damp traded for tyson chandler - Page 11 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grndmstr_c · 07-17-2010, 07:23 PM

I wasn't calling Iggy a superstar.

CadBane · 07-17-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

I thought the ? was who the better shooter is, that is clearly Caron, Iggy is a much better finisher at the rim though

How is he "clearly" a better shooter? Caron is a better mid-range shooter. Iggy is a better three-point shooter. Caron, on the whole, is a better shooter, but it's not by that much. Iggy's jumpshot fg% would raise quite a bit on a team like the Mavs. I don't think some of you realize the kind of coverage he sees on that shitty ass Philly team. The Wizards, while dysfunctional, were a supremely more talented offensive team.

*And FYI numbnuts, that WASN'T the original question. I said "neither is Caron", and another poster thought Caron is a great shooter, which he's not.

tcat075 · 07-17-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

How is he "clearly" a better shooter? Caron is a better mid-range shooter. Iggy is a better three-point shooter. Caron, on the whole, is a better shooter, but it's not by that much. Iggy's jumpshot fg% would raise quite a bit on a team like the Mavs. I don't think some of you realize the kind of coverage he sees on that shitty ass Philly team. The Wizards, while dysfunctional, were a supremely more talented offensive team.

*And FYI numbnuts, that WASN'T the original question. I said "neither is Caron", and another poster thought Caron is a great shooter, which he's not.

That part right there is very misleading. Butler is a much better mid range shooter than Butler (the stats are there if you want me to prove it). Iggy is a slightly better 3 point shooter than Butler over his career, going totally by statistics. Yes, I've read your previous posts, and yes, Igoudala does take more contested threes because he is the main option on the team. However, over the past three years, Butler is 32.0% from 3, while Iggy is 31.5%. At those percentages, especially when you look and see how good Butler and Iggy are at scoring other ways, those two are hurting the team every time they take a three pointer just because there are much more efficient ways for them to score. But Iggy, taking about 3 1/2 threes a game, hurts the team more than Butler, taking just under 2 a game.

So yes, Iggy is a "better" three point shooter, because he takes harder shots at a similar percentage. He is also more prolific, which in his case is not a good thing. So in the end, I'd call the three point shooting between the two a wash.

If you want to call Iggy slightly better, that's fine with me, but getting back to my main point, there is nothing similar about Iggy being slightly better at shooting treys while Butler is a lot better at shooting long/mid-range 2's. The way you said it made it sound similar, but its not at all.

Male30Dan · 07-17-2010, 09:42 PM

Neither are outstanding shooters, but I would wager that there are very few people here that would prefer Caron over Iggy at the 2. The thing that Iggy brings is very good defense, athleticism, attacking offense, handles, and passing. Overall, Iggy is the better player and he is several years younger with a brighter future. Passing up on any trade that sends Caron out for Iggy would be stupid in my opinion. To me, even stupid if it is because Brand accompanies him.

tcat075 · 07-17-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Neither are outstanding shooters, but I would wager that there are very few people here that would prefer Caron over Iggy at the 2. The thing that Iggy brings is very good defense, athleticism, attacking offense, handles, and passing. Overall, Iggy is the better player and he is several years younger with a brighter future. Passing up on any trade that sends Caron out for Iggy would be stupid in my opinion. To me, even stupid if it is because Brand accompanies him.

Yes.

grndmstr_c · 07-17-2010, 10:37 PM

I'd be exceedingly pissed off if the Mavs made a trade with Philly that both cost Dallas Caron and required them to take on Brand. That would be a colossal negotiating failure.

tcat075 · 07-17-2010, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'd be exceedingly pissed off if the Mavs made a trade with Philly that both cost Dallas Caron and required them to take on Brand. That would be a colossal negotiating failure.

It would be a failure because they can do better than that, not because of the talent exchange.

Male30Dan · 07-17-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'd be exceedingly pissed off if the Mavs made a trade with Philly that both cost Dallas Caron and required them to take on Brand. That would be a colossal negotiating failure.

You are crazy if you think Philly gives away their best player (and admittedly a horrible, horrible contract) for only something like Chandler, Stevenson, filler, and a TE. Plus I am still hoping the Granger deal goes down and one way or the other, Butler goes out for one of those two.

grndmstr_c · 07-18-2010, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

It would be a failure because they can do better than that, not because of the talent exchange.

