To Melo or not to Melo - Page 15 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

j0Shi · 07-04-2014, 06:44 PM

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...armelo-anthony

Quote:

According to two people with knowledge of the situation, the Knicks are confident about their standing in the sweepstakes and consider the Bulls the only real threat among the many suitors. A decision is expected from Anthony by Monday, though the ever-present fluidity of free agency means there is no definitive timeline. The people spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the private nature of the negotiations.

I thought that was the situation all along. He can choose between best title odds and most money. Tyson altered it a bit, but I guess even athletes know that the way to the Finals is that much shorter in the East.
And even if, Houston with Dwight/Harden/Parsons also has more to offer talent-wise.

Melonhead · 07-05-2014, 10:58 AM

We can assume now itll take a lot to pull Parsons away from our rival.

CanadianMavsFan · 07-05-2014, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

We can assume now itll take a lot to pull Parsons away from our rival.

I don't thin it's worth to attempt for the Mavs. Seems just the kind of move Morey would salivate over. I'm sure many of us still remember the Gortat fiasco. Shoot for Ariza, Deng, or Thomas. If one of them can be had on a cheaper than expected deal then you fill out the rest with specialists and maybe a big man (Ed Davis, Okafor, etc.)

sefant77 · 07-05-2014, 11:50 AM

Just sign the damn max deal with NY so everybody can move on. It was obvious that Melo would stay in the east - Knicks or Bulls

jamaljasonandjimmy · 07-05-2014, 08:16 PM

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/05/lak...free-agent-nba

jamaljasonandjimmy · 07-05-2014, 08:26 PM

http://thesmokingcuban.com/2014/07/0...-parsons-mavs/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qamC_3VItH4

Underdog · 07-10-2014, 11:06 AM

‏@RealGM: @ESPNSteinLine confirmed on ESPN Radio that Carmelo Anthony is expected to re-sign with Knicks either today or Friday.

jamaljasonandjimmy · 07-12-2014, 08:22 PM

http://arizonasports.com/216/1749931...ng-with-Knicks

sefant77 · 01-04-2015, 12:17 AM

Some fun Rondo discussions going around page 10+

EricaLubarsky · 01-04-2015, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Wright
future 1st
big TE

Well, some assets we have. And like i said, Rondos value is low. Kind of unhappy in Boston, UFA in 2015, coming back from injury...Rondo didnt net them a high pick in the lottery

Whoa.

Did you bump this just to show off your uncanny prediction?

Underdog · 01-04-2015, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

While everyone is waiting for melo and james we should be going for parsons and another. Damn i wish we could get rondo somehow.

Wizard.

jthig32 · 01-04-2015, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Whoa.

Did you bump this just to show off your uncanny prediction?

That is pretty amazing, huh?

sefant77 · 01-04-2015, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Whoa.

Did you bump this just to show off your uncanny prediction?

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 01:36 PM

Carmelo is a perfect example of the RWB argument. Transcendent talent who lacks the championship qualities to lead a team to a ring.

grndmstr_c · 01-04-2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Carmelo is a perfect example of the RWB argument. Transcendent talent who lacks the championship qualities to lead a team to a ring.

Carmelo took his team to the Western Conference Finals in '09, and in the six games played against the eventual champion Lakers scored 27.5 ppg on 54.6% true shooting. I don't like him, and he's a mess right now, but there was a time when he was absolutely capable of being the best player on a championship team IMO.

endrity · 01-04-2015, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Carmelo took his team to the Western Conference Finals in '09, and in the six games played against the eventual champion Lakers scored 27.5 ppg on 54.6% true shooting. I don't like him, and he's a mess right now, but there was a time when he was absolutely capable of being the best player on a championship team IMO.

A lot of players do have a great series or postseason. The trick to being a truly elite, franchise player, is to do that year after year like Dirk and Duncan and Kobe and LeBron have. CWebb, TMac, even someone like Gilbert Arenas did have a great series at one point or another in their career.

grndmstr_c · 01-04-2015, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

A lot of players do have a great series or postseason. The trick to being a truly elite, franchise player, is to do that year after year like Dirk and Duncan and Kobe and LeBron have. CWebb, TMac, even someone like Gilbert Arenas did have a great series at one point or another in their career.

More players have elite, franchise-caliber peaks than are able to sustain those peaks or win a championship while performing at that peak level. Plenty of room for guys like Melo, pre-injury CWebb and TMac, etc. to have perhaps been good enough at one time to win a championship even without them ever having been able to do so, and without them having been able to sustain their at-one-time elite levels of play the way Dirk, Duncan et al have. Really not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp.

endrity · 01-04-2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

More players have elite, franchise-caliber peaks than are able to sustain those peaks or win a championship while performing at that peak level. Plenty of room for guys like Melo, pre-injury CWebb and TMac, etc. to have perhaps been good enough at one time to win a championship even without them ever having been able to do so, and without them having been able to sustain their at-one-time elite levels of play the way Dirk, Duncan et al have. Really not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp.

