Nuggets @ Mavs GDT 12/15/2008 7:30pm CST - Page 10 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

eyedentifyme · 12-16-2008, 04:38 AM

We got to start beating some playoff teams at some point. I thought Green and Williams deserved more minutes tonight against the likes of Anthony and Smith.

nowhereman · 12-16-2008, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Our record against teams above .500 this season is 5-8, which is certainly not good, but not the 0-10 or whatever abomination that was last season. If you take out the horrendous 2-7 start, that record improves to 3-3.

Honestly, there's no reason whatsoever to go back to last season, which is what you're doing. It was a different coach and a different team.

Is this against teams that are NOW over .500, or were over .500 when we faced them? And I'd be inclined to not put a lot of stock in the Yao-less rockets or the early struggling spurs wins. That leaves us with a squeaker over Atlanta by 2 at home, an overtime win against a pretty marginal knicks team, and pretty much what I'd consider the only "quality" win of the season in a blowout against Phoenix.. barely a playoff team themselves (that lost by 17 to chicago and 15 to miami earlier this year).

Let's call a spade a spade. This team has roosted on bottom feeders but hasn't really gotten the job done against the big dogs yet this year. They've been close, but I think pulling out one of the LA wins or the second SA game, hell even one of the Denver games, would make us breathe a lot easier.

I know you say it's a different team, but given that our most important players are holdovers from last year I think we can definitely notice at least a trend. Remember 3/8 to 3/16 where we won 5 straight games by at least 19 against losing teams? The talent as assembled seems really good at tearing apart bad teams and really bad at closing out against good teams.

LonghornDub · 12-16-2008, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Is this against teams that are NOW over .500, or were over .500 when we faced them? And I'd be inclined to not put a lot of stock in the Yao-less rockets or the early struggling spurs wins. That leaves us with a squeaker over Atlanta by 2 at home, an overtime win against a pretty marginal knicks team, and pretty much what I'd consider the only "quality" win of the season in a blowout against Phoenix.. barely a playoff team themselves (that lost by 17 to chicago and 15 to miami earlier this year).

Let's call a spade a spade. This team has roosted on bottom feeders but hasn't really gotten the job done against the big dogs yet this year. They've been close, but I think pulling out one of the LA wins or the second SA game, hell even one of the Denver games, would make us breathe a lot easier.

I know you say it's a different team, but given that our most important players are holdovers from last year I think we can definitely notice at least a trend. Remember 3/8 to 3/16 where we won 5 straight games by at least 19 against losing teams? The talent as assembled seems really good at tearing apart bad teams and really bad at closing out against good teams.

I'm not "saying" it's a different team. It is a different team. How you can argue that a team with a different coach playing a completely different offensive style isn't "different" is mind-boggling.

And my count only included teams that are currently .500. Why shouldn't the Yao-less Rockets count? We didn't have Howard. Fair's fair. If we're allowed to exclude actual results on a whim, then I could sure make my argument a lot stronger--let's not count the loss tonight, because Howard wasn't back in his groove; let's not count the loss to the Spurs, because Howard didn't play; let's not count the loss to the Lakers, because Howard didn't play.

Sorry, but you can't just exclude the games that don't suit your position. The Mavs are 5-8 on the year against teams currently above .500.

cinemablend · 12-16-2008, 05:15 AM

Kidd was beyond horrible tonight. This may have been his worst game of the year.

Not only could he not score, but he was completely ineffective in every other aspect of the game as well.

If you want to point to one specific thing as the reason for this loss, point to him.

He wasn't making defensive plays, he wasn't making good passes... all the stuff that Kidd usually does to help Dirk and Terry get good shots he was unable to do tonight, and that's why every basket was like pulling teeth. There were no easy baskets because Kidd wasn't creating them.

cinemablend · 12-16-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

The Mavs need Howard healthy so bad. Barea is getting exposed big time the last couple of games.

Huh? How? He was the only Mav scoring in the 1st, later in the game he was the only guy getting them open looks by driving and dishing... and the numbers say the Mavs are better defensively when he's on the floor.

So in what way is he being "exposed" ? Ok he had a bad shooting night. He's a young player who isn't used to getting this much playing time. That's going to happen. As for the bad shooting night... hey so did everyone else on the team... and that includes Dirk even though his final points total looks good.

He was much more effective than Kidd. Maybe Kidd is being "exposed".

