Mavs Get Freaking Shawn Marion!!!! - Page 15 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

see post 552

To me...Cuban probably told Kidd we're getting Marion or somesuch...and we want Marion greatly (just my guess). I think the power is in The Raps court. (Because we probably want Marion more than Colangelo wants to be loyal to Marion)

dirno2000 · 07-08-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I'm really impressed with the Raptors loyalty to Marion...

It's not just loyalty to the player it's also not wanting to burn bridges with Dan Fegan. I honestly think he's the biggest thing we have working in our favor as far as getting this thing done. If Marion ends up with an MLE deal after reportedly turning down 4 year $32MM then he's failed his client. That something that could be used against him going forward.

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It's not just loyalty to the player it's also not wanting to burn bridges with Dan Fegan. I honestly think he's the biggest thing we have working in our favor as far as getting this thing done. If Marion ends up with an MLE deal after reportedly turning down 4 year $32MM then he's failed his client. That something that could be used against him going forward.

good additional point.

SMC0007 · 07-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Banks, you suck. I hope we get Marion but we have Kidd, Barea, Boob wah. To throw that guy in there for 4. something per would suck. Mostly because we don't need him whatsoever and could use the roster spot.

BGMaverick9 · 07-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

To me...Cuban probably told Kidd we're getting Marion or somesuch...and we want Marion greatly (just my guess). I think the power is in The Raps court. (Because we probably want Marion more than Colangelo wants to be loyal to Marion)

I agree, but I wouldn't say that this was the only idea Cuban had in mind...Marion or Bust. If Bank of Cuban isn't interested in bringing in Banks, how many teams do you think would actually be willing to then? If I'm Cuban and I have a list of players and I think I have a chance at them and don't have to deal with this roadblock, then you walk. Maybe it's more faith in Cuban's creativity than should be there.

If you can walk away from the deal, you have the leverage.

sefant77 · 07-08-2009, 11:14 AM

If that deal blows Marion probably takes the MLE for a year and trying 2010 to get a normal deal.

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If you can walk away from the deal, you have the leverage.

both can walk away...and then Marion walks. I know what you mean though.

BGMaverick9 · 07-08-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

both can walk away...and then Marion walks. I know what you mean though.

Yeah, we'll just have to see what happens today or tomorrow, Should be interesting.

jthig32 · 07-08-2009, 11:21 AM

I really don't think either side has that much leverage. Toronto can just walk away without much collateral damage, and Dallas can walk away with a valuable trade chip still in place.

The only people that really lose in the aftermath of this deal falling through are Marion and us (Mav fans). Toronto fans couldn't care less one way or the other on this.

However, we've seen evidence on more than one occasion that Cuban tends to put his blinders on and do whatever needs to be done to get what he decides he wants (see the Kidd deal). So Toronto can probably manufacture false leverage from Cubes. If this deal happens I think it will be with us taking on Banks.

darkwitzki · 07-08-2009, 11:22 AM

I say no to Banks, we need to develop boohbwah over here and be ready for the 2010 free agency.. I'll take Humpries instead..

BGMaverick9 · 07-08-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I really don't think either side has that much leverage. Toronto can just walk away without much collateral damage, and Dallas can walk away with a valuable trade chip still in place.

The only people that really lose in the aftermath of this deal falling through are Marion and us (Mav fans). Toronto fans couldn't care less one way or the other on this.

And apparently I won't be able to step foot outside of my house because half the people here want to kill me. That's collateral damage right there.

This situations makes me have a lot more faith we can get a talented player for the chip. For a while I had my doubts that we'd have to settle for a moderate bench player.

LSMF · 07-08-2009, 11:27 AM

Why am I optimistic this trade will get done?

SeriousSummer · 07-08-2009, 11:27 AM

Could the Mavs send Stackhouse, Barrea, Williams (or maybe George) to Toronto for S&T Marion, Banks, Humphreys? At least then the surplusage of point guards isn't so great and Toronto get its cap space.

Justin Credible · 07-08-2009, 11:28 AM

I have to say.. I'm officially against this trade if Banks is involved. I was already against this trade in the beginning because I don't believe that Marion will play up to what others believe he will (18ppg? idk about that) and that we're using our best chip in the trade to acquire yet another SF without getting someone to fill the gap at the 2 that we have.

J Ho could very well slide down to the 2 offensively, but he really doesn't seem to be capable of defending other 2's in the league so that's a defensive gap.

