damp traded for tyson chandler

[dude1394]

Male29Dan;1110568All I know is the last time we did that we had one of our worst seasons in the last 10.

There were a whole bunch of stuff going on there that was not just on the court. For example Nellie had completely checked out by then. And walker was a freakin' nut. I have a tough time comparing that to anything that makes basketball sense, it didn't. And I certainly think using that situation as a comparison to a jefferson (or kaman if you like) comparison is off base.

That is why I would prefer to bring a guy in that plays defense AND offers other things. No ONE DIMENSIONAL guys for me please, even if their one dimension is very good.

Well...yea...And who is this please that was/is available? Instead we go with another defensive only center. We now have another more athletic dampier I guess. I don't see how this team is changed one iota form that acquisition. Nor do I see how it is BETTER than a team with Jefferson/Haywood as the center combo. I just do not.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I disagree comparing the jamison/walker/dirk era with a jefferson/dirk combo. All three of those guys DID player power forward/small forward. They all wanted the same space.

The jefferson/dirk combo does not fall into that same category. Unless you are thinking that jefferson is going to push dirk out of the low blocks?

I also believe that having a don nelson coached team versus a RC coached team is eons apart when it comes to giving a rat's ass about defense. Nellie has shown over and over again that he just does not care about that side of the ball.

And my contention is that what we see on the court right now looks almost identical to what we saw last year, Jefferson would have changed that and imo it desperately needs changing.

At the end of games it will be the same dirk/jet pnpop that hasn't gotten it done in about half a decade.

I assume your rotation is something like the following, right?

Wood(30)/Jefferson(18)
Dirk(36)/Jefferson(12)
Marion(30)/Butler(18)
Butler(18)/Jet(18)/Roddy(12)
Kidd(34)/Roddy(8)/Jet(6)

While Wood sits, the frontcourt defense would be horrible as either Jefferson or Dirk would be the C (both terrible there). When Wood plays, Dirk would be primarily playing (1st and 3rd quarters both would get a lot of burn together). When Dirk sits Wood and Jefferson would be together and would likely be in each other's way - but on D, that would work fine.

The thing is that Jefferson is a PF - he needs a Wood behind him on D. With Dirk, there are only so many minutes to go around for him to have that situation - and those minutes definitely won't be at the end of the game. Basically you would likely be looking at Jefferson and Dirk finishing games and a lot of late substitutions to get Jefferson out when the opposing team is coming down to score and then try to get Jefferson back out there when we have the ball again. I think it was more trouble than it was worth personally and I don't like the fit, but I understand why you want to do it. You are right - we are still going to be a jump shooting team and this would have provided another dynamic. I wouldn't add it due to the cost it would bring, but at this point, I get the "what do we have to lose" mentality.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

There were a whole bunch of stuff going on there that was not just on the court. For example Nellie had completely checked out by then. And walker was a freakin' nut. I have a tough time comparing that to anything that makes basketball sense, it didn't. And I certainly think using that situation as a comparison to a jefferson (or kaman if you like) comparison is off base.

Well...yea...And who is this please that was/is available? Instead we go with another defensive only center. We now have another more athletic dampier I guess. I don't see how this team is changed one iota form that acquisition. Nor do I see how it is BETTER than a team with Jefferson/Haywood as the center combo. I just do not.

Well you are suggesting that Jefferson/Haywood is better than Haywood/Chandler, but Haywood/Chandler is not the end of it (that is the hope anyway). Obviously we are going to TRY to get something for Chandler in the future, so the future question is whether or not Jefferson/Haywood is better than Haywood/Mahinmi/__(acquired via trade)__.

[dude1394]

Well there is always hope...for next year. To get?? what?? A scoring center or a ??? Unless the person we pick up is a superstar distributing 2-3 I don't see it. That is why I'm pretty stuck on stupid I guess for wanting some sort of inside game.

I'll have to defer on the jefferson being a horrible defender (like Pau Gasol for example) because he's a PF, not a Center (like Pau Gasol).