You're knee jerking dude. People have been circling like vultures looking for any excuse to blame all of the team's ills on Barea and resume screaming for a 6'5" swingman which everyone seems to think will magically fix this team.

cinemablend · 12-16-2008, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

So I think, what is wrong w/ the Mavs? I feel it is the lack of a slashing playmaker in the halfcourt, which is why our offense is 13th in efficiency and as we can see, and saw a great example tonight, stagnates often in the halfcourt.

Kidd has done very little in the halfcourt. I remember the first game Kidd played began w/ an alleey oop to J-Ho... we NEVER see that... we never see backdoor cuts either... once in a blue moon

Which is EXACTLY why they've looked so good when Barea is playing his ass off. Barea is, even at his worst, a better playmaker in the half court than any other player on the team.

Kidd on the other hand is completely useless in the halfcourt.

Actually he's completely useless in the offense unless they're running the floor or he's grabbing a rebound. Tonight he wasn't even able to do that.

It's irritating that we're moaning about needing a playmaker when that's exactly what Kidd was brought in for, but the guy really has absolutely nothing in the half court offense, except to stand around and hope he's wide WIDE open to hit a three if someone passes him the ball.

It's doubly irritating because Kidd is so great in other facets of the game, particularly on the defensive end. But in a half court offense he is no better than Devean George.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-16-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemablend

Which is EXACTLY why they've looked so good when Barea is playing his ass off. Barea is, even at his worst, a better playmaker in the half court than any other player on the team.

Kidd on the other hand is completely useless in the halfcourt.

Actually he's completely useless in the offense unless they're running the floor or he's grabbing a rebound. Tonight he wasn't even able to do that.

It's irritating that we're moaning about needing a playmaker when that's exactly what Kidd was brought in for, but the guy really has absolutely nothing in the half court offense, except to stand around and hope he's wide WIDE open to hit a three if someone passes him the ball.

It's doubly irritating because Kidd is so great in other facets of the game, particularly on the defensive end. But in a half court offense he is no better than Devean George.

Blame part of this on Carlisle who refuses to play young athletes like Green and Wright to utilize some fast-breaks with Kidd. Kidd needs players who are going to run the floor and finish around the rim.

I do want to see Kidd drive and dish more though. Not really sure what is stopping him from doing that.

planaria · 12-16-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

This is awful. Weren't the Nuggets known in recent years for giving up 120 a game? God we look bad tonight.

They used to be, but now they´re the 5th best team in defense rating:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2009.html

alby · 12-16-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Kidd didn't have a good game at all. He looked tired and wasn't as crisp on his defensive assignments. 0-5 doesn't help either.

Once again Damp has a big night when we lose. He loves doing that.

I'm not gonna freak out over this loss ,but a trade is still necessary IMO.

I agree. Jason played horribly.
However, the big reason for this is because the ball is being taken out of his hands. He has been moved to the 2-guard spot and I don't like it one bit. Barea is a great talent, but we should only use the little dude in spurts where he can be instant energy off the bench. Playing him 30+ minutes at PG with Jason Kidd on your team? I don't like that one bit. Let's get back to our defined roles please, Howard is back now so we can have a set rotation.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I agree. Jason played horribly.
However, the big reason for this is because the ball is being taken out of his hands. He has been moved to the 2-guard spot and I don't like it one bit. Barea is a great talent, but we should only use the little dude in spurts where he can be instant energy off the bench. Playing him 30+ minutes at PG with Jason Kidd on your team? I don't like that one bit. Let's get back to our defined roles please, Howard is back now so we can have a set rotation.

Is Howard back? I saw him for a few mins, but it seems like it is gonna take some time before he is really back. IMO the last thing we need now is him getting hurt again because he has not fully healed.

Also I'm not all that worried about the loss. We are not full strength and something wasn't right from the start last night. Jet has cooled off considerably, I think he is off the runway right now, maybe in getting a detail or oil change. He needs to come on with it before Dirk has to have another talk with him about consistency.

Kidd needs to come on too, he could be MUCH more aggressive offensively and attack the bucket. That is the main thing that puzzles me about him, seeing JJB do it makes me wonder why Kidd rarely does. When he does he's is pretty successful.

jthig32 · 12-16-2008, 09:43 AM

Like KG, I don't understand why Barea is still starting. I think this is my biggest problem Carlisle so far. He's very flexible, and he likes to ride what's working. But he rides it too long. Barea stepped in and played great while Wright was out. Great. But when Wright came back healthy he should have gone back into the starting lineup.

I don't like the approach of "well it's working so I'm going to ride it until it stops working". That's not as bad as never trying something in the first place, but it's not good. Real foresight is thinking of an idea, having it work, and then knowing when it's time to go with something else.