No I grasp that, and for some players it did actually happen during their short lived peeks, like Rasheed in 04, or to a certain extent Hakeem who really performed over and beyond the rest of his career in those two title years. In many ways, even Shaq reached a level in 01-03 that he never really approached again. Whereas a guy like Dirk had truly great playoffs in 03, 06, 09, 11. That's 8 years apart. With a good enough team (and appropriate officiating) that guy gives you a great shot for a title in any of those years.

However since the 09 playoffs, there has been very little to suggest that Melo can repeat those performances again. Which makes trading for him, and making him your franchise player, a risky proposition at this point unless he gets a lot of support like the 08 Celtics did.

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

More players have elite, franchise-caliber peaks than are able to sustain those peaks or win a championship while performing at that peak level. Plenty of room for guys like Melo, pre-injury CWebb and TMac, etc. to have perhaps been good enough at one time to win a championship even without them ever having been able to do so, and without them having been able to sustain their at-one-time elite levels of play the way Dirk, Duncan et al have. Really not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp.

He didn't win for a reason. Neither did any of the other players you listed. I don't think TMAC could win as the best player of his team. And he didnt. Neither will RWB if he's shooting 21 times a game.

grndmstr_c · 01-04-2015, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

However since the 09 playoffs, there has been very little to suggest that Melo can repeat those performances again. Which makes trading for him, and making him your franchise player, a risky proposition at this point unless he gets a lot of support like the 08 Celtics did.

I'm only talking about Melo back during those peak years for Denver. He definitely looks nothing like a franchise player right now.

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm only talking about Melo back during those peak years for Denver. He definitely looks nothing like a franchise player right now.

What player fits your description that has won a championship in the last 25 years? Rwb won't win one... not playing like he does.

endrity · 01-04-2015, 05:20 PM

With a good coach, maybe he can develop into a Billups or Parker type player, a scoring, not highly assisting PG, who still does a good enough job running the team. Maybe...

Actually watching OKC right now I am often reminded of the 07 or 08 Mavs, where the lack of coaching on offense was obvious. They get by because they have a truly elite player leading them, but that's about it. But it shows how important a great coach is, and especially for a young talent who should be told how to play the game. I believe Parker would have had a much lesser career if it wasn't for Pop managing him early in his career.

grndmstr_c · 01-04-2015, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

He didn't win for a reason. Neither did any of the other players you listed. I don't think TMAC could win as the best player of his team. And he didnt. Neither will RWB if he's shooting 21 times a game.

I disagree that they couldn't have won as the best players on their respective teams. And here's the thing: because we're talking about a setting where either outcome of every single game has a non-zero probability, I'm right. It is, or should be possible to debate the relative merits of specific players without having to draw this artificial and indefensible line in the sand. If you say you'd have been stunned to see Melo, Webber etc. win a title, that's fine; opinions will vary. But the notion that such an event was an impossibility because those players are somehow qualitatively different from guys who have won a title is silly.

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I disagree that they couldn't have won as the best players on their respective teams. And here's the thing: because we're talking about a setting where either outcome of every single game has a non-zero probability, I'm right. It is, or should be possible to debate the relative merits of specific players without having to draw this artificial and indefensible line in the sand. If you say you'd have been stunned to see Melo, Webber etc. win a title, that's fine; opinions will vary. But the notion that such an event was an impossibility because those players are somehow qualitatively different from guys who have won a title is silly.

OK you have a point there and I will do as you suggested. I would be stunned. I'm not a fan of the type of ball that me players such as RWB and Melo play. They are undeniable talents, but questionable leaders and much harder to build a team around. Great players adapt their game to their teams needs. See Pippin, Duncan, Gasol, and Terry. Maybe it's not all RWB fault. Maybe he needs a coach who will teach him how to play the 1 spot.

Five-ofan · 01-04-2015, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

He didn't win for a reason. Neither did any of the other players you listed. I don't think TMAC could win as the best player of his team. And he didnt. Neither will RWB if he's shooting 21 times a game.

I don't see how any mavs fan can think tmac couldn't have won a title. Did you watch the 2005 first round? He didn't win a ring but he was absolutely good enough to win one. He would have had to have caught lightning in a bottle but he was a monster.

If dirk had broken an ankle in 2011 and not won a title would it have changed what he was capable of?

Five-ofan · 01-04-2015, 07:58 PM

As for Westbrook there is a ton of evidence to suggest that scoring PGs are more likely to win titles than pass first PGs. The last star traditional pg to win a title was magic Johnson. Rondo and Kidd are the only other traditional PGs to win titles since then and neither was a star when they won.

markus1234 · 01-04-2015, 08:04 PM

if you want to win a title you need to find the right balance between impacting the game and staying healthy/productive till the finals.

It's quite easy to be a monster for ~50 games and finish the season with ~30ppg. It is much tougher to score ~25ppg till June...

Lestat_1795 · 01-04-2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As for Westbrook there is a ton of evidence to suggest that scoring PGs are more likely to win titles than pass first PGs. The last star traditional pg to win a title was magic Johnson. Rondo and Kidd are the only other traditional PGs to win titles since then and neither was a star when they won.

