Official Mavs 2020 Draft/Free Agency Thread - Page 19 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

We cant trade the pick though right ? Only the trade after the pick. If they aren't keeping the pick for themselves, I bet they already have a deal worked out.

We can agree in principle to a trade at any time. We just can't finalize the trade until we get the player's rights.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

He’s a professional he’s not going to call guys out when he’s trying to get a long term deal.

Maybe, but that's not the sense I got at all.

The portion of the fan base who tries to twist anything into an anti-Carlisle rant really irks me, personally. We are extremely lucky that he stuck with the Mavs through the last decade, imo.

I think the experts I read (and there were a lot of them) who convinced me WCS was opting in simply misread the potential market for his services...that, or WCS and his team are misreading them now. I don't believe it had anything to do with Carlisle or his minutes here. I think the shutdown happened just as he had finally gotten up to speed with the systems and was getting worked into the rotation.

SMC0007 · 11-18-2020, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

He literally said that this was not the case. He talked a lot about how great Carlisle is, and how much he has learned from him in a short time.

I mean, maybe he was playing three-dimensional wizard PR chess, but WCS doesn't strike me as that type of thinker, personally.

It really doesn't matter at this point though, I guess.

I'm just not gullible. Players on the verge of not being in the league at all don't have to be rocket scientists to know you don't bad talk a top 5 coach and great organizations. How would anything but what he has said look to anyone trying to offer him a little more than what he was due to make here?

Technically he could "love coach" but completely disagree with how they use him and still focus on his own career at the same time.

Dtownsfinest · 11-18-2020, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Maybe, but that's not the sense I got at all.

The portion of the fan base who tries to twist anything into an anti-Carlisle rant really irks me, personally. We are extremely lucky that he stuck with the Mavs through the last decade, imo.

I think the experts I read (and there were a lot of them) who convinced me WCS was opting in simply misread the potential market for his services...that, or WCS and his team are misreading them now. I don't believe it had anything to do with Carlisle or his minutes here. I think the shutdown happened just as he had finally gotten up to speed with the systems and was getting worked into the rotation.

I’m not anti-Carlisle but if he didn’t have that ring he should’ve been canned by now. Not a fan of his rotations at all. I do not understand why it took him so late to play Burke or why he wouldn’t play WCS after Powell went down.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'm just not gullible. Players on the verge of not being in the league at all don't have to be rocket scientists to know you don't bad talk a top 5 coach and great organizations. How would anything but what he has said look to anyone trying to offer him a little more than what he was due to make here?

Technically he could "love coach" but completely disagree with how they use him and still focus on his own career at the same time.

That's a valid take and good way of expressing it. Maybe so.

I really, really believe this decision is about money. He's not making very much of it, and the escrow situation, along with missing the bubble for the birth of his daughter, probably hurt him more than most (not that any of these guys are actually hurting the way normal people are).

I'm just saying, I think it's about his market.

If it IS about minutes or play style, then he needs to GTFO.

Dtownsfinest · 11-18-2020, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'm just not gullible. Players on the verge of not being in the league at all don't have to be rocket scientists to know you don't bad talk a top 5 coach and great organizations. How would anything but what he has said look to anyone trying to offer him a little more than what he was due to make here?

Technically he could "love coach" but completely disagree with how they use him and still focus on his own career at the same time.

Exactly. We can’t sit here and be naive and think everyone loves Carlisle.

Dtownsfinest · 11-18-2020, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

That's a valid take and good way of expressing it. Maybe so.

I really, really believe this decision is about money. He's not making very much of it, and the escrow situation, along with missing the bubble for the birth of his daughter, probably hurt him more than most (not that any of these guys are actually hurting the way normal people are).

I'm just saying, I think it's about his market.

If it IS about minutes or play style, then he needs to GTFO.

It could be all of the above. Wants more minutes and want more money and security. Nothing wrong with that.

SMC0007 · 11-18-2020, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

That's a valid take and good way of expressing it. Maybe so.

I really, really believe this decision is about money. He's not making very much of it, and the escrow situation, along with missing the bubble for the birth of his daughter, probably hurt him more than most (not that any of these guys are actually hurting the way normal people are).