Just put Wright in the starting lineup and let's roll. I still maintain that this team does not need to be trying to find a SG that's going to play 35 minutes a game, unless it's the caliber of shooting guard that is going to replace Jet. Mike Miller is not that guy. My biggest wish right now is offensive swing man to come off the bench.

kg_veteran · 12-16-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Like KG, I don't understand why Barea is still starting. I think this is my biggest problem Carlisle so far. He's very flexible, and he likes to ride what's working. But he rides it too long. Barea stepped in and played great while Wright was out. Great. But when Wright came back healthy he should have gone back into the starting lineup.

He has definitely ridden it too long. I think Barea has established that he can contribute off the bench. I can understand relying on him when you have to do so. But when you don't?

Quote:

Just put Wright in the starting lineup and let's roll. I still maintain that this team does not need to be trying to find a SG that's going to play 35 minutes a game, unless it's the caliber of shooting guard that is going to replace Jet. Mike Miller is not that guy. My biggest wish right now is offensive swing man to come off the bench.

Until/unless a trade is made, I think this is the only viable option.

Dampier/Diop 40 - Bass 8
Nowitzki 36 - Bass 12
Howard 36 - Williams 12
Wright 18 - Terry 30
Kidd 34 - Barea 14

Something along those lines is going to be your best option. But no more Barea at SG. And no more Barea/Kidd/Terry lineups. (Yes, I acknowledge that lineup had some effectiveness, but I deny that it is a serious solution for a team trying to make a playoff run.)

IMO, the only likely way to find a starting SG better than JET is to trade Josh Howard. At that point, though, you're still starting Wright (or Williams or George) at SF.

Start Antoine Wright and let's roll. I'm with you, jthig.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 11:39 AM

Im not sure what the hell is going on behind closed doors at practice but from the outside looking in, I don't understand why Green isn't getting any time at all. It's frustrating kinda, he seems to have a pure stroke and is obviously the most athletic guy on our team he must have lost all confidence and messing up in practice. With us being so short handed (no offense JJB) I don't get why he hasn't played at all.

alby · 12-16-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Dampier/Diop 40 - Bass 8
Nowitzki 36 - Bass 12
Howard 36 - Williams 12
Wright 18 - Terry 30
Kidd 34 - Barea 14

I'm with this 100%

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 12:01 PM

Anyone have the postgame comments from Carlisle, or know whereI can find it? I heard an audio clip of it on the ticket and it was pretty funny, some good analogies!

kg_veteran · 12-16-2008, 12:09 PM

Dallas Mavericks Head Coach Rick Carlisle

On the game…

“Yes, our undoing was the first quarter when we got beat by 12 and then basically after that, we, I guess we beat them two out of the last three quarters. Again, it speaks to the importance of good starts and not playing from behind and all the things I have talked a lot about. They were shooting a very high percentage the majority of the game, we brought it down in the second half, but you know offensively, we couldn’t hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle either. When you are not guarding them and when you are not making shots, you are going to suck. We made a great a great run in the third quarter to get it tied and then I forget what happened, but we had a swing play there and they hit a three and we were just never able to get the momentum back. But, you know, they are good and we needed to be good tonight too and we just weren’t. We just weren’t good enough.”

Losing to San Antonio and Denver, can you get a feel for where this team is at…

“I don’t know, I haven’t analyzed it that much. We felt that this game was important and this would have made it a very successful stretch of games. 5-2, again with four of those games being one possession ball busters, I mean, hey, you know, it is nothing to dismiss. It is significant, but we got to get the sixth game somehow, whether it is the game or San Antonio it is the one that kills you. Now we got to go on the road and we got to regroup and these games on the road are going to be hard games as well.”

On Josh Howard…

“All things considered, I thought he did well out there. It’s difficult, there’s no way he can have any kind of rhythm. But you know, he knocked down a three and made four free throws and he looked sound. So, those are all good things and we again, have to build on that and get him back to where he needs to be in our starting line-up. We will know more about him tomorrow and even more Wednesday. Since he went to the boot, he has progressed much better. So, you know, hopefully this will stay gone and hopefully we can build from there.”

Mavs guard Jason Terry

(What problems did Denver give you guys tonight?) – “It was a disappointing loss. We didn’t handle their switches well. It’s something that you have to be prepared for and we just didn’t handle it very well especially in the first and fourth quarters. We didn’t have the energy early that we needed and that’s on the players. We’ve got to look at ourselves first. We’re the ones out there in the action trying to make it happen. Give Denver credit, they’re a good team and we’ll see them again.”