With Banks added to this deal you're cutting into the 2010 plans pretty significantly, and that's already been squashed by Stern trying to lower the cap far enough (over the next 2 seasons) to try and squash some of the potential blockbuster trades that could go down. So that means that the Mavs would almost have to give up on any spectacular 2010 plans just to take on an aging Marion that's very obviously on the decline? Count me out.. Marion's a great player and could help this team, but he surely doesn't fill the gap that we need filled..

Kidd Karma · 07-08-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I really don't think either side has that much leverage. Toronto can just walk away without much collateral damage, and Dallas can walk away with a valuable trade chip still in place.

The only people that really lose in the aftermath of this deal falling through are Marion and us (Mav fans). Toronto fans couldn't care less one way or the other on this.

However, we've seen evidence on more than one occasion that Cuban tends to put his blinders on and do whatever needs to be done to get what he decides he wants (see the Kidd deal). So Toronto can probably manufacture false leverage from Cubes. If this deal happens I think it will be with us taking on Banks.

I agree, why take on Banks, when this is just a pure sign and trade. We are helping Marion out, helping Toronto out, yet if we balk at both, we still walk away with the trade chip. The mud is on Colangelo's hands for trying to get a buddy a pay day..not ours, we have not agreed on any contract specifics. I'd say walk away, we have another month or so to work on the Stack chip. This is in no way comparable to the Kidd trade, in which it was all but Devean done. There were feelings to soothe...etc. Right now, the ball is in colangelo's hand.

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSMF

Why am I optimistic this trade will get done?

bc it probably will? both teams seem to want it to happen.

jthig32 · 07-08-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

J Ho could very well slide down to the 2 offensively, but he really doesn't seem to be capable of defending other 2's in the league so that's a defensive gap.

I think I'm going to abandon my Damp crusade and start beating my head against my desk every time someone says this.

Honestly.

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think I'm going to abandon my Damp crusade and start beating my head against my desk every time someone says this.

Honestly.

you are far too willing to hurt your desk, my friend.

SMC0007 · 07-08-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

I have to say.. I'm officially against this trade if Banks is involved. I was already against this trade in the beginning because I don't believe that Marion will play up to what others believe he will (18ppg? idk about that) and that we're using our best chip in the trade to acquire yet another SF without getting someone to fill the gap at the 2 that we have.

J Ho could very well slide down to the 2 offensively, but he really doesn't seem to be capable of defending other 2's in the league so that's a defensive gap.

With Banks added to this deal you're cutting into the 2010 plans pretty significantly, and that's already been squashed by Stern trying to lower the cap far enough (over the next 2 seasons) to try and squash some of the potential blockbuster trades that could go down. So that means that the Mavs would almost have to give up on any spectacular 2010 plans just to take on an aging Marion that's very obviously on the decline? Count me out.. Marion's a great player and could help this team, but he surely doesn't fill the gap that we need filled..

The move wouldn't be for the 18ppg (wherever that came from). It is more for the length and athleticism, who knows what ppg he would have here, it would be more than AWright tho. It is a definite upgrade on our roster by far.

Jho CAN and HAS guarded SG's in this league and as well as anyone else on our team. So there is no defensive gap.

Kidd Karma · 07-08-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

I have to say.. I'm officially against this trade if Banks is involved. I was already against this trade in the beginning because I don't believe that Marion will play up to what others believe he will (18ppg? idk about that) and that we're using our best chip in the trade to acquire yet another SF without getting someone to fill the gap at the 2 that we have.

J Ho could very well slide down to the 2 offensively, but he really doesn't seem to be capable of defending other 2's in the league so that's a defensive gap.

With Banks added to this deal you're cutting into the 2010 plans pretty significantly, and that's already been squashed by Stern trying to lower the cap far enough (over the next 2 seasons) to try and squash some of the potential blockbuster trades that could go down. So that means that the Mavs would almost have to give up on any spectacular 2010 plans just to take on an aging Marion that's very obviously on the decline? Count me out.. Marion's a great player and could help this team, but he surely doesn't fill the gap that we need filled..

Wasn't 2010 going to see a big hit on the cap level, this year it's 57, I read somewhere estimates put it at 52....but still once we chased down Kidd and Gortat on multi year deals, that was at least 14 million added to next year's cap. If we're not over, we would be up against it.
Dirk 20 million
Jet 9 Million
Carroll 4.5 million
Barea 2 mill
Beaubois 1 mill

With Kidd and Gortat that's about 50 million. Plus toss in the 2010 MLE, if the MLE added to your salaries puts you over the cap, then you are over the cap for the year and you would be allotted an MLE to use.

greensborohill · 07-08-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

I have to say.. I'm officially against this trade if Banks is involved. I was already against this trade in the beginning because I don't believe that Marion will play up to what others believe he will (18ppg? idk about that) and that we're using our best chip in the trade to acquire yet another SF without getting someone to fill the gap at the 2 that we have.