I'm just saying, I think it's about his market.

If it IS about minutes or play style, then he needs to GTFO.

Oh I believe its about money too. But if you aren't getting playing time and some dnpcd dramatically effects your potential to get money. You can't sit as much as he did and get paid...and another year of that would have him potentially locked into league min or headed overseas or g league.

I'm not hating on Rick. I love Rick but I don't always agree with his rotation. I'm not sure there's a perfect coach out there that would keep me 100% happy.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Exactly. We can’t sit here and be naive and think everyone loves Carlisle.

Who said that? Not me. I said WCS likes him, and that's because WCS said so. If you want to speculate that this was him "just being professional" then ok - I can't prove otherwise.

But now we're acting like the opt out proves that he doesn't? That's not true at all.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Oh I believe its about money too. But if you aren't getting playing time and some dnpcd dramatically effects your potential to get money. You can't sit as much as he did and get paid...and another year of that would have him potentially locked into league min or headed overseas or g league.

Yeah, all of this tracks.

For the record, I think his BEST chance of resurrecting his career was to opt in, work his butt off and earn a spot in the rotation this year. This was far from impossible, given the injury situation with KP and Powell. A chance to play in the playoffs on a team everyone watches because of Luka would've been my goal, if I were he.

I guess he felt differently. Oh, well.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-18-2020, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Yeah, all of this tracks.

For the record, I think his BEST chance of resurrecting his career was to opt in, work his butt off and earn a spot in the rotation this year. This was far from impossible, given the injury situation with KP and Powell. A chance to play in the playoffs on a team everyone watches because of Luka would've been my goal, if I were he.

I guess he felt differently. Oh, well.

But he risks another season of not being played which would further decrease his value. And with cap going down in the near future, well, it actually makes perfect sense.

His personal opinion of Carlisle means very little when it comes to the common sense of the matter.

SMC0007 · 11-18-2020, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Yeah, all of this tracks.

For the record, I think his BEST chance of resurrecting his career was to opt in, work his butt off and earn a spot in the rotation this year. This was far from impossible, given the injury situation with KP and Powell. A chance to play in the playoffs on a team everyone watches because of Luka would've been my goal, if I were he.

I guess he felt differently. Oh, well.

Yea, its a tricky situation. Stay and risk a worst case repeat of last year or best case as you mentioned, work himself a consistent role. I suspected he would opt out and I don't blame him at all really. Totally understandable. Not that big of a loss though.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

But he risks another season of not being played which would further decrease his value.

Ok, but that's kind of my point. You say that would decrease his value, and you might be right that HE believes that, but if he can't get in the rotation for Dallas, a good team who values rim-running centers to the point of fetishizing them, I think that would indicate that he has little to no value to the teams in the NBA who actually matter.

Does getting in the rotation for another bad team, like Sacramento was when he played there, really change the trajectory of his career? I submit NO, unless his goal is to steal as much money as he can before going to play overseas.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

His personal opinion of Carlisle means very little when it comes to the common sense of the matter.

This is VERY true. I guess the reason I always brought up his comments about Carlisle was to combat the narrative of "WCS is obviously leaving because NOBODY would want to play for Rick if he had a choice." (not saying that's the posture of anyone here, necessarily, but I have read that from a few fans and I think it's a load of BS).

But yeah, it's easy to get drawn into Palestine vs Israel or Coke vs. Pepsi on things like this, and you're right - at the end of the day this decision (whether good or bad) was made for business reasons, not relationships.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-18-2020, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Ok, but that's kind of my point. You say that would decrease his value, and you might be right that HE believes that, but if he can't get in the rotation for Dallas, a good team who values rim-running centers to the point of fetishizing them, I think that would indicate that he has little to no value to the teams in the NBA who actually matter.

Does getting in the rotation for another bad team, like Sacramento was when he played there, really change the trajectory of his career? I submit NO, unless his goal is to steal as much money as he can before going to play overseas.

He's obviously going to get more money or else he wouldn't have opted out. How much more is the question indeed.

