Trust the Process - Mavs Edition

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Underdog

This is why I'm still intrigued by Michael Porter Jr. -- he actually plays really well off the ball... I know health is obviously an issue, but he's a perfect fit for this team if he's 100%.

Yeah Porter looks like a more athletic and skilled version of Tatum, Tatum 2.0, if he's healthy.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Yeah, I think this summer will be "him or me" time for the Wizards. They'll choose Beal but what if no one wants Wall with his contract and age/mileage?

Or they wait to see what Bron does and if he moves West they operate with the thinking that its a 3 team race to come out of the East. Barring unforseen leaps from Philly and Milwaukee

The biggest problem seems to be between Wall & Gortat, but yeah some think it's Wall & everybody else on the Wiz.

Side note: I think Milwaukee & Philly are ready to make some noise next year.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

The biggest problem seems to be between Wall & Gortat, but yeah some think it's Wall & everybody else on the Wiz.

Side note: I think Milwaukee & Philly are ready to make some noise next year.

I THINK PHILLY HAS AROUND 20M IN CAP ROOM TOO IF IM NOT MISTAKEN

[mac222b]

Geez sorry about the caps lok shout

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

There's a lot of talk about centers when it seems like what we need more is a SG with size, skills and high IQ.

Are bigger shooting guards still a thing though? Especially under Rick? I feel like any player we get 6'5 or over automatically gets the SF treatment.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Who's an example of a playmaking wing who doesn't need the ball in his hands tho?

A guy like Lamar Odom?

Sadly they are usually paid high. So I think we have to draft one, or develop one on our own. Prolly why we are trying to find something with collinsworth. I hate saying it, and he plays some 4 also... a guy like James Johnson I think would fit RC rly well. But he's about to be 31 and he signed a multi year with the Heat iirc.

I think possibly sleeper Chandler Hutchison could be that guy though. Or if Troy Brown slipped we could move up to get him at the end of the first maybe. I think I actually prefer Hutchison though.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Sadly they are usually paid high. So I think we have to draft one, or develop one on our own. Prolly why we are trying to find something with collinsworth. I hate saying it, and he plays some 4 also... a guy like James Johnson I think would fit RC rly well. But he's about to be 31 and he signed a multi year with the Heat iirc.

I think possibly sleeper Chandler Hutchison could be that guy though. Or if Troy Brown slipped we could move up to get him at the end of the first maybe. I think I actually prefer Hutchison though.

Funny you mention Hutchinson. I see what you're talking about now by a playmaking wing. Although, I would categorize Hutchinson more in the can create his own shot ledger of being a playmaker, not really a prolific passer.

Did you see the Nevada/Boise State game last night? If so, what'd you think?

Did you see the notes I left in the Trade & Draft thread on Hutchinson?

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Funny you mention Hutchinson. I see what you're talking about now by a playmaking wing. Although, I would categorize Hutchinson more in the can create his own shot ledger of being a playmaker, not really a prolific passer.

Did you see the Nevada/Boise State game last night? If so, what'd you think?

Did you see the notes I left in the Trade & Draft thread on Hutchinson?

Yeah I picked up on him from your notes. He's not a Batum level playmaker but he could maybe improve there. He has the skill set I think. And in a pnr heavy offense I think he could develop into a nice 4-5ast wing.

Edit-
The big thing is he moves well off the ball I think and he can hit the corner 3. That's tailor made for RC. If he can back door cut ala harris and hit the corner 3 and play some pnr he he's perfect for rc imo.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Yeah I picked up on him from your notes. He's not a Batum level playmaker but he could maybe improve there. He has the skill set I think. And in a pnr heavy offense I think he could develop into a nice 4-5ast wing.

Edit-
The big thing is he moves well off the ball I think and he can hit the corner 3. That's tailor made for RC. If he can back door cut ala harris and hit the corner 3 and play some pnr he he's perfect for rc imo.

I didn't make this comparison, because he is nowhere near the shooter, but I haven't seen someone run off of that many screens since Rip Hamilton & Reggie Miller.

Very astute observation because in that sense he's one of the best I've ever seen move without the ball.

[mac222b]

He’s going to go late teens early 20’s I think so we’d have to move on up if we want him but I’ve been impressed with what little I’ve seen of him. He looks fluid. Could be a bouncier Khris Middleton.

[walter]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

There's a lot of talk about centers when it seems like what we need more is a SG with size, skills and high IQ.