If a guy is 6'11" and 265 then he's got a good chance to be confused with a center. And when his primary scoring is back to the basket and in the post...he also seems to have a good chance to be confused with a center.

IMO an argument of he cannot play center because he's a power forward would apply to Tim Duncan also, who as we all know, does play center.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well there is always hope...for next year. To get?? what?? A scoring center or a ??? Unless the person we pick up is a superstar distributing 2-3 I don't see it. That is why I'm pretty stuck on stupid I guess for wanting some sort of inside game.

I'll have to defer on the jefferson being a horrible defender (like Pau Gasol for example) because he's a PF, not a Center (like Pau Gasol).

If a guy is 6'11" and 265 then he's got a good chance to be confused with a center. And when his primary scoring is back to the basket and in the post...he also seems to have a good chance to be confused with a center.

IMO an argument of he cannot play center because he's a power forward would apply to Tim Duncan also, who as we all know, does play center.

First of all, the HOPE is the deadline, not next year.

Regarding Gasol, understand that when no injuries are in play, Gasol plays PF. He only plays C when Bynum is gimpy (which in fairness, is quite often). Also, don't let the little fact that Kobe is playing beside him get lost here - you know, the greatest player in the NBA since Jordan. He has something to do with the fact that they continue to win with a sub-par defensive PF playing C (when Bynum is out that is). They also have a VERY talented roster with very good role players, defensive stalwarts that can also score (imagine that), and veteran leadership.

Please don't compare Tim Duncan and his outstanding defense to Al Jefferson in a debate on why Al Jefferson should be considered a center. Size alone doesn't make a man a Center - or maybe you want to consider Dirk a center (or is it only weight that does it)?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well there is always hope...for next year. To get?? what?? A scoring center or a ??? Unless the person we pick up is a superstar distributing 2-3 I don't see it. That is why I'm pretty stuck on stupid I guess for wanting some sort of inside game.

I'll have to defer on the jefferson being a horrible defender (like Pau Gasol for example) because he's a PF, not a Center (like Pau Gasol).

If a guy is 6'11" and 265 then he's got a good chance to be confused with a center. And when his primary scoring is back to the basket and in the post...he also seems to have a good chance to be confused with a center.

IMO an argument of he cannot play center because he's a power forward would apply to Tim Duncan also, who as we all know, does play center.

Gasol us a much better defender than Jefferson, imo. He also plays next to Bynum (when healthy), Odom, Artest and Bryant. Not as critical that he be a stud defender in that lineup.

Duncan is one of the greatest post defenders in the history of the game. Let's please not bring him into this discussion.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

First of all, the HOPE is the deadline, not next year.

Regarding Gasol, understand that when no injuries are in play, Gasol plays PF. He only plays C when Bynum is gimpy (which in fairness, is quite often). Also, don't let the little fact that Kobe is playing beside him get lost here - you know, the greatest player in the NBA since Jordan. He has something to do with the fact that they continue to win with a sub-par defensive PF playing C (when Bynum is out that is). They also have a VERY talented roster with very good role players, defensive stalwarts that can also score (imagine that), and veteran leadership.

Please don't compare Tim Duncan and his outstanding defense to Al Jefferson in a debate on why Al Jefferson should be considered a center. Size alone doesn't make a man a Center - or maybe you want to consider Dirk a center (or is it only weight that does it)?

So Gasol is a PF but plays center and they win a championship, actually 2. I know Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread but Gasol is a PF and he played center and the lakers are a VERY good defensive team. How can that be since Gasol is a PF. I don't believe that fisher is faster than jkiddo? Bryant imo isn't much better of a defender than Marion. How come the lakers can live with a PF at center and we cannot? Now if you are just making the argument that Jefferson himself is the PF that cannot play center, I'll have to give that one to you as I don't know the guy well enough. But the "he's a PF, so not a center" just doesn't compute to me.

For what it's worth I don't see why dirk cannot play center except want to and ability to pick up cheap fouls. He's big enough. If he would focus on bulking up I don't see why he couldn't play center.