And Rick has a tendency do this sort of thing with certain players. I understand one dimensional, rim running centers have lower value, but he was played very little even with that in consideration. And he basically always played well when he got minutes at least IMO.

SMC0007 · 11-18-2020, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

He's obviously going to get more money or else he wouldn't have opted out. How much more is the question indeed.

And Rick has a tendency do this sort of thing with certain players. I understand one dimensional, rim running centers have lower value, but he was played very little even with that in consideration. And he basically always played well when he got minutes at least IMO.

The majority of fans here thought was was underplayed. Unfortunately Rick doesnt get advice from the most knowledgeable board out there....d-mavs.com

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

He's obviously going to get more money or else he wouldn't have opted out. How much more is the question indeed.

And Rick has a tendency do this sort of thing with certain players. I understand one dimensional, rim running centers have lower value, but he was played very little even with that in consideration. And he basically always played well when he got minutes at least IMO.

I don't even know if he'll get more per year, but he'll get more years for sure. I'd bet 3/12 is what he ends up getting maybe with a team option in year 3.

Dallas41 · 11-18-2020, 12:00 PM

I completely understand WCS decision.

I'm guessing he just wants to play some consistent minutes or more minutes than what Dallas offers.

The Mavs are stubborn to a point where they're bigs have to shoot 3's to get minutes.

Other teams like Lakers, Clippers, OKC, Boston, Utah, Cleveland or Portland still find ways to utilize traditional bigs and give them minutes.

I'm guessing he'll end up somewhere and play a role similar to that of a Noel, Howard or McGee where the minutes are more consistent.

Depending on what happens with Brooklyn bigs he would fit in very well there.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

And Rick has a tendency do this sort of thing with certain players. I understand one dimensional, rim running centers have lower value, but he was played very little even with that in consideration. And he basically always played well when he got minutes.

So, my entire work life is spent trying to get 16-22 year olds to do something that's really, really difficult. They are hand picked for this purpose and are all trying to be the best in the world at what they do. It's not sports, but the "team building" and organizational comparisons between what I do and coaching are very comparable, imo.

I think 99% of the time, when fans scratch their heads about coaches' decisions on who to play/who not to play, it's not about talent, skill or ability, like they think. It's not about who the coach likes or trusts. My experience leads me to believe it's about what the players know.

I can totally understand not playing WCS during a stretch fans think he should be played if he hasn't yet mastered all of the actions you're likely to flow through, hasn't shown in practice that he understands when to rotate in certain defensive schemes yet, etc. I think there's a learning curve with all of that, and I think had the shutdown not occurred when it did, he would've gotten his chance. Further, I think it's likely that WCS knew what was being asked of him to earn minutes and was working towards that goal. I just didn't see anything that he could've remotely been upset about.

I guess it's all a pointless argument at this point, because he's likely gone.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-18-2020, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

The majority of fans here thought was was underplayed. Unfortunately Rick doesnt get advice from the most knowledgeable board out there....d-mavs.com

Dallas41 · 11-18-2020, 12:05 PM

Also with WCS not coming back who plays center for the 1st few months of the season?

Both Powell and KP are probably going to be on restrictions coming off the surgeries.

Really could have used WCS this year but again I understand his decision.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-18-2020, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

So, my entire work life is spent trying to get 16-22 year olds to do something that's really, really difficult. They are hand picked for this purpose and are all trying to be the best in the world at what they do. It's not sports, but the "team building" and organizational comparisons between what I do and coaching are very comparable, imo.

I think 99% of the time, when fans scratch their heads about coaches' decisions on who to play/who not to play, it's not about talent, skill or ability, like they think. It's not about who the coach likes or trusts. My experience leads me to believe it's about what the players know.

I can totally understand not playing WCS during a stretch fans think he should be played if he hasn't yet mastered all of the actions you're likely to flow through, hasn't shown in practice that he understands when to rotate in certain defensive schemes yet, etc. I think there's a learning curve with all of that, and I think had the shutdown not occurred when it did, he would've gotten his chance. Further, I think it's likely that WCS knew what was being asked of him to earn minutes and was working towards that goal. I just didn't see anything that he could've remotely been upset about.