I agree and I've been saying for a while I think because of that we'll target Doncic in this draft. Carlisle prefers multi-skilled, versatile playmakers on the wings and Doncic seems like he's kind of the ultimate version of that. He could eliminate the "need" to play a two point guard lineup all the time. Can you imagine having a proper-sized wing that also provides the additional playmaking skills Carlisle craves?

Unless we luck into Ayton, I think we'll target a wing like Doncic or MPJ in this draft. I get the feeling we're trying to move toward a more positionless type of basketball that emphasizes switching on defense instead of traditional rim protecting bigs. Not to mention the MBT is probably confident they can find cheap rim protectors like Mejri that they can use when the situation calls for it.

When we played our young lineup against Houston recently we got a glimpse into the future...we switched absolutely everything on defense. Pick and roll offense. Positionless switching on defense. That's where we're going IMO. If neither Doncic or MPJ are available when we pick then I could see us going for Jaren Jackson Jr as he's kind of the perfect modern big as well.

[SMC0007]

Standout Centers may be harder to come by, but we haven't had an all around stud at SG in decades. Would Doncic be that? Idk, but we have one slasher/creater in DSJ in the starting lineup. I think Salah or Motley or whoever we pick up in FA would look similar to Capela if we had a stud SG to help DSJ.

[Underdog]

Looks like we're going all-in on the tank this year, but we're not tanking again next year... Cuban was just on Dr. J's podcast and had this to say:


http://www.revolverpodcasts.com/show...all-with-dr-j/

[tap2390]

I would bet anything Cuban got or will get a call from Silver regarding those comments.

That being said, I appreciate he’s keeping it real(istic).

[sefant77]

Good rookie and improved DSJ and we are probably allready way to good to tank. Even our tank this year was lucky with this ~20 losses with seven or less points

[Magnum_3_Ball]

I don't feel like I really understand. I know I caught some grief in this forum, at the time, for saying it, but if the Mavs are full on tank mode & even Carlisle understands that the owner is on board now, then what was Feb 3rd in Sacramento?

If we're tanking, then we can easily lose that game. Did the Mavs not know how competitive this was going to be...

Because here's my concern. Ok good. Now we're tanking. It is really AWESOME!!!

But, 7 other teams are going to try too. Well, one the Brooklyn Nets don't even have to try. We have 7 games left with teams in the bottom 8 of the standings. How do you out tank a team?

We could have a 2 game lead right now, if he hadn't beat Sacramento or the Lakers, and that would be huge. Right now, I think we can tank & still finish with the 5th or 6th worse record. God I hope I'm wrong, but they have may started this just a tad too late.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

I don't feel like I really understand. I know I caught some grief in this forum, at the time, for saying it, but if the Mavs are full on tank mode & even Carlisle understands that the owner is on board now, then what was Feb 3rd in Sacramento?

If we're tanking, then we can easily lose that game. Did the Mavs not know how competitive this was going to be...

Because here's my concern. Ok good. Now we're tanking. It is really AWESOME!!!

But, 7 other teams are going to try too. Well, one the Brooklyn Nets don't even have to try. We have 7 games left with teams in the bottom 8 of the standings. How do you out tank a team?

We could have a 2 game lead right now, if he hadn't beat Sacramento or the Lakers, and that would be huge. Right now, I think we can tank & still finish with the 5th or 6th worse record. God I hope I'm wrong, but they have may started this just a tad too late.

Except if we weren't full-on tanking already and we're currently #3, then what makes you think we can't get the #1 overall pick when we actually TRY to tank?

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Except if we weren't full-on tanking already and we're currently #3, then what makes you think we can't get the #1 overall pick when we actually TRY to tank?

It's a good point. I'm saying there are other teams who are following a similar course i.e. halfway tanking up until now & full tank mode post ASB.

We could very well wind up with the worst record, but we could also fall to 5th or 6th worst record with all the competition.

My point is, if we had the foresight to start earlier in the process, like 2 weeks ago, then we could have a 2 game lead dropping the games to SAC & LAL. If we had a 2 game lead and were trying to fully tank, then I don't think we could be stopped honestly.

I'm really just highlighting how meaningless those wins to SAC & LAL are. I'm team tank, the ultra side of it. Like to a Sam Hinkie level. That's a little tongue-in-cheek, but in all seriousness, I hope those 2 wins don't come back to bite us in the rear because anyone with some foresight could see that we needed to lose those games desperately. Particularly the game vs SAC.

