Offseason 2010 Thread

[Dirkenstien]

Knicks beat writer Frank Isola tweets Shaq's been talking about Dallas.

http://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/status/15870179796

I'm told Shaq telling friends he could end up with Mavs. Does that mean we add him to list of people LeBron's run out of Cleveland?

I wouldn't be against a Haywood / Shaq center combo. That's a lot of size to throw around at the 5 and an improvement at the backup spot over Damp.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

i am sorry... but all other arguments aside, THIS is just being willfully stupid.

Lebron James is rated on the Lebron James scale. nobody else is. Period. you should compare Lebron James' stats to Shawn Marions if and when somebody suggests trading the two players for each other (or when somebody tries to argue AGAINST that trade).

seriously.

Whats a Lebron scale?

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Anything else? You mean other than taking apart your post point for point? You used slash lines without any other supporting data to argue that a player had a good game. That, alone, is enough to make your argument baseless.

The majority of elite scoring swingmen saw serious dips in their output when they played the Mavs last season. Shawn Marion is much better than a "good" defender. If you want to disagree, fine, nothing against that (although it's one of the more baseless stances around here in a while). But don't bring completely faulty logic like that post above. You'd be better off just sticking with opinion.

You took my post apart point for point and did nothing with it. Then for the 4000th time opposed something someone else said with "insane, ridiculous, or silly". If you think 25pt/12friggin assists is not a great game you are a moron. I don't care who you are comparing it to. It's a great game. End of story.

Defending Shawn Marion because you think he's a stellar defender isn't worth all the time you spent on this argument. That is a fact, not opinion. I stand by my original post, F him and Kidd with regards to being PLAYERS WE CAN'T LIVE or WATCH WITHOUT.

[Nowitzki4President]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Knicks beat writer Frank Isola tweets Shaq's been talking about Dallas.

http://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/status/15870179796



I wouldn't be against a Haywood / Shaq center combo. That's a lot of size to throw around at the 5 and an improvement at the backup spot over Damp.

On what terms are Shaq and LeBron on anyway?

And just for the sake of wondering, what terms are Wade and Shaq on?

[SMC0007]

Or what terms are Shaqs legs on?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

If you think 25pt/12friggin assists is not a great game you are a moron. I don't care who you are comparing it to. It's a great game. End of story.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a bit. Because not only is 25 points and 12 assists not a great game for Lebron (in fact, technically speaking you could say it's average at best for him), but it's not enough information.

Spitting out slash lines is NOT enough information to determine whether someone had a great game. Anyone who has watched Dirk play this past decade should know this.

And don't act like I've brought nothing but petty insults to this discussion. I've brought some semblance of balance to your distorted "facts". Acting like Wade's game against us this year is in an argument against Marion's defensive abilities, when you can clearly see that he shot 8-24 in that game but fail to mention it is nothing short of distorting the facts to fit your opinion.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

The only two players I could care less about seeing back are Terry and Damp. The rest can have another shot to prove themselves as I see it, including Rick.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a bit. Because not only is 25 points and 12 assists not a great game for Lebron (in fact, technically speaking you could say it's average at best for him), but it's not enough information.

Spitting out slash lines is NOT enough information to determine whether someone had a great game. Anyone who has watched Dirk play this past decade should know this.

And don't act like I've brought nothing but petty insults to this discussion. I've brought some semblance of balance to your distorted "facts". Acting like Wade's game against us this year is in an argument against Marion's defensive abilities, when you can clearly see that he shot 8-24 in that game but fail to mention it is nothing short of distorting the facts to fit your opinion.

You talking about distorting the facts to fit ones opinion is great. You earlier said, "How is 25 pts from lebron great?" but conveniently forget to mention his 12 assists.

Your semblance of balance is, Joe Johnson probably wasn't being guarded by MArion. When actually yes he was. You lost that bet.

Don't assume that I think you are bringing only petty insults to this discussion. You do the same that almost everyone else does at times by twisting the point, tweaking the topic, straying from origin, to protect yourself and your opinion. You're no different. You just start off in such a bitter way 99% of the time as if your opinion is the end all FACT and then later cover your tracks behind your specific and technical guidelines of an argument. Now post back with guidelines quoted and say "guidelines; you mean facts?"

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The only two players I could care less about seeing back are Terry and Damp. The rest can have another shot to prove themselves as I see it, including Rick.