J Ho could very well slide down to the 2 offensively, but he really doesn't seem to be capable of defending other 2's in the league so that's a defensive gap.

With Banks added to this deal you're cutting into the 2010 plans pretty significantly, and that's already been squashed by Stern trying to lower the cap far enough (over the next 2 seasons) to try and squash some of the potential blockbuster trades that could go down. So that means that the Mavs would almost have to give up on any spectacular 2010 plans just to take on an aging Marion that's very obviously on the decline? Count me out.. Marion's a great player and could help this team, but he surely doesn't fill the gap that we need filled..

We already have a built-in 2010 plan. . . it's called Dampier.

sike · 07-08-2009, 11:36 AM

can JHo guard Kobe or Wade? Nah...but thats a large club.

I'd be happy with Marion getting 14ppg, 8+rpg, 1 bpg, and 1.5 spg.

Dirkenstien · 07-08-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greensborohill

We already have a built-in 2010 plan. . . it's called Dampier.

THIS

Plus, getting Marion now would make this an even more attractive location for a superstar like Bosh come 2010 Free Agency time. I mean come on, you're telling me Bosh wouldn't want to play in his home town Dallas team for more money than he can get anywhere else (S&T), and for a team featuring Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Howard, Terry, Gortat and more?! We'd have to be one of the favorites to win it all.

LSMF · 07-08-2009, 11:41 AM

Well im outta here, hopefully next time I log on Marion is a Mav...

BGMaverick9 · 07-08-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

you are far too willing to hurt your desk, my friend.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sike again.

sefant77 · 07-08-2009, 11:53 AM

I hope there is a backup plan.

Doing a S&T Bass-Gortat and getting Marion with the MLE and giving him a year more to make up.

grndmstr_c · 07-08-2009, 11:56 AM

From Sefko's chat going on right now:

Quote:

Well, I have it on good authority that the Mavericks think they are on the lip of the cup with the Marion stuff.
That's what we call in the business breaking news.

He'd spoken to Cuban just a few minutes before he wrote this.

Edit: right after that he gave it 50/50 odds of getting done. So perhaps nothing new, other than that it's not dead.

Justin Credible · 07-08-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

The move wouldn't be for the 18ppg (wherever that came from). It is more for the length and athleticism, who knows what ppg he would have here, it would be more than AWright tho. It is a definite upgrade on our roster by far.

Jho CAN and HAS guarded SG's in this league and as well as anyone else on our team. So there is no defensive gap.

Maybe I just ignore his production (even though I've always been a J Ho fan) because I was eager to see us pick up a true SG for once.. With picking up Gortat we might have filled the 5 for the first time in a while and it would've been nice to use "The Chip" on a starting 2 that made an impact on the team.

Then again, maybe it's because I'm not a Marion fan..

Quote:

Originally Posted by greensborohill

We already have a built-in 2010 plan. . . it's called Dampier.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Wasn't 2010 going to see a big hit on the cap level, this year it's 57, I read somewhere estimates put it at 52....but still once we chased down Kidd and Gortat on multi year deals, that was at least 14 million added to next year's cap. If we're not over, we would be up against it.
Dirk 20 million
Jet 9 Million
Carroll 4.5 million
Barea 2 mill
Beaubois 1 mill

With Kidd and Gortat that's about 50 million. Plus toss in the 2010 MLE, if the MLE added to your salaries puts you over the cap, then you are over the cap for the year and you would be allotted an MLE to use.

Suddenly the Damp chip loses value. Yes in a trade it still is an awesome chip to have, but do you really see Cuban paying $40m/yr (LT) for someone like Chris Bosh? Seems like as it stands right now we're already on the brink of just throwing Damp away, especially if we add additional useless contracts (like Banks).

Like I said, maybe it's because I'm simply not a Marion fan and was looking forward to such a valuable trade chip being used for a more potent offensive player to throw next to Dirk. Dirk essentially had to carry the team on his shoulders last season and was the only reliable scorer on the team. I mean Jet was just as reliable as Dirk, but Jet was also injured at a very important time in the season. Josh Howard was injured last season and we don't know how well he'll be next season.. It just seems that as much as we definitely need his (Marion's) defense, we also need a potent offensive player.