What's done is done tho. Let's hope we run really good & lose'em all in the 2nd half!!

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Let me give this a little context. I've been raising these how important is it to draft high in this year's draft type of Qs in the trade and draft thread...

I just realized this the other day, or better put just remembered this. From 1999 to 2011 only 3 teams represented the Western Conference in the NBA Finals: Los Angeles Lakers, San Antonio Spurs, and our beloved Dallas Mavericks. That means if you didn't draft Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan or Dirk Nowitzki, then you had no shot at winning title coming from the Western Conference for a 13 year stretch, the entire span of many players NBA careers.

That's how important it is to hit on a franchise player.

Looking at it from that perspective, I could really care less about JJ Barea, Devin Harris, Wes Matthews or any other reason folks have given about why we didn't lose to Sacramento & the Lakers. We need to hit on this year's pick and hit on it big because the next decade hangs in the balance.

[SMC0007]

Well RC and Donnie have said, you play the games and try to win and deal with whatever happens. I don't think they were ever in half-way tank mode.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Well RC and Donnie have said, you play the games and try to win and deal with whatever happens. I don't think they were ever in half-way tank mode.

You do realize that no franchise can say they are purposely losing right? Silver would bring the hammer down if that happened.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Well RC and Donnie have said, you play the games and try to win and deal with whatever happens. I don't think they were ever in half-way tank mode.

I mean, they also said they were going to take Frank Ntilikina in last year's draft. We can't take everything the Mavs say at face value.

All I can really do is look at what is in their best interest and what happened on the court. And vs SAC on Feb 3rd they were losing, getting their ass kicked really by the Kings thru 3 quarters, & they rallied to a win in the 4th qtr. They did so by relying on their vets. Then just 2 days later vs LAC they're winning in the 4th qtr and they sub in Kleber, Ferrell, Mejri for Barea, Dirk, and Powell, and they go onto lose a 9 point lead and lose the game.

One game they're clearly not tanking. 2 nights later, they do the best they can to tank. That's a half measure.

[saclare]

I think you have to give up already on what was proven to be a fluke game? Could they have said, shit, we are climbing back into this and are going to win? Or did the Kings just simply suck for that stretch to begin the 4th?

All you have to do is look at the same lineup they trotted out last Tuesday and see how the Kings dominated the Mavs at the AAC. What if Rick and the gang were actually trying to lose that one but the Kings were just worse during that stretch. Shit happens, we move on, and now you have the owner outright saying we are going to tank and lose games for the betterment of this organizations future. Not sure what more you can ask.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by saclare

I think you have to give up already on what was proven to be a fluke game? Could they have said, shit, we are climbing back into this and are going to win? Or did the Kings just simply suck for that stretch to begin the 4th?

All you have to do is look at the same lineup they trotted out last Tuesday and see how the Kings dominated the Mavs at the AAC. What if Rick and the gang were actually trying to lose that one but the Kings were just worse during that stretch. Shit happens, we move on, and now you have the owner outright saying we are going to tank and lose games for the betterment of this organizations future. Not sure what more you can ask.

Zach Lowe posted in his 10 Things article, back on January 12th, that the Mavs lineup of Dirk, Barea, Harris, Powell, and Yogi Ferrell was one of the most effective lineups in the NBA averaging 19 points more per 100 possessions than their opponents.

I'll give you 2 guesses which 5 Mavericks took the court to the start the 4th quarter that night in Sacramento, but you're only going to need 1 guess.

I mean, I think the Mavs know what Zach Lowe knows. I think they knew what they were doing, and it doesn't make sense to me. Why put out your best lineup in the 4th qtr vs the Kings in a game you're well on your way to losing, but then 2 nights later totally change course?

All I can say is maybe somebody from the front office saw what I'm seeing & stepped in. Because the two games, the two approaches, they don't agree with each other.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You do realize that no franchise can say they are purposely losing right? Silver would bring the hammer down if that happened.

Well Cuban is quoted as saying they were tanking on purpose. Now let's see what happens. Where is the shit emoji???

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

I mean, they also said they were going to take Frank Ntilikina in last year's draft. We can't take everything the Mavs say at face value.

No they didn't. They never said who they were going to draft at all. That would be foolish... Also, Frank was already off the board when we picked, so it's not like he was even an option.

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

One game they're clearly not tanking. 2 nights later, they do the best they can to tank. That's a half measure.

They did exactly what Cuban said they were going to do: try to win the winnable games. And now they're not.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Well Cuban is quoted as saying they were tanking on purpose. Now let's see what happens. Where is the shit emoji???