The origin of this cluster F got off the tracks a bit, I didn't mean it in that way, like I didn't want to see them back. I was responding to the bottom part of this post below. Then it blossomed into what it is.

here are only a few people that I want on this team when it's all said and done.

DIRK
RODDY B.
Kidd
Haywood
Marion


Everyone else is expendable in my eyes.


those in caps mean if they're not here, I will never watch a Mavs game again

[KINGBEEF]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

The origin of this cluster F got off the tracks a bit, I didn't mean it in that way, like I didn't want to see them back. I was responding to the bottom part of this post below. Then it blossomed into what it is.

yeah I believe everyone miss-understood the original posting, which came from me. I was basically saying that eveyone on this team is trade bait. I would just hate to see Kidd, Marion, & Haywood leave. If Roddy was a part of a deal that would get us Lebron well then I would understand Roddy getting traded too. If Dirk's not on this team then what's the use of watching the Mavs, since I would consider Dirk being THE MAVERICKS

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

You talking about distorting the facts to fit ones opinion is great. You earlier said, "How is 25 pts from lebron great?" but conveniently forget to mention his 12 assists.

Your semblance of balance is, Joe Johnson probably wasn't being guarded by MArion. When actually yes he was. You lost that bet.

Don't assume that I think you are bringing only petty insults to this discussion. You do the same that almost everyone else does at times by twisting the point, tweaking the topic, straying from origin, to protect yourself and your opinion. You're no different. You just start off in such a bitter way 99% of the time as if your opinion is the end all FACT and then later cover your tracks behind your specific and technical guidelines of an argument. Now post back with guidelines quoted and say "guidelines; you mean facts?"

C'mon dude. He averaged eight assists a game. He scored five points below his season average and picked up four extra assists. Nothing bout those two stats means "great" for him.

Regardless of where this conversation started, you're still trying to push the idea that Marion is not a great defender and his effect on the team's defense is overrated by me, _c and various others. And that's fine, opinions are how this board functions. But don't bring those ridiculous stats you brought and not expect them to be thrown back. I admitted that I was hazy on the Atlanta issue, and if you feel like watching a few highlights proves concretely that Marion spent most of the games guarding Johnson, fine. You have Johnson, Pierce and maybe JRich. I have Lebron, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, Wade and a litany of other examples.

And I also have what I and many others saw with our own eyes just about every time Shawn Marion took the floor for the Mavs this season. Unfortunately it came with a somewhat ugly offensive game (although he still put up perfectly respectable shooting numbers). But his defense is beyond question, imo.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The only two players I could care less about seeing back are Terry and Damp. The rest can have another shot to prove themselves as I see it, including Rick.

If i have to choose between Damp and Shaq as Haywoods backup i take Damp.

Shaq is done and freaking annoying and with all his attention bs probably also allready a lockerroom distraction.

But if James likes him and wants him in Dallas, sure...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

If i have to choose between Damp and Shaq as Haywoods backup i take Damp.

Shaq is done and freaking annoying and with all his attention bs probably also allready a lockerroom distraction.

I'm inclined to agree with this. The thing about Shaq is that he's at a point where his scoring ability is no longer good enough to make up for his lack of speed. That's not to say by any means that he isn't still a better player than Damp, but if we're going to replace Damp I'd much rather it be with a younger, faster, more athletic player who can run up and down the floor and won't get you killed on the pick-and-roll.

If we can't get a guy like that, I'd rather just re-sign Damp for a fraction of the price and not have to deal with the potential headache that Shaq represents.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by sefant77

If i have to choose between Damp and Shaq as Haywoods backup i take Damp.

Shaq is done and freaking annoying and with all his attention bs probably also allready a lockerroom distraction.

But if James likes him and wants him in Dallas, sure...

I disagree. The Mavs need a different option as the back-up. I feel Damp and Haywood bring too many similar things. The sad part is that if Shaq did sign here, he'd be the best low post offense the Mavs have ever had.

Plus, it's a smart business decision if Shaq comes on the cheap. The guy is a name that will sell a few tickets.

[sike]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The sad part is that if Shaq did sign here, he'd be the best low post offense the Mavs have ever had.

Considering where Shaq is at this point in his career...I'd say this man in his prime would disagree...

[jthig32]

I think people need to be careful assuming that Haywood will be back. I know I was adamant that he would be a few months ago, but over the past month or so there's been several hints (some not even that subtle) that the Mavs were less than thrilled with Haywood's motor, and that's scary considering he was playing for a contract.