(You and Dirk have really been carrying the offensive load this home stand) – “The offensive end is not the problem. The offense is not where we are going to win the game, it’s defensively and all of us to a fault didn’t get it done on the defensive end tonight. We weren’t physical enough tonight with them and didn’t match their aggressiveness.”

(Nice to see Josh Howard back on the court tonight?) – “That was the one positive that came out of tonight was seeing him back out on the floor. Hopefully his ankle holds up and he’s healthy so we can move forward and be at full strength.”

Mavs forward Brandon Bass

“We’ve just got to start the game off aggressive and attack them. We were on our heels all night.”

“Josh (Howard) is a big part of this team and it’s exciting to see him back on the court.”

(Dirk and Jet started out slow tonight offensively) – “Our offense has been running through Dirk and Jet and when they’re struggling the other guys have to pick it up not only on the offensive end but really on the defensive end. Hopefully we’ll get it all together on this road trip.”

Opponent Quotes

Denver Head Coach George Karl

(Talk about what the strategy was entering the 4th quarter…) – “Pass the ball. Our offense was one-on-one and power basketball [in the 3rd]. The second unit was great. The second unit came in ran a little bit, had some open shots, J.R. [Smith] was good, L.K. [Kleiza] made a big three. I don’t think you want to play power basketball against them [Dallas]. We’re much quicker. It just seemed like we were holding the ball and whatever they wanted to do on ‘Melo [Anthony] they did – they doubled, they zoned up. Our offense I thought was the major problem in the third quarter.”

(Can you talk about Billups outplaying Kidd?) – “Well, Chauncey continues to be very good - his efficiency and his effectiveness. I thought the game was more of an East Coast game than I probably would’ve liked. But defensively we were pretty strong all night long. Kenyon [Martin] was good on Dirk except for about a seven to eight minute stretch where Dirk got going. I don’t you can except anybody to stop Dirk for a whole game.”

(Anthony did well in the first half, what was Dallas doing in the second half to keep him from scoring a lot?) – “I didn’t think we got the open shots. Instead of posting he was popping. And it seemed like Devean George was physical with him and we weren’t getting the whistle very well. I think not only ‘Melo, but I thought Chauncey forced some shots in that stretch. I thought our offensive confidence went out the window a little bit, fortunately the second unit got it back for us.”

(Talk about the Mavs having troubling getting good looks from three with their shorter guards vs. your longer players…) – “I think Barea is an interesting player. Early in the game and throughout early in the second half he got loose on us and we got caught giving up the three ball. I think as the quarter went on and we decided to let Barea try to score against our big a little bit more we covered the three ball a little bit better. But you know, I’m sure when Howard gets back they’ll be a little different team but right now they give Barea a lot of touches. We saw that on film but even in this game I thought they went away from Jason [Kidd] and gave Barea the ball a little bit more often. I was a little surprised by it.”

Denver Guard Chauncey Billups

(On holding the Mavs to a season low FG%) “Yeah that was our main focus coming in. George felt like in the Golden State game, our defensive intensity slipped a little bit because we had a lead. We knew coming in here that this team is as good as an offensive team as you’ll find, and so us being locked in and tuned into the game plan was important. So we came out and was able to contest all their shots and they missed some, luckily, for us.”

(On the battle with Jason Kidd tonight) “It’s never really a personal battle with Jason and myself. We’re kind of similar in the fact that he does exactly what he needs to do to try and get a win. Sometimes he scores more, sometimes not, and we’re both kind of old school type of point guard that’s just trying to win a game. I love competing against him. I’ve always looked up to him but tonight our team came out on top.”

(On if they would have won without their defense) “No, not at all. We came into halftime feeling good, and I knew they would make a run at some point. I didn’t know which quarter it would be. I just told guys not to overreact to their runs because they’re going to make one. Don’t get out of character and start doing crazy stuff. Just try and keep doing what we’ve been doing to sustain it. When they get done with their run let’s just be ready to keep going. That’s exactly how the game panned out.”

***

I thought Karl's comments about Barea were an interesting perspective from an opposing coach, and they seem to echo some of the sentiments expressed here.

Underdog · 12-16-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Calisle: "They were shooting a very high percentage the majority of the game, we brought it down in the second half, but you know offensively, we couldn’t hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle either. When you are not guarding them and when you are not making shots, you are going to suck."

Colorful...