The only reason I threw Duncan out there is because your argument is "Jefferson is a power forward, not a center". I know Duncan is a transcendent player but your argument would apply to him as well.

I guess I'm getting lost on what does make a center?
Height - check
Weight - check
Willingness - errrrr....If that's the case, then I think my argument about want to is more relevant than anything we've discussed here about the center position.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

First of all, the HOPE is the deadline, not next year.?

For who, what? Who would change this team faster than a low-post presence?

[SMC0007]

dojo

[rabbitproof]

He can score, thus, he is not a center.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So Gasol is a PF but plays center and they win a championship, actually 2. I know Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread but Gasol is a PF and he played center and the lakers are a VERY good defensive team. How can that be since Gasol is a PF. I don't believe that fisher is faster than jkiddo? Bryant imo isn't much better of a defender than Marion. How come the lakers can live with a PF at center and we cannot? Now if you are just making the argument that Jefferson himself is the PF that cannot play center, I'll have to give that one to you as I don't know the guy well enough. But the "he's a PF, so not a center" just doesn't compute to me.

Come on Dude, the team is stacked... How many damn titles did he win in Memphis? Don't understimate Kobe/Artest/Odom/Fisher as defenders. Gasol is also > Jefferson on defense. Just read Thig's reply if you hate taking my word for it - maybe you respect his opinion far more than mine.

For what it's worth I don't see why dirk cannot play center except want to and ability to pick up cheap fouls. He's big enough. If he would focus on bulking up I don't see why he couldn't play center.

Ability comes to mind - he can't jump so he HAS to turn to the hacking ball swipes for blocks. Those cheap fouls would put your best offensive player on the bench - not where he needs to be.

The only reason I threw Duncan out there is because your argument is "Jefferson is a power forward, not a center". I know Duncan is a transcendent player but your argument would apply to him as well.

No it wouldn't apply to Duncan as well. I am not arguing that HE IS A PF BECAUSE HE HAS A BASKETBALL CARD THAT SAYS HE IS. I am arguing that he is a PF because his back to the basket defense and help defense both are horrible and that kind of a defensive presence can't be your last line. Hell, against a team with a formidable inside scoring PF you would see him guarding the opposing C. He is much like Dirk - put him on the least-capable offensive guy. You can't have two of those on the court at the same time and be successful.

I guess I'm getting lost on what does make a center?
Height - check
Weight - check
Willingness - errrrr....If that's the case, then I think my argument about want to is more relevant than anything we've discussed here about the center position.

If it were that easy there would be a ton of tall fat guys that REALLY wanted to succeed making millions of dollars. Fact of the matter is that you forgot one more checkbox - ability/talent.

Above...

[dude1394]

I"m NOT discounting that the team is stacked. For that matter the mavs are just as stacked... Yup it's true. They have quality up and down the roster. Maybe Phil Jackzen is the genious he thinks he is (unfortunately I think this may be true).

I don't know why Memphis has been brought up. But if the whole discussion here is Gasol is a much better defender (AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN) than Al Jefferson I'll just have to say, okay, because I haven't seen enough of Al to make that determination.

I HAVE seen a lot of Gasol and his defense before he got somewhere that mattered..and..well it kinda sucked.

So Gasol has more ability to play center than Al Jefferson or Dirk does? Is that true?

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

For who, what? Who would change this team faster than a low-post presence?

Well you are assuming the Mavs HAVE to change in order to win a title. We almost won a title playing just like this and had the refs (sorry, I will never forgive them for that shit) not turned a sure Mavs game 3 victory into a total joke we would have won that series and this conversation would never have happened.

The Mavs simply need to stop running out Kidd/Terry lineups (again, with guys that can't play defense well hurting our team) and that will only change by upgrading positions. Dirk is our 4 and Wood is our 5 - that is set in stone for the next 4 years or so. Kidd is our 1 for at least a couple of years, barring a surprising trade. So you are talking 2/3. If you want to look at Caron as hands off and pencil him in as the 3 (he is NOT a 2), well there you go, down to just the 2. Now, of the 2s available, who is better than Iggy that won't create the same Kidd/Terry defensive issues that we have now (like a Martin would for example)?