I guess it's all a pointless argument at this point, because he's likely gone.

Yeah but I also feel most Mavs fans agreed Boban was underplayed as well. I can't know exactly what goes on in practice as I'm obviously not there. I just know that players that produce and make an impact should get minutes. Guess I'm simple minded on that fact.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yeah but I also feel most Mavs fans agreed Boban was underplayed as well...Guess I'm simple minded on that fact.

So I know the last comment is sarcastic and I'm not sure exactly how you mean it, but for the record, I'm not intending to call anyone here simple minded. I'm sorry if it's coming across that way. I really, really don't mean that.

I (think that I) understood why Boban didn't get more minutes, and I don't think it had anything to do with practice.

I think that it was because of transition defense and spread pick and roll defense, particularly the latter. Carlisle always seemed to try to find times to play him when the opposing personnel group wasn't as likely to be pick and roll oriented. That's why he did so well against Harrell in the playoffs, partly, imo.

Boban is GREAT offensively, but he's one of the slowest guys in the league. Do we need to SEE why he can't play more minutes to be happy? Does Carlisle need to prove it to us by letting him get shredded for 5 straight minutes in a big game? I mean, he let that happen to Kristaps Porzingis against Portland in the bubble, and THAT one made me mad, tbh. I think he was trying to make a point to KP, and it was unnecessary. But, I'm sure he had his reasons for that, too.

When he's not playing someone and it surprises me, my instinct is try to figure out why he, the respected professional, has made the decision. That's what's interesting and fun for me. Others' instincts are to wonder how Carlisle doesn't understand what they, the fan, are so sure they see plainly. This seems bass ackwards to me, but hey, we're all here to enjoy our hobby.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:00 PM

Not sure if you guys think this source is legit, I'm not all that familiar with the account:

https://twitter.com/LegionHoopsRoss/...637398024?s=20

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Not sure if you guys think this source is legit, I'm not all that familiar with the account:

https://twitter.com/LegionHoopsRoss/...637398024?s=20

Legion is one of the least reputable sources out there.

Still, it's interesting to think of as a hypothetical. I'm not we'd want to know what it'd cost.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Legion is one of the least reputable sources out there.

Ok, good to know, thanks.

I also don't know much about this particular player, tbh. Would this be a fit?

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Ok, good to know, thanks.

I also don't know much about this particular player, tbh. Would this be a fit?

His stats are almost identical to THJ, to be honest, other than:
1) shooting - Dinwiddle only shoots about 31%. Tim was 35%
2) Assists - Both are 6'5" but Dinwiddle plays PG so he has more assists

If he replaces THJ, it's basically a wash. If he could play next to Doncic/THJ, then I think we could be really good. He'd basically be what we wanted in Wright, but it's only possible if:

1) Harden goes to Brooklyn and Dinwiddle isn't involved. In which case, he'd get zero touches with Durant/Kyrie/Harden, so he could be cheap
2) Harden goes elsewhere, but Kyrie wants more touches and we offer Brooklyn something they really want (18+31, Wright, DFS, etc.)

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:22 PM

I am reading that he's a good driver and initiator (secondary playmaker box checked, if so) but that his 3pt % is low on a high volume. Apparently, only 25% of his attempts were classified as wide open (compared to DFS's 80%) so some are optimistic that the shooting could improve here.

I haven't seen him much, if ever. Does all of this pass the BS test for those of you who are familiar with him?

Do we think this would be a worthwhile use of #18?

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

His stats are almost identical to THJ, to be honest, other than:
1) shooting - Dinwiddle only shoots about 31%. Tim was 35%
2) Assists - Both are 6'5" but Dinwiddle plays PG so he has more assists

I think Din would be a heck of a player next to THJ/Doncic/KP, but I think the only way we can get him is if THJ is gone and THJ-Dinwiddle is a bit of a wash. Maybe

1) Harden goes to Brooklyn and Dinwiddle isn't involved. In which case, he'd get zero touches with Durant/Kyrie/Harden, so he could be cheap
2) Harden goes elsewhere, but we offer Brooklyn something they really want (18+31+a guy like DFS who can play next to Kyrie and Durant)

Interesting, thanks.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:24 PM

They REALLY want another ball-handling playmaker, so if that's what this guy is, I think it's possible this is semi-legit.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-18-2020, 01:28 PM

Dinnie can't shoot, so that is a problem. I wouldn't hate the move though.