I for one am absolutely not working under the assumption that Haywood will be back. And if I had to put money on it right now, I might lean toward betting that he's sent away in a sign and trade. But I wouldn't bet much on it.

[EricaLubarsky]

I think we need Haywood back but there is going to be some serious money out there unspent after LBJ re-signs with Cleveland and Wade goes to the Knicks or wherever. I don't doubt that Haywood gets an offer above what we care to spend for him.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think people need to be careful assuming that Haywood will be back. I know I was adamant that he would be a few months ago, but over the past month or so there's been several hints (some not even that subtle) that the Mavs were less than thrilled with Haywood's motor, and that's scary considering he was playing for a contract.

I for one am absolutely not working under the assumption that Haywood will be back. And if I had to put money on it right now, I might lean toward betting that he's sent away in a sign and trade. But I wouldn't bet much on it.

The problem is....who would be better? If the Mavs were serious about not bringing him back, then they'd better have a serious plan B. I wasn't as impressed with Haywood either, but you're kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't with that position.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think people need to be careful assuming that Haywood will be back. I know I was adamant that he would be a few months ago, but over the past month or so there's been several hints (some not even that subtle) that the Mavs were less than thrilled with Haywood's motor, and that's scary considering he was playing for a contract.

I for one am absolutely not working under the assumption that Haywood will be back. And if I had to put money on it right now, I might lean toward betting that he's sent away in a sign and trade. But I wouldn't bet much on it.

I've been noticing those murmurs as well, and my read has been pretty much the same. I don't think Dallas will turn him away, even with those concerns, but I think they've probably set a budget on retaining his services that some other team will be willing to break. If that's the case I don't think it's necessarily debilitating - and it may very well pay off in the long run if their read on him is accurate - but it does create another obstacle to getting the roster for next year assembled. The question is, where do the Mavs turn to find a replacement? O'Neal? The other O'Neal? Gortat? Kaman? Chandler?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I think we need Haywood back but there is going to be some serious money out there unspent after LBJ re-signs with Cleveland and Wade goes to the Knicks or wherever. I don't doubt that Haywood gets an offer above what we care to spend for him.

We paid him $6mil last season - I wonder what dollar amount would price him out?

In comparison (2010-2011):

Gortat - $6.3mil
Pryzbilla - $7.4mil
Biedrins - $9.0mil


If Haywood makes anything over/around $10mil (doubtful), then we might as well start talking about Kaman or someone of that caliber for the price...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

If Haywood makes anything over/around $10mil (doubtful), then we might as well start talking about Kaman or someone of that caliber for the price...

I wouldn't be surprised one bit for Haywood to get 50-60 mil. Varejao got 55 last summer and isn't as good as Haywood IMO.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I wouldn't be surprised one bit for Haywood to get 50-60 mil. Varejao got 55 last summer and isn't as good as Haywood IMO.

I'm not sure I agree about Haywood being better than Varejao - who, it should be noted, probably owes some thanks for that contract to both his youth (relative to Wood) and to LeBron's upcoming free agency - but I suspect you're in the neighborhood on the kind of offer that Haywood might get, and I feel pretty confident the Mavs wouldn't match.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by mac222b

i know what you're saying but Kidd is not so expendable as people think. he more than earned what he made this season. he had a poor showing in the playoffs but he a great year overall. i wish that management had gotten a true backup or better yet let Roddy learn on the job 15 mins a night. we would have lost a few more games but in retrospect it would have been worth it w/ Kidd playing closer to 30 mins a night. but Kidd was stellar as was Marion.

I also like what Kidd brings to the table. If you look at my post I was evaluating Kidds value to the team if Lebron was on it. If Lebron was on the team the talents that Kidd puts on the floor would not be as essential. I try to evaluate a players value to a team based upon that teams needs and what that player brings to fill that need. Kidds value was the ball movement that he brings. What a player brings to the floor should be weighed against the libilities that he also brings. Then the plus's can be weighed against the minus's. The same formula should be applied in each idividual game. Sometimes you need scoring and sometimes you need Defense etc.

We have Kidd and should try to utilize him to his utmost. The major problem I see with Kidd is the way he is used. First of all when he was in his prime the game and team had to revolve around him in order to get the best from him. He is far from his prime and on his really good days he still produce. I don't however think his game translates well to a support role. So then when he struggles it affects the team negatively even beyond his own role.

