Official: Tim Thomas to Dallas - A part of me dies inside. - Page 11 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sike · 07-29-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

...It helps, but a defensive big man on the floor would help more.

Obviously that defensive big man has to be effective given the matchup. Damp is not a defensive big man against Denver, he's a statue. I'm certainly not arguing that Damp is the answer against power forwards playing center.

I would disgree with your distinction. (by the by, turning a joke into a serious sports comment is bad form, thiggy) I would say that Damp is ONLY a defensive big man and that his title doesn't change upon his effectiveness in a given match up. Would anyone say Dirk is only a great scorer when he scores greatly?

Damp is just a "limited defensive big man"...one's who's limitations I was mocking in my original joke to you.

So of course Camby, (a very good mobile big) is better for this team than Gooden. Was that really your point? Because I doubt anyone would argue that.

Let me ask you this question: Against Denver would you rather have a line of Kidd/Howard/Marion/Dirk/Hollins or Kidd/Howard/Marion/Dirk/Gooden?

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I would disgree with your distinction. (by the by, turning a joke into a serious sports comment is poor bad form, thiggy) I would say that Damp is ONLY a defensive big man and that his title doesn't change upon his effectiveness in a given match up. Would anyone say Dirk is only a great scorer when he scores greatly?

Damp is just a "limited defensive big man"...one's who's limitations I was mocking in my original joke to you.

So of course Camby, (a very good mobile big) is better for this team than Gooden. Was that really your point? Because I doubt anyone would argue that.

Let me ask you this question: Against Denver would you rather have a line of Kidd/Howard/Marion/Dirk/Hollins or Kidd/Howard/Marion/Dirk/Gooden?

I wasn't saying HIS title changes so much as I was saying he doesn't count as a defensive solution if he can't actually play defense in that matchup. My point is that I would prefer someone who CAN play defense in that matchup over someone who can't (Damp) or someone else who can't (Gooden). Gooden would have helped against Denver. There is no doubt. Kurt Thomas or Joe Smith (imo and perhaps no one else's) would have helped more.

And again, I wasn't even speaking on specific names at that time. I was simply making the observation that rebounding is great, but it doesn't completely cover up not being able to play defense. That's all I was saying.

And I would prefer the latter given those choices. Give me Jet instead of Gooden if I get to pick from the current roster though.

Oh and when I'm in debate mode, enter at your own risk. You dipped your toe in the water for a joke but you left a kernal of debate in your post. I am biologically programmed to pounce. Sorry. Out of my control.

sike · 07-29-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

And I would prefer the latter given those choices.

good to hear you haven't lost it completely.

Quote:

Give me Jet instead of Gooden if I get to pick from the current roster though.

I agree...but that wasn't the question.

sike · 07-29-2009, 05:16 PM

Against Denver I wouldn't mind Dirk/Marion playing a good deal of 4/5.

But despite his limitations, I do think Gooden will stay with Nene better than Damp.

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Against Denver I wouldn't mind Dirk/Marion playing a good deal of 4/5.

But despite his limitations, I do think Gooden will stay with Nene better than Damp.

I think you'll see a good bit of Dirk/Marion against everyone.

And you'll certainly get no argument from me on the last point.

Windmill360 · 07-29-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think you'll see a good bit of Dirk/Marion against everyone..

I certainly hope so!

chumdawg · 07-29-2009, 05:31 PM

I'm not sure why you have taken this line of argument. Rebound and defense are certainly not mutually exclusive. In fact, quite the opposite. Rebounding is a component of defense. And as you know, it does not one bit of good to force a bad shot if your team doesn't get the ball back.

grndmstr_c · 07-29-2009, 05:38 PM

jthig's argument is perfectly valid. The ability to control the defensive boards is of no value whatsoever if your opponent never misses a shot. The Mavs have set themselves up well to limit extended possessions for their opponents, but they've still got to make sure that they can keep the number of clean first looks their opponents get under control. Nothing in Gooden's history as a player suggests that he's going to provide significant help in that area.

chumdawg · 07-29-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

...they've still got to make sure that they can keep the number of clean first looks their opponents get under control. Nothing in Gooden's history as a player suggests that he's going to provide significant help in that area.

Let me be sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that Gooden's man will routinely score against him in the post, or are you saying that Gooden will be of little help when guards penetrate?

sike · 07-29-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

jthig's argument is perfectly valid. The ability to control the defensive boards is of no value whatsoever if your opponent never misses a shot. The Mavs have set themselves up well to limit extended possessions for their opponents, but they've still got to make sure that they can keep the number of clean first looks their opponents get under control. Nothing in Gooden's history as a player suggests that he's going to provide significant help in that area.