I'll say this right now; I'm a pessimist. I understand that given his contract that Josh Howard will probably have a fantastic season, and I understand that Marion's numbers will definitely improve when he gets beside a distributor like Kidd.. Gortat could be the 5 that we've always wanted, and Barea is still improving. I recognize these things.. That being said I also recognize that, as of now, Dirk has no backup, Hollins/Singleton still needs to be signed, Carroll is a waste of cap/bench and needs to be gone, Wright dramatically needs to improve his offensive game, Jet is a defensive liability, and to top all of that off Dirk's window is closing. I'd just like to see some kind of answer placed next to Dirk so that our team is truly a contender. If that's Marion then I apologize and I'll admit that I am/was 110% wrong.. But I just don't see Marion being the piece that pushes this team over the top, especially if we have to take on more salary than needed in the process.

Kidd Karma · 07-08-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

Suddenly the Damp chip loses value. Yes in a trade it still is an awesome chip to have, but do you really see Cuban paying $40m/yr (LT) for someone like Chris Bosh? Seems like as it stands right now we're already on the brink of just throwing Damp away, especially if we add additional useless contracts (like Banks).

Like I said, maybe it's because I'm simply not a Marion fan and was looking forward to such a valuable trade chip being used for a more potent offensive player to throw next to Dirk. Dirk essentially had to carry the team on his shoulders last season and was the only reliable scorer on the team. I mean Jet was just as reliable as Dirk, but Jet was also injured at a very important time in the season. Josh Howard was injured last season and we don't know how well he'll be next season.. It just seems that as much as we definitely need his (Marion's) defense, we also need a potent offensive player.

I'll say this right now; I'm a pessimist. I understand that given his contract that Josh Howard will probably have a fantastic season, and I understand that Marion's numbers will definitely improve when he gets beside a distributor like Kidd.. Gortat could be the 5 that we've always wanted, and Barea is still improving. I recognize these things.. That being said I also recognize that, as of now, Dirk has no backup, Hollins/Singleton still needs to be signed, Carroll is a waste of cap/bench and needs to be gone, Wright dramatically needs to improve his offensive game, Jet is a defensive liability, and to top all of that off Dirk's window is closing. I'd just like to see some kind of answer placed next to Dirk so that our team is truly a contender. If that's Marion then I apologize and I'll admit that I am/was 110% wrong.. But I just don't see Marion being the piece that pushes this team over the top, especially if we have to take on more salary than needed in the process.

I stand corrected, if this is Cuban and Nelson's ammo all along:

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1812

Just read this and apparently it does not matter if we are over the cap. With the Damp chip, it works in the same manner as the Stack chip except there is no buyout. It's a team option with an August deadline. With 12% raises, we're looking at 14.4 million by summer 2010, plus in trading a player, we can accept anything 125% of the outgoing salary....meaning we can accept up to 18 million in return for the Damp chip......interesting article.

joemoeschmoe · 07-08-2009, 12:13 PM

Josh used to be able to guard 2's (I remember him being put on Nash during the 2006 run), but lately he hasn't been able to. Basically, his lateral quickness has been significantly hampered. Hopefully that is fixed with his surgery, but call me doubtful.

I had a major ankle injury about 4 years ago and it still affects me today -- just had a 2nd surgery that will hopefully get me back on the court. What really hampered me, and seems to be the same from watching Josh, is not so much the lack of flexibility in the ankle, but the inability to get into the proper defensive stance without extreme pain. When not in a proper defensive stance it is difficult to move laterally quickly. At some point, I just stopped trusting the ankle and got really "lazy" on defense. I'm not claiming that my injury and basketball "career" follows exactly with Josh. I am claiming that the affects of the injury seem familiar after watching Josh be poorly positioned and respond slowly to opponent moves that there is/was a serious issue with the ankle hampering his ability to D up.

Did none of you who are claiming he can still guard 2's notice that he was standing almost straight up on defense usually?

Josh is going to have trouble with most 2's unless his ankle is made better. The quicker they are, the easier they will blow by him.

I'll admit, towards the end of the season and in the playoffs he was a little better with his defense. It also looked like he was pushing himself into a lot more pain regularly in order to get lower to the ground in a better stance.

