Thanks a lot Cuban!!

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Erod

The funniest thing in all of this is that some thing bringing in Deron Williams will cure this.

This is the same guy that forced Jerry Sloan into retirement with his bad attitude. He'll make minimal difference at best, and eat up a ton of salary cap space.

Meanwhile, the greatest center in Mavs history sits in New York with his reasonable contract and defensive MVP trophy.

This amazes me.

[Underdog]

The real story with Chandler is that our front office gambled on the season getting cancelled and lost.

If the lockout had axed the '12 season, then Dwight Howard and Tyson Chandler would have both been the exact same FA status as soon as teams could start signing players. Deron Williams would have too... Signing both Dwight and Deron would have been a simple matter of amnestying Haywood and letting all of our contracts expire (which would have been made even easier without the future Odom and Carter buyouts on the books).

There's more than one reason why Cuban voted against the new CBA - building this roster is going to be a lot trickier than it could have been...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

The real story with Chandler is that our front office gambled on the season getting cancelled and lost.

If the lockout had axed the '12 season, then Dwight Howard and Tyson Chandler would have both been the exact same FA status as soon as teams could start signing players. Deron Williams would have too... Signing both Dwight and Deron would have been a simple matter of amnestying Haywood and letting all of our contracts expire (which would have been made even easier without the future Odom and Carter buyouts on the books).

There's more than one reason why Cuban voted against the new CBA - building this roster is going to be a lot trickier than it could have been...

I don't know that "gambled" is the right term, but completely agree with the rest of the post. I think I even pointed this out before the lockout started. Once the first games were canceled, the Mavs had to be praying for the whole season to be canceled. Then you have the reigning champs with the ability to add two max free agents to the reigning Finals MVP.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't know that "gambled" is the right term, but completely agree with the rest of the post.

I consider everything that an NBA front office does to be a bit of a gamble - those guys are pretty much professional soothsayers...

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It just so happens that offense was our biggest problem all season, and a big problem in the playoffs.

Center play was not even close to our biggest problem over the course of the season. It was really, really bad in the four game sample of the playoffs. Maybe that's meaningful, maybe it's not, I really don't know at this point.

We got into the playoffs, that was all that mattered. Offense seemed to be our biggest problem during the regular season but that ends when the playoffs begin. Once you get past that point, making it into the playoffs, nothing else behind it mattered. It was about what you do when teams key in on you and start to practice directly toward exposing our weaknesses.

The defense was by far the reason why our season is over imo. We couldn't get stops, couldn't hold a big lead, or any lead. Lack of being able to keep guards in front of us and lack of a back line defender etc.. Last year we had guys step up offensively but we were always able to get stops when we had to, for the most part.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

We got into the playoffs, that was all that mattered. Offense seemed to be our biggest problem during the regular season but that ends when the playoffs begin. Once you get past that point, making it into the playoffs, nothing else behind it mattered. It was about what you do when teams key in on you and start to practice directly toward exposing our weaknesses.

The defense was by far the reason why our season is over imo. We couldn't get stops, couldn't hold a big lead, or any lead. Lack of being able to keep guards in front of us and lack of a back line defender etc.. Last year we had guys step up offensively but we were always able to get stops when we had to, for the most part.

Both the defense AND offense sucked in the playoffs. Couldn't get stops, and there just isn't another Mavericks outside of Dirk who can consistently score anymore.

[LonghornDub]

Thanks a lot Bin Laden.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by markus1234

And now it is time to ask Cuban, are you in or are you out.

Wow, people have become delusional since the sweep.

Seriously, buy tickets or don't but don't pretend Cuban owes us something. He puts on a show and we pay. If he puts on a crappy show, we may hesitate to go again.

Don't pretend he's anything more than that or that he owes us anything.

As for this season's season-ticket holders-- I feel bad for you. Between the lockout and your perceived roster sleights, you got a raw deal but there is never a guarantee in the NBA. It's unfortunate that you buy the product before you know what you are getting, but its a gamble and i feel bad that it was a bad one this year.

[Jon]

[QUOTE=jthig32;1275208]And yet, over the course of the season, we had a top ten defense.