And when was the last time, a so called scoring PG won a title?

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As for Westbrook there is a ton of evidence to suggest that scoring PGs are more likely to win titles than pass first PGs. The last star traditional pg to win a title was magic Johnson. Rondo and Kidd are the only other traditional PGs to win titles since then and neither was a star when they won.

Um I don't think averaging 10+ assists a game is a requirement to be considered a pass first PG. I think instead it should be just that the individual tends to pass before shoot; perhaps not averaging north of 18 shots a game? I consider Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups as close to a hybrid as it comes. They aren't pass first, but they aren't scorers either as to the likes of Curry and RWB. The Lakers, Mavericks, Celtics, and Bulls were all led by pass first PGs. I would argue the Heat are void as Chalmers doesn't really count as either ( sub 8 shots a game in an offense that was made up by the trinity comp).

I'm really interested in this "ton of evidence" that you speak of.

endrity · 01-04-2015, 08:25 PM

Parker and Billups. Isiah before that.

EricaLubarsky · 01-04-2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As for Westbrook there is a ton of evidence to suggest that scoring PGs are more likely to win titles than pass first PGs. The last star traditional pg to win a title was magic Johnson. Rondo and Kidd are the only other traditional PGs to win titles since then and neither was a star when they won.

I'd love to see your evidence. Quickly scanning the list of PGs over the last few years, I don't see much evidence of that. Then again I don't see ANY superstar PGs. Kidd is about as close as you get, but even he was in his sunset years. Parker has always been a start but never a superstar.

Tony Parker x4 - ?
Rajon Rondo X1 - pass first
Jason Kidd x1 - pass first
Mario Chalmers X2 - pass first
Jason Williams X1 - pass first
Derek Fisher X2 - pass first
Chauncey Billups X1 - 12 FGA to 6ast

Lestat_1795 · 01-04-2015, 08:35 PM

So in the last 10 years only one scoring PG won a title(Parker)
and two pass first PG won titles ( Rondo, Kidd).

grndmstr_c · 01-04-2015, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lestat_1795

So in the last 10 years only one scoring PG won four title(Parker)
and two pass first PG won titles ( Rondo, Kidd).

Fixed that.

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lestat_1795

So in the last 10 years only one scoring PG won a title(Parker)
and two pass first PG won titles ( Rondo, Kidd).

Parker is not a scoring PG like RWB. Plus he continuously plays to the teams collective offensive strengths.

AGAIN- Would love any information that could support the idea that "Score first" PG's are more likely to win titles now.

jthig32 · 01-04-2015, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Parker is not a scoring PG like RWB. Plus he continuously plays to the teams collective offensive strengths.

AGAIN- Would love any information that could support the idea that "Score first" PG's are more likely to win titles now.

They are neither more or less likely. The PG that has the luxury of playing with (or being) a generational superstar is the most likely PG to win a title.

I find it funny that this exact conversation was taking place in another thread just yesterday.

hayth.james.g · 01-04-2015, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

They are neither more or less likely. The PG that has the luxury of playing with (or being) a generational superstar is the most likely PG to win a title.

I find it funny that this exact conversation was taking place in another thread just yesterday.

I agree with this, but I think that the PG that works his game to compliment that "superstar" is the player more likely to win a title. Again, back at RWB. Give Durant a PG like CP3 or Rondo and he has a title.

jthig32 · 01-04-2015, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I agree with this, but I think that the PG that works his game to compliment that "superstar" is the player more likely to win a title. Again, back at RWB. Give Durant a PG like CP3 or Rondo and he has a title.

Okey dokey.

spreedom · 01-04-2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I agree with this, but I think that the PG that works his game to compliment that "superstar" is the player more likely to win a title. Again, back at RWB. Give Durant a PG like CP3 or Rondo and he has a title.

I disagree... I think RWB and Durant complement each other really well. Honestly, some nights Durant looks relieved that he's playing next to an alpha dog type of personality like Westbrook.

Five-ofan · 01-05-2015, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'd love to see your evidence. Quickly scanning the list of PGs over the last few years, I don't see much evidence of that. Then again I don't see ANY superstar PGs. Kidd is about as close as you get, but even he was in his sunset years. Parker has always been a start but never a superstar.

Tony Parker x4 - ?
Rajon Rondo X1 - pass first
Jason Kidd x1 - pass first
Mario Chalmers X2 - pass first
Jason Williams X1 - pass first
Derek Fisher X2 - pass first
Chauncey Billups X1 - 12 FGA to 6ast

Parker is and always has been a score first pg, charmers is a scoring pg, Williams was just a caretaker. Same for fisher but he was a scorer more than a passer.

Five-ofan · 01-05-2015, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I agree with this, but I think that the PG that works his game to compliment that "superstar" is the player more likely to win a title. Again, back at RWB. Give Durant a PG like CP3 or Rondo and he has a title.

I find this funny because cp3 has played with a ton of talent throughout his career and has never won crap.