You're leaving out an important detail in that analysis, namely the talent Dallas would have to send out in matching Brand's 16 million dollar contract. Chandler/Stevenson would work, but to be honest I think Chandler-for-Brand is probably no better than a push, i.e., the deal as a whole would be something short of a game-changing upgrade, and the amount of salary that Dallas was taking on would likely preclude them using their MLE for the next three years. Pretty much any other player combo would eliminate any chance of a talent win for Dallas as far as I'm concerned, and still be expensive as hell.

If I'm Cuban, Philly would have to bribe me with Iggy plus just about every cheap talented player on their roster to get me to even think about taking on Brand's contract.

grndmstr_c · 07-18-2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

You are crazy if you think Philly gives away their best player (and admittedly a horrible, horrible contract) for only something like Chandler, Stevenson, filler, and a TE. Plus I am still hoping the Granger deal goes down and one way or the other, Butler goes out for one of those two.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Either you've grossly misunderstood me, or you've grossly underestimated just how bad Brand's contract is (that is, you think Philly's owner and GM wouldn't both cut off their left nuts and send them along with Iggy in order to get that contract off their books for a package of expirings).

Underdog · 07-18-2010, 01:02 AM

If we were going to trade Butler/Chandler/Stevenson for Iggy/Brand, then we probably would have already traded DUST/Butler/Stevenson for Iggy/Brand instead of going after Chandler in the first place...

Male30Dan · 07-18-2010, 01:26 AM

These are deadline moves we are talking about Underdog - we didn't do the Damp equivalent due to no one wanting to make the trade now... As far as me misunderstanding you C - no, it has nothing to do with misunderstanding. I just completely disagree with you.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-18-2010, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

If we were going to trade Butler/Chandler/Stevenson for Iggy/Brand, then we probably would have already traded DUST/Butler/Stevenson for Iggy/Brand instead of going after Chandler in the first place...

+1

If Iggy were an A list star, then you could make a case to take on that ridiculous amount of money. The FO just isn't going to gobble up that kinda cash to get marginally better. It seems like they are intent on getting the dream Gasol-type trade.

grndmstr_c · 07-18-2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

These are deadline moves we are talking about Underdog - we didn't do the Damp equivalent due to no one wanting to make the trade now... As far as me misunderstanding you C - no, it has nothing to do with misunderstanding. I just completely disagree with you.

Then I am glad that the Mavs apparently disagree with you.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-18-2010, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

It seems like they are intent on getting the dream Gasol-type trade.

Maybe this is off-topic, but what are the odds of that actually happening? I'm just curious, does anyone here really think that the Mavs are going to get CP3 or any other "superstar" before the trade deadline? I would really love to believe that, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

41mvp · 07-18-2010, 05:48 AM

Hornets never trade CP3.CP3 had different style of game he like speed basketball.Dallas is slow team.We would change style our game.This is impossible!!!

sefant77 · 07-18-2010, 09:10 AM

Let us see:

If Chandler has a nice bounce back season we maybe dont pull off a mediocre looking trade at the deadline, specially if it would weaken our center position a lot.

If he has a nice season he will get next summer offers we dont wanna match for our 2nd center (8-10 million).

If we cant pull of a S&T next offseason he is gone.

Or would we even consider keeping Chandler and trading Haywood if Chandler plays like 2008?

tcat075 · 07-18-2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Let us see:

If Chandler has a nice bounce back season we maybe dont pull off a mediocre looking trade at the deadline, specially if it would weaken our center position a lot.

If he has a nice season he will get next summer offers we dont wanna match for our 2nd center (8-10 million).

If we cant pull of a S&T next offseason he is gone.

Or would we even consider keeping Chandler and trading Haywood if Chandler plays like 2008?

The problem is that Chandler's contract is friendly, while not nearly as many people will want the years that Haywood's has. Its all about the expiring.

dude1394 · 07-18-2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Maybe this is off-topic, but what are the odds of that actually happening? I'm just curious, does anyone here really think that the Mavs are going to get CP3 or any other "superstar" before the trade deadline? I would really love to believe that, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Well "believe" is way too strong a word here. I think what they are doing is making sure that they have the ability to do so if it becomes available. While still trying to upgrade their team.

That I believe.

41mvp · 07-18-2010, 10:41 AM

What superstars will be going to Dallas???Lebron,Wade,Boozer,Johnson they have teams.

sike · 07-18-2010, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Maybe this is off-topic, but what are the odds of that actually happening? I'm just curious, does anyone here really think that the Mavs are going to get CP3 or any other "superstar" before the trade deadline? I would really love to believe that, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

I doubt a "superstar"...but a high money guy like a Kevin Martin type at the 2 would be very nice. Unless Roddy blows up at the 2 this season.