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 12:19 PM

[QUOTE=kg_veteran;942466]Dallas Mavericks Head Coach Rick Carlisle

On the game…

“Yes, our undoing was the first quarter when we got beat by 12 and then basically after that, we, I guess we beat them two out of the last three quarters. Again, it speaks to the importance of good starts and not playing from behind and all the things I have talked a lot about. They were shooting a very high percentage the majority of the game, we brought it down in the second half, but you know offensively, we couldn’t hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle either. When you are not guarding them and when you are not making shots, you are going to suck. We made a great a great run in the third quarter to get it tied and then I forget what happened, but we had a swing play there and they hit a three and we were just never able to get the momentum back. But, you know, they are good and we needed to be good tonight too and we just weren’t. We just weren’t good enough.”

QUOTE]

Never heard that one. Good stuff

Flacolaco · 12-16-2008, 12:23 PM

lol ok. A little more respect for Carlisle for that.

Couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle...good one. And he's right too. They shot in the 30's last night right? percentage-wise? Awful.

nowhereman · 12-16-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not "saying" it's a different team. It is a different team. How you can argue that a team with a different coach playing a completely different offensive style isn't "different" is mind-boggling.

And my count only included teams that are currently .500. Why shouldn't the Yao-less Rockets count? We didn't have Howard. Fair's fair. If we're allowed to exclude actual results on a whim, then I could sure make my argument a lot stronger--let's not count the loss tonight, because Howard wasn't back in his groove; let's not count the loss to the Spurs, because Howard didn't play; let's not count the loss to the Lakers, because Howard didn't play.

Sorry, but you can't just exclude the games that don't suit your position. The Mavs are 5-8 on the year against teams currently above .500.

okay, duly noted on Josh, but there's still 3 things:

1. I think that there's still enough major pieces in play from last season, and I think closing out big games in this league is largely affected by swagger. I think it's uncanny how many close wins we used to have, and how many close losses we had last year and now still have. I don't mean to quibble, and sure, it is a different team, but the problem that affected the old team might still seem to be affecting this new one.

2. 5-8 is still not great. I would like to see this team pull one out against a major player, playing well. We almost had it the other night against San Antonio. We almost had it last night. I'm not saying it can't happen. I am just... anxious, is all.

3. Why were we both up at 5 a.m.?

ty · 12-16-2008, 02:35 PM

When are we going to win a big game?

ghazi · 12-16-2008, 02:46 PM

30-27 since the Kidd trade. Ugh.

Dirk seems like he works very hard for his points now and days... I thought the Kidd trade was supposed to mitigate that!

The Mavs are still a low assist team... I thought the Kidd trade was supposed to mitigate that?

I'm not a Kidd hater, but it is what it is .... 30-27 since the Kidd trade... I know there are variables such as Avery, Dirk missing games , adjustments (that the Lakers didn't seem to have w/ Pau Gasol, Nuggets didn't seem to have w/ Chauncy...)etc.... but 30-27 is so f'ng mediocre.

rabbitproof · 12-16-2008, 02:55 PM

nuke it.

Kidd Karma · 12-16-2008, 03:12 PM

Kidd has to penetrate in the half court, get the defense chasing the ball. Draw an extra defender, then find the open guy. JHo has to move without the ball, not catch, rock, pound and jack a 20 footer. Catch and finish.

Kidd has 2 of the best catch and finishers in the game in JHo and Dirk, problem is Kidd is still giving up the rock 30 feet from the bucket and sitting in the corner. Now that Barea, can do that Kidd has backed away from driving to the cup in the half court. JHo in Barea out. Give kidd that true back up someone that can go out there 15-20 a night, give Kidd the feeling that he can go balls to the wall for the 30-34 he's destined to play.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Kidd has to penetrate in the half court, get the defense chasing the ball. Draw an extra defender, then find the open guy. JHo has to move without the ball, not catch, rock, pound and jack a 20 footer. Catch and finish.

Kidd has 2 of the best catch and finishers in the game in JHo and Dirk, problem is Kidd is still giving up the rock 30 feet from the bucket and sitting in the corner. Now that Barea, can do that Kidd has backed away from driving to the cup in the half court. JHo in Barea out. Give kidd that true back up someone that can go out there 15-20 a night, give Kidd the feeling that he can go balls to the wall for the 30-34 he's destined to play.

Won't matter, I just don't think he has the ability anymore to do that consistently. I'm not sure Dirk and Jho are among two of te best catch and finishers in the game. Dirk is if you are talking spot up shooting!

I agree with Nuke it if the alternative is to eek in at the 8 seed, miss the lotto, and face the Lakers who would obliterate us. We should know pretty soon, about a month what direction we should head.

fluid.forty.one · 12-16-2008, 03:29 PM

wow, Dirk and Terry had the worst +/- for the team.