type of scoring position..

why was this?..i have no idea. It was not from being guarded closely.. or from not being open.
some of it had to do with players not getting him the ball... more of it had to do with Nellie not posting dirk up against Danny freaking Ferry.

it doesn't make sense