Which leads me to an interesting question. If Roddy takes a HUGE step forward this season (at the SG specifically), what is then the next biggest area of concern to use all those expirings to address?

Underdog · 07-18-2010, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I doubt a "superstar"...but a high money guy like a Kevin Martin type at the 2 would be very nice. Unless Roddy blows up at the 2 this season.

Which leads me to an interesting question. If Roddy takes a HUGE step forward this season (at the SG specifically), what is then the next biggest area of concern to use all those expirings to address?

Point Guard.

41mvp · 07-18-2010, 03:54 PM

Houston build new team.They trade T-mac for Martin it's young team.What you think Martin for who?for Caron it was not good deal for us.

BGMaverick9 · 07-18-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Point Guard.

I would agree, with the next area being an additional wing. I do see DoJo being able to help fill some gaps in the PG position. Lin might be able to as well if he's on board.

I would say we'll be pretty thin at the SF with all of the expiring deals. If I remember the roster correctly.

sike · 07-18-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I would agree, with the next area being an additional wing. I do see DoJo being able to help fill some gaps in the PG position. Lin might be able to as well if he's on board.

I would say we'll be pretty thin at the SF with all of the expiring deals. If I remember the roster correctly.

I wonder how realistic it is for Roddy to become a serious option for Dirk's wingman?

rabbitproof · 07-18-2010, 07:41 PM

Not very.

Optimistically, I think Roddy establishes himself as a 82-game type starter.

But wingman implies All-Star, right? Someone who can score for the gang when the ace is cold or even when a hot ace is not enough.

Dirk is entering his senior year. He's gonna need some serious help if he's gonna win state.

sike · 07-18-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

But wingman implies All-Star, right? Someone who can score for the gang when the ace is cold or even when a hot ace is not enough.

I don't see All Star as necessarily a requisite...but yes to the second.

dalger · 07-18-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Point Guard.

Considering that Kidd was arguably our second best player last season and saved us many times, that might not bode well for our chances to win a championship in general. With the exception of Dirk, it's possible that the core we have with guys like Haywood, Marion, Butler and Jet might not be good enough--not even after Roddy going off and replacing Kidd with a point guard who is a) better than him and b) available without giving up too much to get said point guard.

I do agree that Kidd's age and the lack of a capable backup point guard are areas of concern, but starting Marion or relying on Jet is just as potentially troublesome for a team that wants to beat the Lakers and Miami.

sike · 07-18-2010, 08:55 PM

In theory a line up of Kidd, Roddy, Butler, Dirk, Haywood (Marion, Chandler, Terry) should be versatile enough and talented to play with anyone...but I think a lot of that is unfairly dependent on the French Muskrat's serious arrival.

Underdog · 07-18-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

Considering that Kidd was arguably our second best player last season and saved us many times, that might not bode well for our chances to win a championship in general. With the exception of Dirk, it's possible that the core we have with guys like Haywood, Marion, Butler and Jet might not be good enough--not even after Roddy going off and replacing Kidd with a point guard who is a) better than him and b) available without giving up too much to get said point guard.

I do agree that Kidd's age and the lack of a capable backup point guard are areas of concern, but starting Marion or relying on Jet is just as potentially troublesome for a team that wants to beat the Lakers and Miami.

I was thinking a bit more long-term with the PG position - if Roddy isn't the answer after Kidd steps down, then who is?

DoJo and Lin are interesting young talents, but there's no guarantee they'll be NBA-ready whenever Kidd's tank finally runs dry... It might be a position we need to address sooner rather than later...

dalger · 07-18-2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

In theory a line up of Kidd, Roddy, Butler, Dirk, Haywood (Marion, Chandler, Terry) should be versatile enough and talented to play with anyone...but I think a lot of that is unfairly dependent on the French Muskrat's serious arrival.

Hoping for that kind of growth from within thanks to Roddy would indeed be very optimistic. There's only so much difference-making one can ask for from a young second-year player who has only played limited minutes in his career. Looking good "on paper" has actually been one of our problems in the past. Last year's team was clearly good enough on paper to beat the Spurs, but we weren't able to overcome our (occasional) weaknesses. Then there was the year before that where we weren't as good as the Nuggets--and after this offseason, chances are we're not better than the Nuggets again, neither on paper nor on court. The Lakers are probably in a league of their own.