Correction: Cuban never said they were tanking (past tense), he said they were going to tank the rest of the season (future tense)... And I'm not sure what Silver can do about it anyway -- it's not like the players are going to be throwing games or messing up Vegas odds so much as the coaching staff is going to be evaluating youth for next season. No rules against benching vets.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

No they didn't. They never said who they were going to draft at all. That would be foolish... Also, Frank was already off the board when we picked, so it's not like he was even an option.



They did exactly what Cuban said they were going to do: try to win the winnable games. And now they're not.

Why is there so much arguing over semantics on this forum? You know what I meant. The Mavericks let it be known that they were interested in Ntilikina, and clearly they were not.

The winnable games quote came after the loss at home to SAC, which was after the games we're talking about. Unless I'm mistaken about the time of the quote.

Either way, it really doesn't change the fact that you can't look at what the Mavs say, you can only look at what they do & what's in their best interest.

Down by 4 going into the 4th qtr, allowing your opponent to shoot 64% from the field, on the road vs a team you're competing with for the worst record in the league, it made no sense to send your best 5 players out there to start the 4th qtr. I don't care what anyone says really it made me so mad that night I wrote Cuban an email entitled "I Hope You Enjoy Watching DeAndre Ayton Hoist the Larry O'Brien Trophy For The Orlando Magic".

It still pisses me off today. Even though, I'm happy they're actually trying to tank now.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Zach Lowe posted in his 10 Things article, back on January 12th, that the Mavs lineup of Dirk, Barea, Harris, Powell, and Yogi Ferrell was one of the most effective lineups in the NBA averaging 19 points more per 100 possessions than their opponents.

I'll give you 2 guesses which 5 Mavericks took the court to the start the 4th quarter that night in Sacramento, but you're only going to need 1 guess.

I mean, I think the Mavs know what Zach Lowe knows. I think they knew what they were doing, and it doesn't make sense to me. Why put out your best lineup in the 4th qtr vs the Kings in a game you're well on your way to losing, but then 2 nights later totally change course?

All I can say is maybe somebody from the front office saw what I'm seeing & stepped in. Because the two games, the two approaches, they don't agree with each other.

What is that lineup generally playing against, though? Backups would be the answer. It's when Dirk comes back after his first visit to the pine. Our bench is a top 7 overall efficiency, and owns a top 3 efficiency recap difference.

Looking at the face of that lineup you'd say hell yea, we are tanking. I guess Rick can't do it right because I'm sure we would be complaining if DSJ, Matthews, and Barnes were out there instead. Rick gets some limited options once we get to that point. I guess you could argue he should have thrown out Salah, Collinsworth, and the rest of the G league squad is out there.

Bottom line, that game was an anomaly, and not worth the time to gripe about. Cuban and the FO now seem to understand the process, and that is all we could have hoped for. I also don't think it's too late since despite our best efforts to win games, we are right there at the bottom of the league.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Why is there so much arguing over semantics on this forum? You know what I meant. The Mavericks let it be known that they were interested in Ntilikina, and clearly they were not.

It's not semantics, you're the one who chose those words. There's an actual difference between "are interested in" and "are going to" -- it's a matter of certainty, which is a relevant distinction when you're trying to use the FO's words against them... I have no idea what you do or don't know, so I was setting the record straight.

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Down by 4 going into the 4th qtr, allowing your opponent to shoot 64% from the field, on the road vs a team you're competing with for the worst record in the league, it made no sense to send your best 5 players out there to start the 4th qtr. I don't care what anyone says really it made me so mad that night I wrote Cuban an email entitled "I Hope You Enjoy Watching DeAndre Ayton Hoist the Larry O'Brien Trophy For The Orlando Magic".

It still pisses me off today.

You need a hug, bruh?

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You do realize that no franchise can say they are purposely losing right? Silver would bring the hammer down if that happened.

I never thought once about that

Seriously though.. what could you possibly see that makes you think any of this garbage is on purpose? They are going to try and win every so foe game they can.. and probably up until the last game regardless of what it could mean.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I never thought once about that

Seriously though.. what could you possibly see that makes you think any of this garbage is on purpose? They are going to try and win every so foe game they can.. and probably up until the last game regardless of what it could mean.

Teams that are tanking often commit to playing their younger guys the second half the season which is as much evidence as you'll get that tanking is in effect.