One thing that we might be failing to mention is that the upgrade of Marion to the line up will alter the significance of the hit of Damp being out of the middle.

I'd say with serious confidence that a line up of Kidd/Howard/Marion/Dirk/Gooden is still a better defensive 5 than Kidd/JT/Howard/Dirk/Damp.

edit: But Kidd/JT/JHO/Marion/Dirk is the worst of the bunch at the defensive end.

mavsfan4lyfe201 · 07-29-2009, 06:10 PM

i agree sike..i like gooden at the 5, he provides some offense at that position..

it feels like its been 10 years since weve had a center that had some offensive game

anyways i personally wanted von wafer, but that is highly unlikely now

i was always a tim thomas hater, so now im hoping hell fit in well and drain some 3's for us

i guess we wont be seein him blow kisses at dirk (at least not this year)

that was all about bein competitive anyway..dirk clearly won that battle droppin 50 clinchin a trip to the finals

this is the last move til we use the buck shot, whats everyone thinkin we get with that?

rumor is its gonna be a SG....im hoping for a C personally.. SG is more likely, though

grndmstr_c · 07-29-2009, 06:15 PM

I'm not concerned about Gooden's ability to guard his own man; he won't handle some guys as well as Damp, but he'll probably handle at least a few better than Damp, and I don't have a hard time imagining that he might prove to be a consistent upgrade in pick and roll coverage. But as the last line of defense, as the guy who guards the lane, the absolute best we can hope for is that he's no worse than Bass.

Sike, Re: the idea that the team's other acquisitions (Marion, Ross when he gets minutes, perhaps even Booby later in the season, and Josh's ankle) may reduce the need for a defensive force in the middle, I think that's probably correct. I don't think the value of shot-blocking at the center position can ever be fully compensated for, though.

Sportstudi · 07-29-2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

No.

No no no no no no no no no.

No no no no no...no no no.

We've got to draw a line somewhere. Holy freaking crap, no. He's useless. He is completely useless, and Dirk hates him. Either one of those reasons should be enough to say N O.

This. Just pure truth.

Sportstudi · 07-29-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Like I posted in the other thread, it's not like the mere presence of Drew Gooden or Tim Thomas on this roster is going to hurt. And neither of them can suck more than Devean George.

Frankly speaking, that's almost impossible.

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm not sure why you have taken this line of argument. Rebound and defense are certainly not mutually exclusive. In fact, quite the opposite. Rebounding is a component of defense.

Which I pointed out here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It is a stop, in the sense that the first baseman catching a throw from an infielder is an out.

But both of them are the second part of a two step process. And if your fielders keep letting the ball go through their legs then having a kick ass first baseman doesn't mean a whole lot.....

All I'm saying is this focus on rebounding is not going to completely mask not having a defensive big man on the floor. KG was talking about this earlier in the thread as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

And as you know, it does not one bit of good to force a bad shot if your team doesn't get the ball back.

Which I agree with here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

There's no doubt rebounding helps. If you get every defensive rebound then you help your defense.

I'm not really sure what point you're making.

EricaLubarsky · 07-29-2009, 06:38 PM

I think Gooden comes down to +/- and net PER. combine those stats and you get a nice picture of what he's up to. He doesnt need to be super defensively-- just needs to outproduce his counterpart while not completely damaging our team defense (thus looking at +/- as well as net PER).

I think he'll fair well as he can be at least an average defender while providing us a lot more offensive versatility.

If we had a great shot blocker, we'd lose out a lot on the net team defense, but the fact is that we don't so we wont lose much on team defense, while he will certainly help keep teams honest defensively, increasing our offensive productivity that much more. I hate when teams can cheat off damp to double team in the mid post-- In my estimation only about 2% of the time 1) the player got it to damp open and 2) Damp caught it and finished it.

I also like Gooden's speed out there. Speed/finesse is the name of the game in the west for centers now. Theres no real power game out there with any legitimacy other than Pau, who is a freak of nature with a combo power/finesse game, size and strength. (Oden/Bynum would be the only other guys Id consider power players and they are both raw and or perma-injured). Even if Gooden is an average or subpar defender, I like him on most centers just because he can actually keep up. Theres no use in having a good post defender when every center in the league just runs circles around him.

