LOST: SEASON 5 - Page 14 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Flacolaco · 02-25-2009, 10:08 PM

Well screw me.

The plane DID crash.

Flacolaco · 02-25-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Crazy theory time: Locke/Bentham doesn't/didn't/won't commit suicide. He can't do it, just like he couldn't kill his father. So Ben kills him.

Well, I was wrong about this.

Kind of.

Flacolaco · 02-25-2009, 10:12 PM

So...the island grabbed Kate, Jack, Hurley, and I presume Sayid. They're back in time in the 70's

They said "the pilot" and a woman (Sun? yeah?) took a canoe to the main island. So why wasn't Sun grabbed off the plane? And she and Frank are in 2008, with everyone else from (rolling eyes) "the new plane".

And...do you think it's Lapidus and Sun that were shooting at Sawyer and Locke? It must have been some of these other folks, right? And that Cesar...he's with Ben, right?

And I was shocked...shocked to see Locke standing there on the beach right after the plane crashed. Just like that. I thought he was going to be popping in and out ghost (Christian) style from now on. Apparently not.

alexamenos · 02-25-2009, 10:14 PM

that was an excellent episode. Lock in his wheel chair with spooky black guy pushing him around was such a trip back in time...of course the big thing at the end. i'm gonna have lost wet dreams all week.

Kirobaito · 02-25-2009, 11:35 PM

What a superb episode.

Next week's looks, perhaps, better.

ty · 02-26-2009, 12:25 AM

Me right now:

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 12:46 AM

I still can't figure out why Ben turned the wheel and left the island in the first place. It seemed genuine at the time. He seemed very emotional.

But now we know that he tricked Widmore into doing it before, and he was willing to kill Locke, and then organize the O6 and risk a plane full of people just so that he can get back.

So why did he leave at all? He could have convinced gullible old John to turn that wheel, no problem at all.

XERXES · 02-26-2009, 01:48 AM

Dude. Great episode. Every time we get a question answered it seems like we still get three more questions.

I loved the convo between Widmore and Locke after Locke has his broken leg set. Widmore is clearly amazed that the last time Locke saw him it was merely 4days ago- yet prob 50 years for Widmore.

Also, I get that Ben is a bad guy. But I got bad vibes from Abadon as well. The line between good and bad remains frustratingly indistinguishable.

And I remain completely perplexed how O6 finally wound up on the plane when they were so adamantly opposed to not doing so.

Kirobaito · 02-26-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I still can't figure out why Ben turned the wheel and left the island in the first place. It seemed genuine at the time. He seemed very emotional.

But now we know that he tricked Widmore into doing it before, and he was willing to kill Locke, and then organize the O6 and risk a plane full of people just so that he can get back.

So why did he leave at all? He could have convinced gullible old John to turn that wheel, no problem at all.

I think that, at the time, he genuinely thought he was supposed to leave the Island. But then when Locke also did, he realized 'o wait,' and therefore knew that he was not intended to leave at that point in time. So now he wants to go back.

alexamenos · 02-26-2009, 03:10 AM

I'm tapping the breaks on the evilness of Ben...

...a little side theory on Judas' betrayal of Jesus is that Judas was actually the most loyal of all the disciples, so loyal that he was willing to do the dirtiest of dirty work in order for Jesus to fulfill his destiny (or His destiny).

So yeah, Ben whacked John....but don't forget that he whacked John when only moments earlier he could have let John whack himself. Maybe knowing that John knew of E. Hawking was some kind of go sign, a signal that the game was on and the time to get John back to the island was now, hence Ben's motivation for murdering John was to get him back to the island, safe and sound, as quickly as possible.

Dtownsfinest · 02-26-2009, 03:33 AM

Maybe Ben wanted to take satisfaction in killing Locke himself? I don't know. I sort of agree with you alex. I'm not even sure if Ben is evil anymore. I think Whittmore is the one to watch out for as far as everyone on the island is concerned.

I love what they're doing with Locke's character. I didn't know what would occur after he died.

u2sarajevo · 02-26-2009, 07:36 AM

I also loved this episode. Jacks erratic behavior since the S3 finale is now understandable. I hope we get equal resolution to Kate and Hurleys 180.

And didn't they say no one died on the plane crash, just people got hurt? I think the writers are getting soft.

alexamenos · 02-26-2009, 09:06 AM

There was a bunch of good stuff in last night's episode. I especially loved Hurley's conversation with John....Hurley was non-plussed by John until he figures out that john isn't a crazy hallucination at which point he freaks out. crazy.

jthig32 · 02-26-2009, 09:20 AM

So.....ok....