The only question is whether the Mavs stick with the youth plan.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by saclare

What is that lineup generally playing against, though? Backups would be the answer. It's when Dirk comes back after his first visit to the pine. Our bench is a top 7 overall efficiency, and owns a top 3 efficiency recap difference...

This is a really good point.

I still don't like bringing those 5 out for the 4th qtr. I think they work well together for a reason. Those are some of the longest tenured Mavs. They've played together for awhile. They know each other well, and it's more than just they're facing the opposing team's bench as the reason they have success. Granted that does help.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

This is a really good point.

I still don't like bringing those 5 out for the 4th qtr. I think they work well together for a reason. Those are some of the longest tenured Mavs. They've played together for awhile. They know each other well, and it's more than just they're facing the opposing team's bench as the reason they have success. Granted that does help.

Well, Harris is gone for a start. Not much we can do about Barea. Latest comments suggest he is about to get some days off or limited minutes, hopefully. Harris and Barea were just great-fitting Mavs, where they were great in their roles here (perhaps too much so) and much more valued here by our FO/fans than what the trade market suggested. Oh well, on to more tanking.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Teams that are tanking often commit to playing their younger guys the second half the season which is as much evidence as you'll get that tanking is in effect.

The only question is whether the Mavs stick with the youth plan.

Apparently not sticking to the youth plan.

RC continues to roll out the savy vets, taking timeouts to sub and draw up plays when we have the game lost. It's not in his nature and this tanking is accidental.

I'm just so sick of the small ball and veterans that have reached their peak. The last 2 games our starting lineups have been effective in putting us into a hole, but then here comes the BS timeouts and lineup changes to try to pull these games out.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Apparently not sticking to the youth plan.

RC continues to roll out the savy vets, taking timeouts to sub and draw up plays when we have the game lost. It's not in his nature and this tanking is accidental.

I'm just so sick of the small ball and veterans that have reached their peak. The last 2 games our starting lineups have been effective in putting us into a hole, but then here comes the BS timeouts and lineup changes to try to pull these games out.

I'm sure Carlisle is beyond pissed, annoyed and embarrassed by Cuban's comments on tanking. Cuban really put Carlisle in a tough spot.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Luke

I'm sure Carlisle is beyond pissed, annoyed and embarrassed by Cuban's comments on tanking. Cuban really put Carlisle in a tough spot.

Yeah Cuban, as per usual, just couldn't wait to blow his wad. I understand that running his mouth MAYBE, sometimes, has some point behind it. About officiating, etc. But what in the world is meant to be accomplished by openly admitting to tanking? It's just attention seeking and not of the good sort. It's bad p.r.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Yeah Cuban, as per usual, just couldn't wait to blow his wad. I understand that running his mouth MAYBE, sometimes, has some point behind it. About officiating, etc. But what in the world is meant to be accomplished by openly admitting to tanking? It's just attention seeking and not of the good sort. It's bad p.r.

I mean the officiating comments can be looked at in the same way. I haven't seen any of those types of comments help the Mavs, especially with whistles.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by saclare

I mean the officiating comments can be looked at in the same way. I haven't seen any of those types of comments help the Mavs, especially with whistles.

Early on it definitely hurt the Mavs. I'm convinced and no one will ever dissuade me otherwise that it cost the Mavs the '06 Finals. That was a complete joke of an officiating job by those clowns.

But, by 2011, Dirk was given a lot of respect. A lot. Dirk attempted double digit FT attempts 10 times in that 2011 championship run (including 24 attempts, Dirk was for 24 for 24, vs OKC). A guy whose signature move is a fade away jump shot. Definitely helped our cause by the end.

[mac222b]

Absolute clusterfuck. Speaks to my point that I've been hammering away at, obnoxiously at times I'm sure, for years ; there is a power vacuum. MBT is not on the same page. Cuban cant keep his blank in his pants and is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Carlisle is stubborn and passive aggressive(when he's not aggressive aggressive). Donnie is ineffectual.

So here we are. With our best shot to land our next franchise player here since. And in short order we have: become embroiled in a sexual harassment scandal; Cuban makes totally unnecessary tanking comments leading to this residual swell of pride on the part Carlisle, Dirk, other vets etc. to counteract the negative vibes and try to win almost entirely meaningless games; possibly resulting in Carlisle continuing to play DSJ off the ball and giving Barea more minutes than are healthy for anybody but JJB's ego, and in the process rubbing our young burgeoning star point guard the wrong way.

This is disfunction.