[quote]As for your other contention, that Chandler hurts our flexibility to improve our team, I reckon that the only way he's a true hindrance to our future plans is if our future plan is to get Howard. If Tyson made 13.6 million he's scheduled to make from the Knicks next year for us, how does that limit our flexibility to get Deron? Particularly if we were planning to give both Howard and Deron 16-20 mil a year?

Well, first of all, Deron's max is ~17Mil, and Dwight's max is around ~18. In order to clear enough cap space for both of them, we'd have had to basically gut the entire roster.

To do Deron and Tyson, would have been a similar issue, only with about 4Mil of extra wiggle room. 4Mil is enough to keep Roddy and Jones (exciting right)?

It's a very, very different thing to gut a roster to bring in Howard and Dwill than it is to bring in Chandler and DWill. Even if you want to call Chandler the 2nd best center in basketball (which he's not), Howard is still several levels above that, and contributes much more offensively, which is what you would need after gutting the roster.



Centers are expensive. But because of the way our roster was/is setup, we were forced to accept the reality that we have to fix our back court with cap space before we kill it with a center.

We could just take on bad contract in order to get a good player like we have in the past. It's the reality of the new CBA.

My point was that our top 10 defense was flawed in its execution.

We were exposed.


In four games.


By the same core of players we held very much in check in 5 last year.

Granted, that's not all on the loss of Chandler. D. Steve leaving left a big hole as well. For all that he is, Delonte was not as bulky or physical a defender as D. Steve and therefore was at a much greater disadvantage when we switched the 1-3 PnR on defense. Our ability to switch all 3 perimeter defenders and not lose much ground was huge in curtailing the offensive potency of their 3 most prolific scorers. Hopefully we can get somone like OJ mayo next year at the 2 who can provide size and still spread the floor.

As for the contract numbers tossed out, the maximum that Howard can receive is actually 19( or 18.99 if you want to be technical) million. Tyson will earn 13.6, for a difference of 5.39. If this article is to be believed, even once the Mavs gutted the entire roster (meaning got rid of Roddy and Dojo as well as everyone else), the max offer we could offer both of them would be 15.95 and we would have to use the rest of the money to sign vet mins.


I'm making an assumption here, but I do not believe either D. will or Dwight would be willing to sacrifice even more money (check the article for specifics) to play together with Dirk in Dallas, so we'd be set with the 2.5 for everyone else. Given that Tyson was willing to forego the extra millions that GS offered him to pay with a contender in NY, chances are he'd forego an extra million to stay in Dallas, where he said his preference was all along, thus helping our flexibility. If, for instance, he decided to forego 800k and signed for 13 a year rather than 13.8 a year, we would be 25 million under the cap -- given we gut. Add Deron at 16 and we're at 8. At a max of 17 we're at 7. Either way, we've still got flexibility.

But all of this is ancillary to your other contention -- that Tyson isn't worth what Howard is worth. For the record, I have never asserted in my long and storied posting history here at dallas-mavs.com that Tyson is the 2nd best center in the NBA.

He's the 2nd best center for Dirk. As long as Dirk is here, Tyson is the 2nd best center built for him. An agile, lengthy big who can hedge hard, recover quickly, grab boards, and deter shots at the rim is precisely what Dirk needs to be successful on the defensive end. If you don't believe me, ask the man said it himself.

Or the sidekick.

Or the best defender on our team.

There's only one center in the league who is a better fit than Tyson and that's Dwight. I hope we get him because I'm an optimust prime and not a negatron, but that doesn't stop me from questioning the MBT's moves.

The names people keep throwing out as our new center truly worry me. People rag on Chandler's injury history and then suggest that Kaman would be a better fit. He's more injury prone than Chandler and isn't nearly the defender. Roy Hibbert will likely be resigned in Indiana. Spencer Hawes can spread the floor and add a new dimension to our offense, but he's softer on defense than a Justin Timberlake album (no disrespect to JT intended). And all of them are likely to sign for an 8 figure salary.

[LonghornDub]

^ I don't agree with everything he's said, but I like this guy. Thoughtful, articulate, great sig.

[balldontliez]

o.o...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

The names people keep throwing out as our new center truly worry me. People rag on Chandler's injury history and then suggest that Kaman would be a better fit.

Nobody said Kaman was a better fit - he's just the best of what's left, and he'll definitely be a lot cheaper than Chandler (probably about the same cost as Haywood or so), but I do agree that the other centers you listed are long shots.