The trade deadline in February will be absolutely crucial for us. I certainly hope for the best, but it's going to be a Sysiphus-like undertaking for our FO...

LSMF · 07-18-2010, 09:28 PM

I still think Roddy is our PG of the future. Its seems like folks have given up on him as a PG so early in his career. If players like Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Aaron Brooks etc can play PG why can't Roddy? Not that I'm comparing Roddy to them, it's just those guys are really good scorers but yet they're still regarded as PG's. Let's give Roddy some time to make mistakes, and he'll be fine. As he gets more familiar with the league, and his English improves, he'll be able to run the team and the offense better.

tcat075 · 07-18-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I was thinking a bit more long-term with the PG position - if Roddy isn't the answer after Kidd steps down, then who is?

DoJo and Lin are interesting young talents, but there's no guarantee they'll be NBA-ready whenever Kidd's tank finally runs dry... It might be a position we need to address sooner rather than later...

Well, I wouldn't rule out Roddy as being Kidd's successor. There have been plenty of undersized 2 guards who pass well who have started and played a lot of point guard, even though they were not "true" point guards. Allen Iverson rings a bell. It might be a key to get a backup who is a distributor if that's the plan, but even if Roddy never is the PG we want him to be (which obviously he may) I think it still might work out fine.

dalger · 07-18-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I was thinking a bit more long-term with the PG position - if Roddy isn't the answer after Kidd steps down, then who is?

DoJo and Lin are interesting young talents, but there's no guarantee they'll be NBA-ready whenever Kidd's tank finally runs dry... It might be a position we need to address sooner rather than later...

In the long-term there has to be a change at the 1, no question. I'm just wondering whether we are at a point where we can make any long-term plans anymore as it relates to our championship hopes. It's not just Kidd at 37, but Dirk, Marion and Jet are 32+ as well. With those four guys in their 30s and three of them already declining, we're really in "win now" mode. If we were incredibly lucky to land Granger and Iggy early next year, then that would open our championship window again and we could even look at 2012 with Kidd's successor probably (or hopefully) on board by then. Right now, however, I'm just praying for Kidd to still be able next season to squeeze out some quality gas out of his tank...

Male30Dan · 07-19-2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Then I am glad that the Mavs apparently disagree with you.

Nice of you to make assumptions based on the fact that the trade didn't happen yet. Sure, it VERY likely won't happen for all sorts of possible reasons, but nice of you to make the assumption that it is because the Mavs agree with your stance and not mine. How perfect for you given the current circumstances.

OT - the Mavs never wanted or want CP3 either, seeing as how that trade hasn't taken place.

grndmstr_c · 07-19-2010, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Nice of you to make assumptions based on the fact that the trade didn't happen yet. Sure, it VERY likely won't happen for all sorts of possible reasons, but nice of you to make the assumption that it is because the Mavs agree with your stance and not mine. How perfect for you given the current circumstances.

OT - the Mavs never wanted or want CP3 either, seeing as how that trade hasn't taken place.

So Dallas' interest in Iggy is comparable to Dallas' interest in Chris Paul? Is that really the direction you want to go with this?

Male30Dan · 07-19-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

So Dallas' interest in Iggy is comparable to Dallas' interest in Chris Paul? Is that really the direction you want to go with this?

I could have thrown any number of names out that we have been linked to without a trigger being pulled. The name isn't of importance and I think you know that. But nice attempt to change the subject to something else considering the idiocy that was your previous statement. THIS JUST IN - THE MAVS DON'T WANT TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP BECAUSE IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

grndmstr_c · 07-19-2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

I could have thrown any number of names out that we have been linked to without a trigger being pulled. The name isn't of importance and I think you know that. But nice attempt to change the subject to something else considering the idiocy that was your previous statement. THIS JUST IN - THE MAVS DON'T WANT TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP BECAUSE IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. To avoid doing so any further I suggest you look up some news stories discussing Dallas/Iggy rumors and the (un)likelihood of Brand becoming a Maverick.

SMC0007 · 07-19-2010, 11:20 AM

I don't think it's embarrassing.

Underdog · 07-19-2010, 11:25 AM

Are the 76ers even trying to trade Iggy?

Has he even been on the FO's radar since last season's trade deadline?

I haven't heard anyone other than Mike Fisher and people who read Mike Fisher (like myself) mention Iguodala's name and the Mavericks in the same breath since we acquired Caron Butler...