All that being said, Marion can and should guard the 2's if this deal goes through and Josh stays.

mavs777 · 07-08-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greensborohill

We'll see. . . =)

Gortat really stands out in that group

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-08-2009, 12:20 PM

Say no to Banks. I think it's time for Cuban to put his foot down and not give in to letting GMs run up the price.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-08-2009, 12:31 PM

Latest from Sefko's chat

"Well, the part that I can tell you about is that they feel they are close to completing the Marion deal. It's still got some entanglements, but these things are never easy. And Gortat will be signed and sealed within hours. As for matching, Cuban, like everybody else in the league, doesn't think Orlando will do it. But again, you never know for sure."

http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archi...die-sefko.html

Justin Credible · 07-08-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

I stand corrected, if this is Cuban and Nelson's ammo all along:

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1812

Just read this and apparently it does not matter if we are over the cap. With the Damp chip, it works in the same manner as the Stack chip except there is no buyout. It's a team option with an August deadline. With 12% raises, we're looking at 14.4 million by summer 2010, plus in trading a player, we can accept anything 125% of the outgoing salary....meaning we can accept up to 18 million in return for the Damp chip......interesting article.

I just personally find it hard to believe that we're going to sign someone for $18m+ (given filler in trade) while we're going to be in LT territory before even pursuing that.

The projected cap for 2010-11 is $50.4m, and as it stands right now (without Marion/Banks?/Gortat/Ross/Bass?/Hollins?) the Mavs are at $50.6m. That means that if they signed.. oh.. D Wade at $20m/yr they'll have to pay $40m/yr for him. Wade/Bosh/LeBron/etc are all going to be looking for max contracts, and for the Mavs that means paying double for them.. I think that's further into LT territory than Cuban ever dreamed of being.

greensborohill · 07-08-2009, 12:41 PM

Joe Johnson would be nice!!

greensborohill · 07-08-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Credible

I just personally find it hard to believe that we're going to sign someone for $18m+ (given filler in trade) while we're going to be in LT territory before even pursuing that.

The projected cap for 2010-11 is $50.4m, and as it stands right now (without Marion/Banks?/Gortat/Ross/Bass?/Hollins?) the Mavs are at $50.6m. That means that if they signed.. oh.. D Wade at $20m/yr they'll have to pay $40m/yr for him. Wade/Bosh/LeBron/etc are all going to be looking for max contracts, and for the Mavs that means paying double for them.. I think that's further into LT territory than Cuban ever dreamed of being.

I guess we'll see.

As you said, you are a glass half-empty kinda guy. . .

Dnowit41 · 07-08-2009, 12:48 PM

Well heres the latest update on the Marion trade:

A potential sign-and-trade between the Raptors and Mavericks involving Shawn Marion appears to have reached a standstill.

The deal is stuck on two points, according to the Dallas Morning News.

An Eastern Conference executive said that one of the points is the inclusion of Toronto point guard Marcus Banks in the deal.

However, Banks is due $9 million over the next two seasons, which would impact the Mavericks' ability to pursue stars in next summer's free agent market.

The other problem is that Toronto doesn't want to take back any salary in exchange for Marion, who is an unrestricted free agent.

If the Raptors won't agree to take Jerry Stackhouse, who has a $7 million contract with $2 million in guarantees, then a third team would have to be found to facilitate the deal.

Flacolaco · 07-08-2009, 12:48 PM

I don't for the life of me understand how the NBA salary cap (57.7 million) is so close to the NHL salary cap ($56.8 million). Obviously the NBA cap isn't a hard cap like the NHL, but still...it astounds me.

jthig32 · 07-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Reading Sefko talk about the cap makes my head hurt.

Just in case anyone reads Sefko's full chat, Sefko is wrong; the Magic can NOT sign and trade Gortat at this point. So that is not something giving them extra motivation to stretch out there decision.

sefant77 · 07-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Im pretty sure we will take Banks too not to blow it.

Of course the 2010 payroll with be crappy with that extra Banks 4mio (+4LT). But if there is Sammy Superstar for Damp outside Cuban will pull the trigger for sure.

2010:
Dirk 21
Sammy Superstar 16
Josh 12
Kidd 8
Terry 10
Marion 9
Gortat 6
Carroll 4
Banks 4
Barea 2
-------
92 mio (Lakers will be this season 93-95 if they keep Odom for 9-10)

BUT its an absolut (!) contender team and 2011 it will look allready better:
Banks gone
Dirks new contract starting like at 17-18
Josh new contract around 7-8
Terrys last year 11mio not fuelly guarenteed

Thats probably like 20 mio less. Could be also that Dirk sign allready in 2010 a new smaller contract to make Sammy Superstar possible.