He primarily shoots the three and facilitates ball movement. Ball movement was Dallas's major problem and that was why he was aquired. But when the team is out of sync he can't help by creating shots off the dribble or drawing defenders away from their men anymore. The person you want to have the ball the most are those type's of players. That type of ball movement is preferable to the type that Kidd provides at present which is just hitting a man when he is open but not being able to help create that opening. With more players on the team that can create their own shots then his role becomes less neccessary.

As he gets even older and slower his libilities become magnified and progressively out weigh his plus's more and more. It would be in Dallas's best interest to create a team that would not be so relient on Kidds diminishing skills. This should have happened this year by playing Roddy more than was done.

Kidd did play well during the season. But during the playoffs when you face a team in a series it becomes easier for them to adjust and take advantage of your weakness's. That is why he struggles in the playoffs for the Mavs. Teams adjust to the predictable offense and vunerable defense of their guards.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think people need to be careful assuming that Haywood will be back. I know I was adamant that he would be a few months ago, but over the past month or so there's been several hints (some not even that subtle) that the Mavs were less than thrilled with Haywood's motor, and that's scary considering he was playing for a contract.

I for one am absolutely not working under the assumption that Haywood will be back. And if I had to put money on it right now, I might lean toward betting that he's sent away in a sign and trade. But I wouldn't bet much on it.

Have there been hints about his (lack of) motor? I'm not surprised though, I wasn't exactly happy with how wishy-washy he seemed down the stretch. I wouldn't blame them if they get scared when some other team throws a $10 mil/year or more his way. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Have there been hints about his (lack of) motor? I'm not surprised though, I wasn't exactly happy with how wishy-washy he seemed down the stretch. I wouldn't blame them if they get scared when some other team throws a $10 mil/year or more his way. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

This is the frankest assessment I can remember. And I would take it with some grain of salt, as McMahon isn't always dealing in reality. But he's been a much more reliable reporter in my eyes since moving to ESPNDallas.

What about Brendan Haywood? After all, he was supposed to be the long-term solution when the Mavs made the blockbuster deal with the Washington Wizards. The Mavs’ brass, including player/assistant GM Dirk Nowitzki, even called Haywood the key to the deal. He’s the guy who was supposed to erase the sting of the Magic matching the Mavs’ summer offer to restricted free agent Marcin Gortat.

But the Mavs weren’t nearly as high on Haywood by the end of the season as they were when he arrived. If he can’t be consistently motivated in the last half of a contract year, how can he be trusted when he gets a long-term deal?

Haywood is still a big man who can block shots and post the occasional double-double, so he’ll get paid by somebody. But I don’t think Cuban will be willing to get in a bidding war for a big man that left the Mavs with a bad taste in their mouths.

I would not be surprised at all if plan A right now for the Mavs from a big man standpoint is to Sign and Trade Haywood, re-sign Damp using maybe half of the MLE, find a mobile, defensive oriented backup that can hit a jump shot, and go to work next year.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Have there been hints about his (lack of) motor? I'm not surprised though, I wasn't exactly happy with how wishy-washy he seemed down the stretch. I wouldn't blame them if they get scared when some other team throws a $10 mil/year or more his way. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

there have always been questions bout his motor. havent heard any reports about how the Mavs braintrust feels. he seemed to pout a bit at times but then he was yanked around by RC. i thought Haywood should've remained the starter when Damp came back.
i would think the FO will be prepared to match up to 10mil. unless they have a viable alternative(Dalembert, Gortat, Kaman, Joel Anthony(jk))waiting in the wings.
i know people have mentioned OKC. any other teams in dire need of a center AND have cap room? it's got to be a relatively small list.

[Rick41]

I'm here at my local Best Buy (Laredo,Tx) and saw Samuel Dalembert pass me by... should I flag him down and do a pitch for him to sign with the Mavs for the MLE?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Rick41

I'm here at my local Best Buy (Laredo,Tx) and saw Samuel Dalembert pass me by... should I flag him down and do a pitch for him to sign with the Mavs for the MLE?

Huh? He is under contract for next season at 12 mil....

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Huh? He is under contract for next season at 12 mil....

Forgot about that. For some reason I thought he was in this years free agent class.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Rick41

Forgot about that. For some reason I thought he was in this years free agent class.

No problem . Ask him what he thinks of AI....