Cricket........Cricket........Cricket........

[dude1394]

I don't see anyone as hands off. In fact I think either caron/marion need to be moved as they are redundant to me. I think a young defender would probably give us what marion does. I've wanted jet moved for a long time but I don't see anyone (including iggy to be honest) who is a dynamic enough scorer to pick up that slack in the pick and pop. I'd replace marion or caron with iggy, but I don't see him as that significant and upgrade either.

I think the crickets are chirping but imo it's because even if we got iggy we still wouldn't have a low post player on the roster.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Jefferson seems to be the right size to play a center (height and weight).

I thought this at first, but Draftxpress has him listed at 6'8 3/4 WITH shoes. Not sure where anyone got the 6'10 from. Maybe since he was pretty young that he grew another inch, but 6'8 sure as heck is too small for the center.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I"m NOT discounting that the team is stacked. For that matter the mavs are just as stacked... Yup it's true. They have quality up and down the roster. Maybe Phil Jackzen is the genious he thinks he is (unfortunately I think this may be true).

We are just too far apart on the difference between the defensive abilities of the Lakers and the Mavs for me to change your mind. That is as good of a defensive team as any outside of Boston, and that is more of a team defense approach. The reason that Gasol's below-average C defense is OK in LA is because of the individual defense from the collective others. If you put Gasol on another team (oh, I don't know, Memphis maybe) he looks quite a bit worse. Maybe the argument could be made that Jefferson has suffered from that and adding him to Dallas would motivate him, but there is still that ability factor and he doesn't have a lot of that.

I don't know why Memphis has been brought up. But if the whole discussion here is Gasol is a much better defender (AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN) than Al Jefferson I'll just have to say, okay, because I haven't seen enough of Al to make that determination.

Okay.

I HAVE seen a lot of Gasol and his defense before he got somewhere that mattered..and..well it kinda sucked.

Any big is going to be hurt by poor defense from the other positions as anyone penetrating is going to get you as the last line of defense. When team defense significantly improves you significantly improve. With that said, if Gasol kinda sucked, Jefferson blew chunks.

So Gasol has more ability to play center than Al Jefferson or Dirk does? Is that true?

Yes.

Above.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't see anyone as hands off. In fact I think either caron/marion need to be moved as they are redundant to me. I think a young defender would probably give us what marion does. I've wanted jet moved for a long time but I don't see anyone (including iggy to be honest) who is a dynamic enough scorer to pick up that slack in the pick and pop. I'd replace marion or caron with iggy, but I don't see him as that significant and upgrade either.

I think the crickets are chirping but imo it's because even if we got iggy we still wouldn't have a low post player on the roster.

I am going to throw this out there, tongue in cheek of course....

Brand?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

I am going to throw this out there, tongue in cheek of course....

Brand?

Understood. And if he were close to 7feet I'd have to think long and hard about it. But he's obviously undersized. Maybe Al J is also, in fact according to draftexpress he's about the same size as Al Jefferson and Dwight Howard height wise (6.825). If he's the same size as elton brand then I'll have to crawfish somewhat. My comments have been predicated on the belief that he was much closer to a 7 footer, he does has a 7'+ wingspan, but so does brand.

I've been going off of nba.com

[rabbitproof]

Let's bring some #s into this using 82games.com to discuss Gasol vs Jefferson and PF vs C.

Jefferson: http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIN12.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN15.HTM

Gasol: http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0809/08LAL14.HTM

In 2009-2010:
Gasol played 37% of the Lakers center minutes at +11.1 PER vs opp and 22% of the Lakers PF minutes at +4.9 PER vs opp.
Jefferson played 36% of the Wolves center minutes at +1.6 PER vs opp and 25% of the Wolves PF minutes at +3.3 PER vs opp.

In 2008-2009, when Jefferson was healthy:
Gasol played 53% of the Lakers center minutes at +9.3 PER vs opp and 22% of the Lakers PF minutes +4.2 PER vs opp.
Jefferson played 43% of the Wolves center minutes at +7.1 PER vs opp and 2% of the Wolves PF minutes at +4.5 PER vs opp.