Do I want a Kaman/Camby/Chandler? Heck yes. I also tend to think in their absence Gooden as center has more positives than negatives over Dampier

chumdawg · 07-29-2009, 06:39 PM

The point I am trying to make is that I think you are underestimating the effect that rebounding prowess has on defensive performance. It is not always the "second part of a two-part process," like a first baseman catching a put-out. Sometimes it is, sure. But those aren't the times we are talking about when we are talking about being a "good rebounding team." We're talking about contested rebounds that you win rather than lose...and that's a one-step process, something tantamount to a steal.

Anyway, I'm just saying that rebounding is a very important of basketball, and its importance should not be underestimated, overlooked, or diminished.

Incidentally, a lot of blocked shots end up back in the offense's hands, and those aren't even "kinda like" a stop...they aren't a stop at all.

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The point I am trying to make is that I think you are underestimating the effect that rebounding prowess has on defensive performance. It is not always the "second part of a two-part process," like a first baseman catching a put-out. Sometimes it is, sure. But those aren't the times we are talking about when we are talking about being a "good rebounding team." We're talking about contested rebounds that you win rather than lose...and that's a one-step process, something tantamount to a steal.

Anyway, I'm just saying that rebounding is a very important of basketball, and its importance should not be underestimated, overlooked, or diminished.

Incidentally, a lot of blocked shots end up back in the offense's hands, and those aren't even "kinda like" a stop...they aren't a stop at all.

I'm not understating it in any way. I think at times Bass' lack of rebounding ability hurt us worse last year than his lack of defensive ability.

And it is always a two step process, just like a first baseman. If they don't miss, there is no rebound. That's all I'm saying.

EricaLubarsky · 07-29-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Incidentally, a lot of blocked shots end up back in the offense's hands, and those aren't even "kinda like" a stop...they aren't a stop at all.

Good point-- you are right, securing rebounds=possessions, and missed shots happen dozens of times a game versus the chance for a true steal. You do first need to force a miss for a defensive rebound to be possible, though...

The thing about blocks though is that the blocks dont matter as much as the presence. Blocks can come back to the original team and sometimes even pop out to someone in a hole in our defense making it worse, but having a shotblocker automatically reduces the FG% in the paint because for every block, there are many other shots that are altered. It also gives the team a second opportunity to alter/contest a shot if the defender gets past their man (which happens much more often after the NBA changed their rules on fouls on the drive)

In that way, blocks are way overrated, but having a shotblocker can never be overrated because of its net effect on a team.

Usually Lurkin · 07-29-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

In that way, blocks are way overrated, but having a shotblocker can never be overrated because of its net effect on a team.

Shawn Bradley notwithstanding. Bradley was a real shotblocker, but it always seemed that players got excited when he was around and actually drove the lane more. (I wonder if there's stats on that). It always led me to dream of the days that we could get an actually intimidating shotblocker, who would deter people from bringing the ball into the lane, rather than drawing them in. I think we got the effect for a while when Diop and Damp were playing well. Maybe Gooden's beard will keep them away.

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Shawn Bradley notwithstanding. Bradley was a real shotblocker, but it always seemed that players got excited when he was around and actually drove the lane more. (I wonder if there's stats on that). It always led me to dream of the days that we could get an actually intimidating shotblocker, who would deter people from bringing the ball into the lane, rather than drawing them in. I think we got the effect for a while when Diop and Damp were playing well. Maybe Gooden's beard will keep them away.

Or Tim Thomas' douchiness.

Bayliss · 07-29-2009, 07:30 PM

Here's my take on the SOB:

I can't stand him. I hate him right down to the core. He is the epitome of what is wrong with the NBA. But with that said, if the dude hits some shots to wipe the the smug look off the Lakers or Nuggets than I'll be singing his praises.

(Same with Gooden too.)

jthig32 · 07-29-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Here's my take on the SOB:

I can't stand him. I hate him right down to the core. He is the epitome of what is wrong with the NBA. But with that said, if the dude hits some shots to wipe the the smug look off the Lakers or Nuggets than I'll be singing his praises.

(Same with Gooden too.)

I can live with this.

However, if he gets smarmy with an opposing team's superstart only to see that superstar drop 50 on his butt...well, I'll be bumping these threads left and right.

Bayliss · 07-29-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

I can live with this.

However, if he gets smarmy with an opposing team's superstart only to see that superstar drop 50 on his butt...well, I'll be bumping these threads left and right.

And if I was Mark Cuban and he did that I would cut his @ss immediately. Sure I'd have to eat his contract but so what? Give him his walking papers that night and he would never play for the Mavs again.