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

I am reading that he's a good driver and initiator (secondary playmaker box checked, if so) but that his 3pt % is low on a high volume. Apparently, only 25% of his attempts were classified as wide open (compared to DFS's 80%) so some are optimistic that the shooting could improve here.

I haven't seen him much, if ever. Does all of this pass the BS test for those of you who are familiar with him?

Do we think this would be a worthwhile use of #18?

It is 100% rumor at this point, but the devil is in the details.

He's the exact player you'd like to have next to Doncic. He can play on or off-ball. Good size/length. Smart. Might be more efficient shooting if open.

If you're giving up on the Wright experiment and only throwing in some filler and maybe 18 or 31, then I say you we go for it. If it costs much more? I'm out.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:34 PM

Ok, given what Brooklyn is trying to accomplish right now on the trade market, I find it hard to believe that this deal wouldn't be for #18, so hopefully the filler will be Wright, and the package won't include role players who are actually valuable.

mac222b · 11-18-2020, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

I am reading that he's a good driver and initiator (secondary playmaker box checked, if so) but that his 3pt % is low on a high volume. Apparently, only 25% of his attempts were classified as wide open (compared to DFS's 80%) so some are optimistic that the shooting could improve here.

I haven't seen him much, if ever. Does all of this pass the BS test for those of you who are familiar with him?

Do we think this would be a worthwhile use of #18?

He’s a good scorer and playmaker. Think Lou Williams with better court vision, worse shooting or Worse defending and shooting Schroeder. I think he needs a new contract after this season. Good player, definitely legit secondary playmaker. Not super efficient and nothing special defensively.

mac222b · 11-18-2020, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Dinnie can't shoot, so that is a problem. I wouldn't hate the move though.

That would be my concern with playing next to Luka. Delon is a better shooter. Dinwiddie would be great leading the second unit though.

KillerLeft · 11-18-2020, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

He’s a good scorer and playmaker. Think Lou Williams with better court vision, worse shooting or Worse defending and shooting Schroeder. I think he needs a new contract after this season. Good player, definitely legit secondary playmaker. Not super efficient and nothing special defensively.

Awesome, this helps.

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 01:56 PM

Dinwiddie is also the jerk who tried to get people to pay him 25mill to allow him to chose his next team.

MFFL · 11-18-2020, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

Ok, given what Brooklyn is trying to accomplish right now on the trade market, I find it hard to believe that this deal wouldn't be for #18, so hopefully the filler will be Wright, and the package won't include role players who are actually valuable.

This year's #18 and our next available #1?

They have to pick up a ton of 1st rounders to satisfy Houston

EricaLubarsky · 11-18-2020, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

This year's #18 and our next available #1?

They have to pick up a ton of 1st rounders to satisfy Houston

I would feel really dirty trading a pick that ended up in Houston, even if it's 2025

I also don't think Dinwiddie deserves more than one first. This year's 18? Sure. Two first rounders? No way.

SMC0007 · 11-18-2020, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

I am reading that he's a good driver and initiator (secondary playmaker box checked, if so) but that his 3pt % is low on a high volume. Apparently, only 25% of his attempts were classified as wide open (compared to DFS's 80%) so some are optimistic that the shooting could improve here.

I haven't seen him much, if ever. Does all of this pass the BS test for those of you who are familiar with him?

Do we think this would be a worthwhile use of #18?

He's much better with the ball than THJ. Handles are like way better. He sees the floor better and is a little better defender which isn't saying a ton. Not as good of a 3pt shooter. I think many would categorize it as a lateral move, but I think it would be an upgrade. How significant of an upgrade would partly be determined by what we would give to get him IMO.

If it were just a straight player swap, salaries not a factor, its an upgrade.

Not worth the 18th pick imo