What about Nene? The Wizards are already at the cap next season, but they aren't winning any games. Rashard Lewis is ridiculously overpaid, but he's an expiring, so they probably won't amnesty him (especially since they could have last season and didn't). Nene is their next highest paid player at $13mil-per over the next 4 years...

We could hypothetically trade Odom/Carter/+ for Nene and Washington would save ~$10mil by buying them out... Not sure that they'd want to trade him so soon after acquiring him from Denver, but if they were looking for some instant cap relief, this could be an option... Although the bigger question is whether Cuban would go for an injury-prone 12/7 career guy at $13mil/4years in Nene when he wasn't interested in paying an injury-prone 9/9 career guy at $14mil/4years in Chandler? I probably just answered my own question, but signing Nene might be one way for Cuban to rectify the mistake of letting Chandler go...

Or we can trade Odom, Marion and whoever else has value to another team for as many draft picks as we can get our hands on and try to make a run at Dwight Howard during the draft... Orlando seems to be most interested in picks for Howard - can we collect enough, in addition to our #17, to get a trade done?

I guess what I'm dancing around at the moment is that we still have a ton of options (other than just signing free agents) at the center position this summer...

[Jon]

I hope you're right, Undie.

[balldontliez]

i'd rather have chandler, but i wouldn't mind me a nene

not as good on defense but better on offense

[mavsfan1000]

Time to amnesty Haywood.

[JeffViggiano]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Time to amnesty Haywood.

right now!!!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

I hope you're right, Undie.

About which part?

I wasn't really saying that any of those things were going to happen, just that we have several different options in obtaining a center - from FA signings (Kaman), to offering cap relief (Nene), to flipping draft picks (Howard)... And probably a bunch of options that I haven't even considered yet.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Jon

My point was that our top 10 defense was flawed in its execution.

We were exposed.


In four games.


By the same core of players we held very much in check in 5 last year.

This is just not true.

I looked at the advanced box scores for the 2011 Thunder series and the 2012 Thunder series.

In 2011 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 112 pp/100 posessions. They gave up 108 pp/100.

In the 2012 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 100 pp/100 possessions. They gave up 107 pp/100.

On the whole, the defense was basically the same, while the offense suffered a catastrophic fall.

Just look at the box scores and you'll that this narrative people have crafted about our suffocating defense being the back bone of our team is just false. It was a good defense, with the ability to be great for stretches, but the offense was just important, if not more so.

Hell we won a game against the Thunder last year while giving up 120 pp/100. Let that sink in.

The narrative being sown around here that the defense wasn't up to snuff just isn't accurate.

[markus1234]

In the 4th we could not step up on D, we could not get stops and score transition baskets.

And that's exactly what OKC did this season against us. They stepped up on D in the 4th, forced turnovers and scored in transition.

What counts is the FOURTH QUARTER. This is where you should compare stats and numbers. Because this is where we sucked this year, and what made us great last year

>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...KPCI6Po#t=119s

And Chandler/Deshawn/Marion/Kidd were crucial in those situations.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by markus1234

In the 4th we could not step up on D, we could not get stops and score transition baskets.

And that's exactly what OKC did this season against us. They stepped up on D in the 4th, forced turnovers and scored in transition.

What counts is the FOURTH QUARTER. And this is where you should compare stats and numbers. Because this is where we sucked this year, and what made us great last year

>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...KPCI6Po#t=119s

And Chandler/Deshawn/Marion/Kidd were crucial in those situations.

Look, I'm not going to completely discount the clutch situations. There's no question that having Chandler on the floor in the fourth quarter helped the defense, and this season that was a challenge.

But the team also couldn't score in the fourth quarter, and Chandler didn't have a ton to do with that. And don't give me this BS that we were scoring in transition during clutch situations. We were walking down the court, and Dirk and Jet were dropping daggers. Hell the people generating transitions opportunities (steals) are still here and were still doing it.

You cannot completely write off those statistics by citing clutch play. The Mavs offense fell of a cliff during the regular season AND the post season. It's the biggest reason why we got swept, and it's our biggest roster issue facing this team right now. (This where I would normally add "period", but LDub mocks people for that. )

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is just not true.

I looked at the advanced box scores for the 2011 Thunder series and the 2012 Thunder series.

In 2011 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 112 pp/100 posessions. They gave up 108 pp/100.