First of all, my wife and I disagree on the scene where Ben killed Locke. My opinion is that Ben saved Locke because he needed that bit of info, and as soon as he got it, he did what he had been planning all along. My wife thinks that he wasn't planning on killing him at all until the word "Hawking" came out of his mouth, but that triggered something.

I think she's dead wrong on that. Anyone else?

Secondly...what on earth is going on with that plane? Is it even "wrecked" at all? It looked completely intact, just sitting on that island. And didn't the woman saying "he's not one of us" or something to that affect, give you the impression that perhaps some of the other people on the plane knew each other before getting on it? Am I reading too much into that?

And who is the "other woman" that left in the boat with the captain? Is it Sun? I don't know that you can assume that she wasn't grabbed as well.

Really, really strong episode. I thought I had more questions but I can't recall them right now.

nikeball · 02-26-2009, 09:39 AM

Thig...I thought of both of those theories for Ben within 1 minute of each other. I am still flip flopping back and forth on that. Ben seemed so calm before Eloise Hawking was named. Then John said her name and he snapped into crazy mode.

and about the plane. Why was it not in pieces if it crashed? Was there no fire? nothing? Did it get transported to the island with the rest of the O6? I don't believe it actually crashed onto the island.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

So.....ok....

First of all, my wife and I disagree on the scene where Ben killed Locke. My opinion is that Ben saved Locke because he needed that bit of info, and as soon as he got it, he did what he had been planning all along. My wife thinks that he wasn't planning on killing him at all until the word "Hawking" came out of his mouth, but that triggered something.

I think she's dead wrong on that. Anyone else?

Secondly...what on earth is going on with that plane? Is it even "wrecked" at all? It looked completely intact, just sitting on that island. And didn't the woman saying "he's not one of us" or something to that affect, give you the impression that perhaps some of the other people on the plane knew each other before getting on it? Am I reading too much into that?

And who is the "other woman" that left in the boat with the captain? Is it Sun? I don't know that you can assume that she wasn't grabbed as well.

Really, really strong episode. I thought I had more questions but I can't recall them right now.

I'm getting the feeling that Ilana and Cesar are "in the know", and were perhaps working for Ben or something. That would explain why she had Sayid on that plane, anyway.

I hear you about Sun, but who else would have grabbed Frank and a boat and took off like that as soon as they got there?

The plane...by the way, I loved that shot of the plane. There's just something so dramatic and jarring about seeing a plane somewhere it's not supposed to be. The pictures of that plane in the Hudson last month were captivating to me....anyway... Did we see the plane in relation to the beach? I wasn't sure.

Here's the conspiracy theory on the plane: Remember when they were building "the runway"? (for the aliens, Juliet joked). Maybe, somehow, Frank managed to put the plane down on the smaller island in a somewhat controlled manner? Maybe Ben somehow told Lapidus to aim for the smaller island? <--- like I said, it's a stretch.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-26-2009, 10:18 AM

I loved this episode as well. But it did seem a little rushed. I know we really didn't get a timeline for how long Locke was off the island, but in previous episodes, it made it seem like he was off for a year or so, continuously trying to convince the rest of the O6. Now we see that he really only visited each person once? Also, in a previous episode, Jack said he had been flying back and forth multiple times on his golden ticket. In this episode, we hear he's only done it once.

Not a big deal, just a little confusing timeline-wise.

They continue to muddy the waters on who is good and who is bad (Ben/Widmore). I love it.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 10:22 AM

As for Ben, Widmore, and Locke.... I think we could debate this endlessly, and I am open to all possibilities at this point.

MY first reaction, was that as soon as Locke told Ben about Hawking, Ben didn't need him any more...alive. So he killed him, something he's tried to do before.

Hawking and Widmore seem to be genuinely concerned for the island, and for the safety of the world or whatever it is. (Didn't Hawking say "we" would all be dead if they didn't go back?)

Ben seems to know what they know, but mostly just wants to use the circumstances to get himself back on the island, realizing that he never needed to leave in the first place.

Ben's going to be quite surprised to see John ("alive") again. Or is he?

A better question, maybe, is how did Richard know that John was going to die? When was that, that Richard told him while patching up his leg? We never really got a reference for the year in that scene, except the plane was there, and it was burned. Was it further in the future than we are now (in 2008)? Has Richard seen resurrected Locke? Is that how Richard knew?