My conclusions: Both players are more center than PF at this point in their careers. Gasol was probably the better player even when Jefferson was healthy but when Jefferson was healthy, and he suffered a two-year injury, they were not far apart.

Regarding defense, both are pretty mediocre or below-average defenders but Jefferson was atleast average when healthy. Looking at team defense: Pts per 100 Poss. ON vs. OFF court:

Jefferson was -.9 the year before and +1.9 last year.
Gasol was +3.9 the year before and +2.8 last year.

The big basketball-related questions are if Jefferson would have taken a 6th man role here well and if he was completely healthy. As a center, he may not defend well, but he does a little better than Gasol but beyond that, for our purposes of projecting him as a woulda-been Maverick, Jefferson at center would've exploited the opposing center more than he would get exposed himself.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I've been going off of nba.com

Well damn Dude, there is your problem...

[dude1394]

Since we brought up draft express... I thought this interesting about jefferson's defense.

Defense: Has the length and strength to be effective on this end, but lacks the fundamentals and effort level to capitalize. Used to be extremely foul prone, but has learned to sacrifice points on the defensive end for the sole purpose of staying on the floor longer. Does a poor job defending the post, allowing defenders to back him down too often and outright giving up on plays. Will still fall for some fakes, but not as many as he used to. Fights for position, but not to the point that he could get called for a foul. Shows great timing and anticipation when contesting shots, but isn’t quite quick enough to be a major factor coming over from the weakside. Gets quite a few of his blocks on the ball. Very instinctive in that regard. A liability when attempting to defend power forwards, which forces his team to play him as an undersized center. Needs to lose weight and improve his conditioning level to help in this regard. Struggles to hedge screens on the perimeter--doesn’t recover to his man very quickly. Is limited by the same characteristic when closing out shooters. Takes up too much space down low not to be a solid rebounder. Tremendous wingspan, hands and reflexes make him extremely productive on the glass. Has some tools defensively, but is still working to put them together on a more consistent basis.
[Read Full Article]

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz0uEtxjbFK
http://www.draftexpress.com

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Well damn Dude, there is your problem...

Heh! It's not like theres a plethora of numbers being thrown around here, I thought I was safe.

[jthig32]

Here's the bottom line:

If the Mavs thought Jefferson was even a marginal defender, and in any way capable of playing defense next to Dirk, they would have acquired him. Period.

If the TWolves thought Jefferson was capable of playing center next to an offensive power forward, they would have kept him.

Post scoring big men that are capable of defending centers and guarding the rim are HIGHLY sought after pieces. Coveted by the entire league (hence so much discussion here).

And yet Minnesota traded him for almost nothing.

Connect.The.Dots.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Here's the bottom line:

If the Mavs thought Jefferson was even a marginal defender, and in any way capable of playing defense next to Dirk, they would have acquired him. Period.

If the TWolves thought Jefferson was capable of playing center next to an offensive power forward, they would have kept him.

Post scoring big men that are capable of defending centers and guarding the rim are HIGHLY sought after pieces. Coveted by the entire league (hence so much discussion here).

And yet Minnesota traded him for almost nothing.

Connect.The.Dots.

1) He's coming off an off year.
2) I think unloading Carroll/Najera played a bigger role than you think. Utah took on salary with their trade. We cut with ours. That's a big difference.

[rabbitproof]

3) Always trade with Minnesota. You never lose. (in case the picture doesn't make sense).

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

1) He's coming off an off year.
2) I think unloading Carroll/Najera played a bigger role than you think. Utah took on salary with their trade. We cut with ours. That's a big difference.

Of course the salary was a huge difference. But that's BECAUSE Jefferson is not the player he's being made out to be by some.

If Jefferson was capable of playing adequate defense next to Dirk, you could legitimately call him the missing piece. He would be worth his weight in gold. Roster makeup is not the issue at that point, because he's the starting center no questions asked.