In the 2012 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 100 pp/100 possessions. They gave up 107 pp/100.

On the whole, the defense was basically the same, while the offense suffered a catastrophic fall.

Just look at the box scores and you'll that this narrative people have crafted about our suffocating defense being the back bone of our team is just false. It was a good defense, with the ability to be great for stretches, but the offense was just important, if not more so.

Hell we won a game against the Thunder last year while giving up 120 pp/100. Let that sink in.

The narrative being sown around here that the defense wasn't up to snuff just isn't accurate.

Thanks for looking that up

[mavsfan1000]

It looks like we missed Barea's offense the most imo.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

It looks like we missed Barea's offense the most imo.

Barea's inside game and Peja/Stevenson's outside game - yep, our offense was a mess this season.

Lamar Odom could've helped that . . . A LOT.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And don't give me this BS that we were scoring in transition during clutch situations. We were walking down the court, and Dirk and Jet were dropping daggers.

And this is where i'd like to see some Joshi stats to back it up.

IMO 50% was Dirk and Jet half court and 50% transition offense (which pretty much did not exist this year).

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by markus1234

And this is where i'd like to see some Joshi stats to back it up.

IMO 50% was Dirk and Jet half court and 50% transition offense (which pretty much did not exist this year).

During close fourth quarter possessions? You think they scored half their points on transitions buckets?

Come on.

[markus1234]

Just count all those Jet transition 3's and 2's. IMO he had "twice" as many opportunities last year.

But of course i am just guessing right now. Maybe you are right and we grinded it out in the 4th...

[DirkFTW]

Originally Posted by jthig32

During close fourth quarter possessions? You think they scored half their points on transitions buckets?

Come on.

Sure, you hit them with the classic tertiary break 15 seconds into the possession.

[LonghornDub]

Man, I can't believe that anyone would ever say the Mavs scored many points in transition last year. They were (and are) an absolutely dreadful transition team.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Man, I can't believe that anyone would ever say the Mavs scored many points in transition last year. They were (and are) an absolutely dreadful transition team.

Man you should listen to Dirk more often. MAVS offense IS about getting a stop and scoring in transition as much as possible. That's their philosophy and Dirk keeps saying it in every 2nd interview. And the Mavs were also PLAYING like that. Transition offense does not necessarily mean finishing at the rim with a dunk/layup.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Man you should listen to Dirk more often........ That's their philosophy and Dirk keeps saying it in every 2nd interview

What did Dirk say? Link?

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by Underdog

What did Dirk say?

one example

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04...e-thunder.html

I can give you 1000.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Man you should listen to Dirk more often. MAVS offense IS about getting a stop and scoring in transition as much as possible. That's their philosophy and Dirk keeps saying it in every 2nd interview. And the Mavs were also PLAYING like that. Transition offense does not necessarily mean finishing at the rim with a dunk/layup.

Just because transition points are efficient points doesn't mean they were 50% of the Mavs points last year.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Man you should listen to Dirk more often. MAVS offense IS about getting a stop and scoring in transition as much as possible. That's their philosophy and Dirk keeps saying it in every 2nd interview. And the Mavs were also PLAYING like that. Transition offense does not necessarily mean finishing at the rim with a dunk/layup.

Transition offense means offense in transition--i.e., before the defense is set. Dirk is referring to the Mavs getting stops and getting into their "flow" offense, in which Rick doesn't call plays and the Mavs freelance primarily by exploiting mismatches. This is not "transition offense."

The Mavs are a bad transition team. The vast, vast majority of their late-game scores last year came in the half-court.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is just not true.

I looked at the advanced box scores for the 2011 Thunder series and the 2012 Thunder series.

In 2011 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 112 pp/100 posessions. They gave up 108 pp/100.

In the 2012 Thunder series, the Mavs scored 100 pp/100 possessions. They gave up 107 pp/100.

On the whole, the defense was basically the same, while the offense suffered a catastrophic fall.

Just look at the box scores and you'll that this narrative people have crafted about our suffocating defense being the back bone of our team is just false. It was a good defense, with the ability to be great for stretches, but the offense was just important, if not more so.

Hell we won a game against the Thunder last year while giving up 120 pp/100. Let that sink in.

The narrative being sown around here that the defense wasn't up to snuff just isn't accurate.