Kirobaito · 02-26-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeball

Thig...I thought of both of those theories for Ben within 1 minute of each other. I am still flip flopping back and forth on that. Ben seemed so calm before Eloise Hawking was named. Then John said her name and he snapped into crazy mode.

and about the plane. Why was it not in pieces if it crashed? Was there no fire? nothing? Did it get transported to the island with the rest of the O6? I don't believe it actually crashed onto the island.

Dude, Frank freakin' Lapidus was flyin' that plane. He doesn't crash. He owns.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 10:44 AM

It was so great when Locke was rolling up and Hurley just looks at him and goes "You didn't make it, huh? Sorry dude"

nikeball · 02-26-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Also, in a previous episode, Jack said he had been flying back and forth multiple times on his golden ticket. In this episode, we hear he's only done it once.

We just have to measure by his beard growth. In this past episode it was fairly short and neatly trimmed. In previous episodes..when he met Kate & in his messy apartment it was longer and frazzled. He probably kept flying back and forth the next weeks or so.

edit - why has LOSTPEDIA not updated? wtf.

jthig32 · 02-26-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Here's the conspiracy theory on the plane: Remember when they were building "the runway"? (for the aliens, Juliet joked). Maybe, somehow, Frank managed to put the plane down on the smaller island in a somewhat controlled manner? Maybe Ben somehow told Lapidus to aim for the smaller island? <--- like I said, it's a stretch.

I know my first reaction to the opening scene was thinking that they're not actually on THE island. Why would there be a Dharma office with drawings for finding THE island on THE island.

So my first thought was that they must be on that second island as well.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 11:13 AM

It was Benjamin Linus...in the hotel room...with the extension cord!

XERXES · 02-26-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

It was Benjamin Linus...in the hotel room...with the extension cord!

dude! you win!

in all seriousness, clearly the overall arc of the show rests on the tension between ben and Widmore- and the fight for the island. I feel well-versed in Ben, but can you guys help me list what we know about Widmore?

Widmore:
-Once led the others
-Was on the island as 17yr old
-Father of Penny
-Extremely wealthy
-Has been trying to get back to island for a long time
-Was removed from island by Ben
-Hates Desmond (could this have anything to do w/the fact Des is "special" and some of the time travel rules don't apply to him? just a thought.)

Am I forgetting anything? And why are he and Ben BOTH trying to get Locke back to the island? Perhaps they both know he is the ticket back to being in charge of the island.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 02:20 PM

I wonder if Cesar is Widmore's man. Or Ilana...they seem to know each other, but then again, why would he hide what he took from her?

Maybe one of them is Ben's and one is Widmore's...

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XERXES

dude! you win!

in all seriousness, clearly the overall arc of the show rests on the tension between ben and Widmore- and the fight for the island.

There's a case against Widmore...

In this episode, Widmore told Locke that he sent the boat to remove Ben, so that Locke could lead.

If that's the case, and Widmore was trying to help the island that he claims to "have a lot invested in", why would Jacob/Christian tell Locke to move the island? Why not just let them take Ben and then it could be "Locke's time". Clearly the island and Mr. Widmore are not exactly on the same page.

And Christian recently told Locke that Ben was never have supposed to turn the wheel, it was supposed to be Locke. So, didn't the island want John to leave? (Or was that just to bring the O6 back?)

But, on the other hand...

By Abaddon's own admission, he was helping Mr. Widmore when he told John about the Walkabout. Widmore was trying to get John on a plane, so that he could get to the island. (Partly because he already knew that Locke was going to get there anyway).

He knew that John was going to the island, and he didn't try to go to the island himself. He knew how to find the island when he sent the freighter, but he didn't go to the island himself. He knew where Mrs Hawking is, and that she could find the island, yet he didn't use her to try and get back. He would have presumably known about flight 316 as well, but as far as we know, he wasn't on it.

It kind of seems like his intentions are what he says they are. He doesn't seem to be trying to get back to the island. He seems to be genuinely concerned about it, and John.

But it seemed like Ben just wanted to get back. Maybe I'm being led astray here by the writers. It would be fun if Ben turns out to be the good guy...but he's just so evil.

--------

Either way, all parties seem sure that something very bad will happen if the O6 + Locke don't go back.

Widmore warned Locke "The wrong side will win, if you're not back on the island."

Hawking warned Ben when he asked what would happen if he failed to get them back in 70 hours. She said "Then God help us ALL".

Abaddon said "You may want to step up your game, Mr. Locke. Or we're ALL in serious trouble".