The Mavs flat out don't believe that he's capable of playing next to Dirk for extended periods of time. That's the only explanation to why they wouldn't pay the money to get him here.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Here's the bottom line:

If the Mavs thought Jefferson was even a marginal defender, and in any way capable of playing defense next to Dirk, they would have acquired him. Period.

If the TWolves thought Jefferson was capable of playing center next to an offensive power forward, they would have kept him.

Post scoring big men that are capable of defending centers and guarding the rim are HIGHLY sought after pieces. Coveted by the entire league (hence so much discussion here).

And yet Minnesota traded him for almost nothing.

Connect.The.Dots.

Well I understand the greatness that is the mbt. But is this the same group that did NOT trade Josh for Gasol??

Minnesota...they traded Garnett for the dude...hard to know how smart the are...I would expect they are being smart to tear it all down to youngsters and hope they get lucky..

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well I understand the greatness that is the mbt. But is this the same group that did NOT trade Josh for Gasol??

Minnesota...they traded Garnett for the dude...hard to know how smart the are...I would expect they are being smart to tear it all down to youngsters and hope they get lucky..

A. I don't understand why some people continue to state the Josh for Gasol thing like it's documented fact. I don't recall any situation where we got confirmation that the Mavs ever balked at that. In fact I remember Cuban and the rest of the NBA being pissed because they never got the chance to bid for Gasol.

B. Gasol has many of the same issues as Jefferson, just to a lesser extent. I would have liked to see how it worked, but I would have been pretty leery of that defense as well. When Josh was at his peak, it is at least somewhat defensible that they would have had second thoughts because, again, it's not a great fit next to Dirk.

C. Jefferson is still a youngster. If he was as good (of a CENTER!) as some people make him out to be they would be keeping him.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

A. I don't understand why some people continue to state the Josh for Gasol thing like it's documented fact. I don't recall any situation where we got confirmation that the Mavs ever balked at that. In fact I remember Cuban and the rest of the NBA being pissed because they never got the chance to bid for Gasol.

Beats me...just regurgitating stuff. This is also the group that decided that nash wasn't worth keeping either and that Josh was the man. I'm not trying to rag them that much, this stuff is hard, but imo saying the mavs didn't want him so they are right...well...that doesn't leave anyone much to talk about.

B. Gasol has many of the same issues as Jefferson, just to a lesser extent. I would have liked to see how it worked, but I would have been pretty leery of that defense as well. When Josh was at his peak, it is at least somewhat defensible that they would have had second thoughts because, again, it's not a great fit next to Dirk.

My biggest concern in all of this is that at the end of the day we are going to be the exact same team that has been knocked out of the first round in what 4 of the last 5 playoffs or something like that? The team seemed to have had a chance to bring in a guy who "might" change the dynamic here. So we would have had haywood/mahimi/jefferson as centers if it blew up. But by what "I" think is being tentative, they have embraced the status quo.

C. Jefferson is still a youngster. If he was as good (of a CENTER!) as some people make him out to be they would be keeping him.

Maybe...maybe not.. They didn't keep Garnett for example. Memphis didn't keep Gasol. Small market teams do weird stuff.

Like this "to Utah for two future first-round draft picks, prospect Kosta Koufos' contract and yet more salary cap space."

I mean come on...the mavs were in essence trading dampier for jefferson and first rounders that we have long said are easily purchasable. It seemed like a very good way to change the dynamic of the team without blowing it up. I believe it was a very big missed opportunity.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

2) I think unloading Carroll/Najera played a bigger role than you think. Utah took on salary with their trade. We cut with ours. That's a big difference.

I would have to say your are dead-on on this one you wascally wabbit. We could have had the dude but we wanted cap relief to do them the favor.

According to Stein, talks between the Mavericks and Timberwolves slowed down when the Mavericks pushed for the Timberwolves to take on contracts of Matt Carroll and DeShawn Stevenson. The trade talks were reportedly centering around the valuable non-guaranteed $13 million contract of Erick Dampier as well as two future first-round picks in exchange for the 6-foot-10 Jefferson, who averaged more than 17 points and nine rebounds per game last season.