Not calling you a liar, but can you point me in the direction where you found those statistics? Per basketball reference, the Thunder shot .10 percentage points higher as a team this year from 2, and over 100 percent higher from 3, thus lending credibility to my assertion that the Mavs defensive philosophy of giving players plenty of space and collapsing the paint, rather than play tigh tight and man-up and funnel them toward a defender on the drive, seems to indicate.

2011: 456 from 2, .275 from 3.
2012: 467 from 2, .381 from 3


But I believe this to all be irrelevant given your latter assertion: that the defense this year was just as good as it was last year in the playoffs. All one would have to do to tell the difference between this year and last year is watch the 4th quarter of game 4. We star the quarter up 10 points, and end it down six. Meanwhile, Harden scores 13 points all on his own and dishes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgg-Om2EJrs
Harden in the 4th.

It seems to me as though you are incapable of recognizing the shortcomings and liabilities that befall Haywood and Mahinimi. I am bereft of any joy when I suggest that Haywood lacks the lateral quickness requisite to play alongside Dirk when when the games are in balance and Harden proved as much. For all of Mahinimi's athletic prowess, he either A) refuses to make the right rotations, or b) doesn't know how to play team defense at an elite NBA level.

As you suggested earlier, our team's success last year was fueled primarily by our offense -- Dirk's ability to be Dirk. I heard a lot of people talk about how Dirty was able to "take it to the next level" last season and play his best basketabll of his career.. I think that's bullshit. IMHO, the Dirk we got in 2011 was the same Dirk we saw vs the Spurs in 2010 and vs the Nuggets and Spurs in 2009.

The difference between 2010 and 2011 is this: vs the Spurs, we had no one on our roster who could cover the PnR they used time and time again to stretch us out and murder us. Given our defensive philosophy then was to hedge hard and recover quickly, running a 1-5 PnR or a 2-5 PnR between Parker/Gino and Duncan/McDyess left us exposed on the inside. How many times did we all, as Mavs fans, watch in disbelief as Antonio hit J after open J while Dampier or Haywood rotated late because they were incapable of covering the requisite space?

We did not have that problem with Chandler. If you do not believe me, check the links I posted earlier. Marion said just as much. So did Jason Terry.

So did Dirk.


If Dirk believes we took a step back, why don't you?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by markus1234

one example

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04...e-thunder.html

I can give you 1000.

Dirk doesn't mention anything about transition offense in that link - try one of your other 999 articles...

[Jon]

.100*, not 100.

[markus1234]

@LonghornDub

Of course that's transition offense. Transition offense starts with a STOP (that's what Dirk is talking about) and then you simply try to score asap.

And a stop usually started with Chandler, Marion and Kidd.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by markus1234

@LonghornDub

Of course that's transition offense. Transition offense starts with a STOP (that's what Dirk is talking about) and then you simply try to score asap.

And a stop usually started with Chandler, Marion and Kidd.

So the elements of transition offense are: 1) a stop on the previous defensive possession, and 2) "trying to score ASAP." Got it.

You learn something new every day in Basketball 101.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

Sure, you hit them with the classic tertiary break 15 seconds into the possession.

This concept of the tertiary break becomes very important now that we've learned that approximately 40-50% of all NBA possessions are "transition offense." We may also want to talk more about the quarternary and quinary fast break, in which you get a stop, run the ball down, quickly go around the horn trying to get an open shot, and then finally get one with 2 seconds left on the shot clock. This execution is crucial for any successful "transition" team.

[markus1234]

This one is also sweet...

"Our bench has really given us a lot," Carlisle said. "We were able to strike a balance tonight. Keeping Jason Kidd under 30 (minutes) was huge. Dirk had a lot in the tank because we were able to rest him earlier in the game. The key was kept getting stops."

That's been the key all season for the Mavericks, who at 15-4 have the second-best record in the Western Conference and are off to their best start since the 2002-03 season when they won 17 of their first 18 games.

Dallas has held 10 of its 19 opponents to 10 points below their scoring average. The Jazz entered Friday's game averaging 102 points per game and finished well below that total against the defensive-minded Mavericks.

"Tonight was a great effort defensively," Terry said. "That's where it starts for us. We've been hanging our hat on it all year. Once we got our defense going, and got out in transition we finished well."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ter-surge.html