There seems to be something bigger than Ben vs Widmore going on. Hawking and Widmore and Ben are all working to stop it.

Kirobaito · 02-26-2009, 03:14 PM

Widmore in "The Shape of Things to Come":

"That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again."

(roughly off the top of my head)

I don't think Widmore wants Locke to be leading anything.

u2sarajevo · 02-26-2009, 03:17 PM

Great discussion. I didn't see this mentioned but we apparently:

A) Didn't see all of Locke's journey to get the O6 to come back

or

B) Sun lied when referring to John Locke visiting her.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 03:31 PM

Ben said to Locke last night "You haven't even been to Sun yet..."

And then..well...extension cord.

From This Place is Death:

Quote:

[Sun nods. Ben reaches into his pocket and pulls out Jin’s wedding band, which he offers to Sun.]

BEN: Take it.

[She takes it and looks at it in amazement.]

SUN: [Speaking Korean, while looking at the ring.] [To Ben] How do you have this?

BEN: John gave it to me.

JACK: [interjecting] You said John never came to see you.

BEN: That’s true, Jack, I went to see him. [To Sun] Jin gave it to him before he left the island.

SUN: Why did he not tell me himself?

BEN: I don’t know. Maybe he never had a chance before he died

lol. ^^ Classic Ben.

DirkFTW · 02-26-2009, 03:46 PM

I wish I could punch Ben in the face. I've missed HUGE chunks of this show, but every time I watch, that guy is slippery as hell.

XERXES · 02-26-2009, 04:41 PM

it's interesting that in some of the interviews the producers said they hadnt really developed ben's character until they gave michael emerson the role of henry gale. he did so well and was so slippery and napoleonic that they felt like they had to make him a big part of the story. i think originally they intended for "henry gale" to take them back to the guy that led the others- but they fell in love w/emerson and decided to make him the main dude.

LonghornDub · 02-26-2009, 07:25 PM

Ben is one slippery dude. I love it.

u2sarajevo · 02-26-2009, 08:56 PM

I'm quite certain that when Kate was talking to Sun (I think in the little prince episode) she mentioned Locke coming to see her.

edit: although I cannot find any supporting evidence of that. huh.

XERXES · 02-26-2009, 09:47 PM

i re-watched it again tonight. wow. why the crap does ben kill locke right after he saves his life? is it bc he is given the information he needs (the name "eloise hawking") and thus locke is of no use to him any longer?

LonghornDub · 02-26-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XERXES

i re-watched it again tonight. wow. why the crap does ben kill locke right after he saves his life? is it bc he is given the information he needs (the name "eloise hawking") and thus locke is of no use to him any longer?

It's either that, or the fact that Locke knew her name for some reason freaked him out. I'd lean towards the former.

I hope there's a good explanation (I'm sure there is), cause otherwise it's certainly a very odd thing to do.

Ninkobei · 02-27-2009, 07:34 AM

perhaps ben didnt want Locke meeting ms. hawking..he might give her information that ben didnt want her to have. there's really an endless line of speculation on that and I hope the writers actually give the answer.

mary · 02-27-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It's either that, or the fact that Locke knew her name for some reason freaked him out. I'd lean towards the former.

I hope there's a good explanation (I'm sure there is), cause otherwise it's certainly a very odd thing to do.

I'm leaning the other way.

First of all, I'm finding it hard to believe that Ben didn't know about Eloise and the Lamp Post the entire time.

Secondly, the first time Ben tried to kill Locke, it was because Locke could "see" Jacob.

Flacolaco · 02-27-2009, 09:48 AM

Is it possible that by killing John, Ben's claim to the island leadership is somehow legitimized?

(Thinking Harry Potter here, like how one must "beat" the owner of a wand in order for the wand to transfer its allegiance)

Or maybe he just wanted to do it himself...just because he wanted the pleasure.

alexamenos · 02-27-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Secondly, the first time Ben tried to kill Locke, it was because Locked could "see" Jacob.

crap...I completely forgot that this wasn't the first time that Ben tried to kill Locke. Now I'm gonna have to rethink this.

jthig32 · 02-27-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

I'm leaning the other way.

First of all, I'm finding it hard to believe that Ben didn't know about Eloise and the Lamp Post the entire time.

Secondly, the first time Ben tried to kill Locke, it was because Locke could "see" Jacob.

I dunno, Ben seemed awfully surprised to find out that Eloise was Farraday's mom. Doesn't mean he didn't know about her, but it seems to suggest that he doesn't necessarily know all the ins and outs of all this.