[grndmstr_c]

Over on db.com there's a thread that popped up with some speculation from Stein regarding NO. His take seems to be that Paul is pretty much untouchable, but that NO might be willing to make Collison available to a team that's willing to take on Okafor, Peja or Posey. Those are some unpleasant contracts they're looking to move, but that's interesting.

[Thomas86]

Would anybody be mad if the Mavs split the MLE on Brad Miller and Mike Miller?....I think Brad would be a good back big man to Haywood if he comes back.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Over on db.com there's a thread that popped up with some speculation from Stein regarding NO. His take seems to be that Paul is pretty much untouchable, but that NO might be willing to make Collison available to a team that's willing to take on Okafor, Peja or Posey. Those are some unpleasant contracts they're looking to move, but that's interesting.

no way we'd give up Dust or Caron for that. if they'd do Okafor/Collison for Deshawn/Carroll/barea or Najera and cash i could see that working. would save them much right away but it would over the life of the deals. would leave us w/ Haywood to either sign and trade or let him walk. Only problem is Okafor is undersized and overpaid so we'd have to have another legit big man, one that wasn't too costly. that and NO wouldn't do this deal in the 1st place.

[BGMaverick9]

Hmmmm....I really don't see a way WE land a NO deal but we could help facilitate a deal where Collision and X go somewhere and we send them DUST or Butler and pieces that expire and we land a big fish from a 3rd team.

[dude1394]

Haywood looks like a strange bird to me. I know it's a little thing but he doesn't join in on the give a "dap" after hitting a free throw routine.

It's a little thing, he expects to get the "dap", but won't get off his line to give one. Weird to me..

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Hmmmm....I really don't see a way WE land a NO deal but we could help facilitate a deal where Collision and X go somewhere and we send them DUST or Butler and pieces that expire and we land a big fish from a 3rd team.

I suspect you're probably right, unless the Mavs internally think more of Collison and/or Okafor than I imagine they would. That is, it's not hard to think of trades that might tempt NO if they're in serious cost-cutting mode (Damp/JJB for Okafor/Collison, or more adventurously Haywood(S&T)/JJB/Carroll/Stevenson for Okafor/Collison/Posey), but Okafor's contract is a tough pill to swallow, and if you've still got Booby and JET on the roster it's tough to imagine Dallas finding minutes enough to justify bringing in Collison.

Still, Dallas is, or at least should be on the lookout for point-guard-of-the-future types who can step in and contribute immediately should Kidd's physical condition take an unexpected plunge, and they may very well find themselves in the market for a new starter at center as well. Bottom line, talent-wise the Okafor/Collison duo could offer a pretty good match for some of Dallas' needs depending on how things shake out.

[Bayliss]

Nocioni is on the block as well. His contract is bad. But he is a pretty good shooter/scorer who (IMO) could fill a niche as a bench player or in a smallball lineup....

[Dirkenstien]

I wonder how much money Gooden will be looking for this off-season? He's a guy that can back up the 4 very well and occasionally put in some minutes at the five for a more mobile option.

Resign Haywood, see what the Dust Chip gets you, and then split the MLE on Gooden and Damp/Shaq to bolster the front line depth.

[sefant77]

IM pretty sure Cuban is willing to spend 32-36/4 years for Haywood. 5th year TO or dustchip.

Which team would offer more? Max teams that cant fill their max FA slot (or one of them) will go for the 2011 Anthony race and not blow it with a horrible Haywood contract.

OKC will never throw so much money at Haywood when they have to extend all that rookie contracts.

Worst case would be a S&T if Dallas doesnt like Haywood for a certain price or he doesnt like Dallas that much. But Haywood wont get paid from any team with cap...

Sign him 4 years, 5th as option for less than 38/4 and im fine with it.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by sefant77

IM pretty sure Cuban is willing to spend 32-36/4 years for Haywood. 5th year TO or dustchip.

Which team would offer more? Max teams that cant fill their max FA slot (or one of them) will go for the 2011 Anthony race and not blow it with a horrible Haywood contract.

OKC will never throw so much money at Haywood when they have to extend all that rookie contracts.

Worst case would be a S&T if Dallas doesnt like Haywood for a certain price or he doesnt like Dallas that much. But Haywood wont get paid from any team with cap...

Sign him 4 years, 5th as option for less than 38/4 and im fine with it.

that sounds about right and that's how it'll probably play out. around 8.5 per for 4 years with a TO for a 5th.