And we ARE talking about how we do NOT want to replace Dampier with Al Jefferson...right?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I would have been fine with Jefferson, BUT I do also see the merits of the other side of the coin. I think a time warp to the past is in order as the Mavs tried the PF at center thing next to Dirk with Juwan Howard. Juwan was 6'9, 250 was averaging a decent 18/7/3 when traded to us. He was at PF at the end of that season, but was moved to center year after (01-02) because Dirk couldn't play SF much anymore. Juwan couldn't play any defense and teams ate us alive in the middle.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I would have been fine with Jefferson, BUT I do also see the merits of the other side of the coin. I think a time warp to the past is in order as the Mavs tried the PF at center thing next to Dirk with Juwan Howard. Juwan was 6'9, 250 was averaging a decent 18/7/3 when traded to us. He was at PF at the end of that season, but was moved to center year after (01-02) because Dirk couldn't play SF much anymore. Juwan couldn't play any defense and teams ate us alive in the middle.

Yep.

Or how about a time warp to earlier this season when Gooden produced well at the center position for a run of games while starting but the team got eaten alive defensively?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Well to be fair, Gooden had a much more reliable Damp to provide the D, and Juwan had the not so reliable Shawn Bradley....but I get it.

[dude1394]

If you guys are saying that juwan/gooden are the same size as jefferson...okay, your point is much more apparent. I also see the other side of the coin and understand the defensive issues.

But gooden/juwan don't appear to be nearly the low-post offensive player that Jefferson is, so those seem like points that sort of miss to me.

[grndmstr_c]

1) I consider Gasol a better defensive player than Jefferson. Not an enforcer in the middle by any stretch, but intelligence, effort and length set him apart.

2) Even with Jefferson's considerable defensive issues I would've been in favor of making him the target if he were as good a passer as Gasol.

Stated simply, I just think Pau's clearly the better player.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

My personal opinion is that I don't think Carlisle wants a severe lack of defense at the starting positions (outside Dirk obviously), especially center. If defense wins championships, then Chandler was arguably the smarter move. To me, everything depends on his health. It's a bust if he is injured all season. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, but a healthy Chandler goes a looooooong way.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

My personal opinion is that I don't think Carlisle wants a severe lack of defense at the starting positions (outside Dirk obviously), especially center. If defense wins championships, then Chandler was arguably the smarter move. To me, everything depends on his health. It's a bust if he is injured all season. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, but a healthy Chandler goes a looooooong way.

Bingo-bango.

Everything else aside, Chandler fits this team/coach's mentality better than Jefferson...

[fluid.forty.one]

What's funny about Jefferson as a defender is that the Jazz wanted him. I'm curious to see what Sloan does to him as a defender.

[DLord]

In your analyses of Jefferson, let me give you a comparison to a player we see a lot more that puts him in perspective. He's very very similar to Carlos Boozer.

He's almost exactly the same height (within 3/4 inch), wingspan (within 1/4 inch), and even has the same strength (low post scoring) and weakness (defense).

Boozer http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Carlos-Boozer-1734/
AJ http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Jefferson-2979/

I think of Boozer as someone who would have been nice to put alongside Dirk or to complement his game - but at no time would I ever think he could really be the center for the Mavs. And Jefferson is no different.

In contrast Pau Gasol's issue was (and imo still is) the mental makeup. Gasol has the height (he's listed as 7-0 but I'd wager he's an inch or 2 taller from personal observation) and the wingspan to be a center, but until he got to LA he didn't have the fortitude to battle with the big boys, and at times still has that issue. But he's tall enough to play in the middle and be a factor there.

[mac222b]

so let's say that no other offers came along and the T'Wolves buckled and took on some contracts. we get Jeffferson for picks, Damp and dump some contracts. don't we still have AJ playing C/PF? it was a question of value? dumping the contracts allows for other upgrades, i guess? still it's strange to say "we don't want AJ, he's a liability in the middle. oh you'll take Carroll's contract? deal!" he's not suddenly less a liabilty...