Not the wisest business decision but I bet Cuban loses a mil at the blackjack tables on a weekend....

mavsfan4lyfe201 · 07-29-2009, 08:09 PM

thomas is that guy you just hate, cause he seems like a cocky douche who hits 3's..but hes really not good enough to be so cocky..

almost like matt barnes, i hate them both.

but now thomas is a mav, so as long as he drains some 3's and is a solid bench player..ill live with it ya kno?

craggmac · 07-29-2009, 08:13 PM

Our rebounding is going to be superior. I'm super excited to have a center that can actually score a few freakin' put-backs under the goal every once in a while.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-29-2009, 08:18 PM

Since Thomas will just be coming off the bench for a minimum number of minutes and can knock down a few three's I'm okay with this signing. Besides which once a player puts on the Mavs blue or green they have 100% of my support.

Thomas86 · 07-29-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

Since Thomas will just be coming off the bench for a minimum number of minutes and can knock down a few three's I'm okay with this signing. Besides which once a player puts on the Mavs blue or green they have 100% of my support.

WOW!!! you are the first person I seen on here say that.....just WoW!!!

Mavsfan4ever · 07-29-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas86

WOW!!! you are the first person I seen on here say that.....just WoW!!!

I know how homerish I seem saying that and this will make it even more so. With the bench we have put together all we need now is to add one piece to our starting five and we will have a championship caliber team.

quietsavant · 07-29-2009, 09:11 PM

Anyone aware of TheMaverick's whereabouts?? That dude's been MIA for a while now.

chumdawg · 07-29-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas86

WOW!!! you are the first person I seen on here say that.....just WoW!!!

Mavsfan4ever may have been the first to put it in those terms, but I don't think he is anywhere near the first person to feel that way. I can tell you that it is exactly how I feel, too.

I'll get mad at the front office if they *lose* a Maverick, to be sure. I hate losing one of our boys. But when they acquire a new one, I trust their instincts and look forward to watching the guy play...for us.

Hope springs eternal in this Mavs fan heart.

catsil · 07-29-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Okafor, Kaman, Camby, Chandler, what other names have you heard tossed around? You think Gooden's as good as them?

but really, its more like names MAVS FANS are tossing around, as if it is our right. You saw what it takes to get Okafor.. Chandler. And what it takes to get Chandler.. Okafor. The Mavs' pieces simply aren't as attractive as Okafor/Chandler.

Underdog · 07-29-2009, 09:46 PM

What the heck is this thread about??? I haven't been able to get past this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Watch it...I'll burn you too...I don't wanna, but that mouth of yours is begging for it!

Totally hot...

sike · 07-29-2009, 09:48 PM

I'm in favor of signing Zombie Wilt...that guy is a monster.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-29-2009, 09:52 PM

Was talking to a non Mavs fan and he had this to say about the Tim Thomas signing.

Tim Thomas isn't a superstar, but the guy can score and he's got range. He fits in with the Mavs perfectly. Mavs have really upgraded their roster, they should be making a serious run at the title.

chumdawg · 07-29-2009, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

Was talking to a non Mavs fan and he had this to say about the Tim Thomas signing.

Tim Thomas isn't a superstar, but the guy can score and he's got range. He fits in with the Mavs perfectly. Mavs have really upgraded their roster, they should be making a serious run at the title.

Which is probably another way of saying...I'd rather have a Tim Thomas and not need him than need a Tim Thomas and not have him.

SMC0007 · 07-29-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

Was talking to a non Mavs fan and he had this to say about the Tim Thomas signing.

Tim Thomas isn't a superstar, but the guy can score and he's got range. He fits in with the Mavs perfectly. Mavs have really upgraded their roster, they should be making a serious run at the title.

There's only one question then... Did you punch him directly in the face for not claiming to be a Mavs fan?

SMC0007 · 07-29-2009, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Which is probably another way of saying...I'd rather have a Tim Thomas and not need him than need a Tim Thomas and not have him.

Or like saying I like tranny's because there's always a lil something left (down there) to remember the good ol' days!

Mavsfan4ever · 07-29-2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

There's only one question then... Did you punch him directly in the face for not claiming to be a Mavs fan?

I would have if we had not been talking online.

StackAttack · 07-29-2009, 10:06 PM

I haven't read much of this thread so you guys could be going on complete tangents right now and I wouldn't know, but I guarantee Tim Thomas will not play enough minutes this season for his signing to warrant 11 pages of discussion.