Official Game 2 thread: Dallas @ Phoenix - Page 19 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mary · 05-12-2005, 05:44 PM

The definitions of tough that are relative to this agrument:

: characterized by severity or uncompromising determination
: capable of enduring strain, hardship, or severe labor

So if you're trying to equate "tough" with "physicality", you are being inaccurate. If you wanted to say the Mavs weren't a physical team, then why didn't you make that claim to begin with?

Murphy3 · 05-12-2005, 05:48 PM

Because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

mary · 05-12-2005, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Good Point [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Rhylan · 05-12-2005, 05:51 PM

UL, the only reason I mentioned Juwan Howard was his willingness to give a hard foul, and he always struck me as quite a competitor, despite his many shortcomings. He's the wimpiest of all the guys I mentioned, probably.

The whole problem with this thread is that Plissken has a very narrow definition of toughness relative to most of us. Plissken - define toughness for us, please? Without naming players.

Murphy3 · 05-12-2005, 05:53 PM

People that have no clue as to what they're talking about irritate the hell out of me. I come for here for intelligent conversation, and I have to put up with that b.s.

Damn, it's almost as infuriating as listening to Norm get on one of his little rants. Even though AJ came out today and talked about how Dirk did what he did just at the right time, Norm continues to rant and rave about how Dirk was in the wrong. It worked dumbass. Shut the hell up. What's worse is having to listen to Norm continue to go on about the freaking Van Gundy situation talking about how the league was in the wrong for notifying Cuban to tell him that they did in fact screw up on some of the calls. Get off it. That goes for whoever the hell it is in here arguing about the Stack play. It shouldn't have been a flagrant foul. Get off of it. The league rescinded the flagrant foul. Leave the damn thing alone.

kingrex · 05-12-2005, 05:54 PM

Dallas may not be the toughest team in the NBA, but they are tough enough to win a 7-game series after being down 2. I don't really care if they are the toughest, as long as they are tough when it counts.

Murphy3 · 05-12-2005, 05:55 PM

They are definitely mentally tough..and they are willing to be physically tough. I'll take that over physically tought without having it all upstairs.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-12-2005, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plisskenI mean, I know Dampier finally had a good game last night, but he's not going to give you tough play in any way, shape, or form.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Look man, I went to a game where we played against Miami this season, and Damp was damn impressive against Shaq. In fact, he played against Shaq so well that Shaq whined and bitched about it after the game in frustration.

Quote:

In fact, the team's best defender still remains to be Finley, which has been the case for years now.

Well, Finley played impressive D on T-Mac in the first round, but I still believe that Howard is our best defender, and that Terry, Harris, Daniels, Stackhouse, and Armstrong are all better defenders than Fin.

EricaLubarsky · 05-12-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
"Is stack making a play on the ball???? Or johnson's head???? That is the definition of a flagrant foul.....One can also be called if something happened after the play like throwing him down."

In effect, he made the play on JJ's body. The refs didn't think he could have made the play from his position -- hence the flagrant. Based on what I'm seeing, I agree.

Guess the replay showed differently.

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
I don't think there's any way it gets removed.

'

where theres a will theres a way

chumdawg · 05-12-2005, 06:27 PM

You might make a case that is the mentally toughest team in the entire NBA. Three-and-oh in Game Sevens over the last three years. Only the third team ever to bounce back from 0-2 at home. Finley's record of coming up big in important playoff games. Coming back from fourth-quarter defecits twice against Houston. Surviving last night when Phoenix wiped the lead away and took one of their own. Jason Terry's coldblooded shooting in his first playoffs.

Yes, Dallas is mentally tough. If it's physicality you want, don't forget about Roy Williams breaking bones and separating shoulders. Dallas will hurt you, man.

snake plissken · 05-12-2005, 06:49 PM

"Because he doesn't know what he's talking about."

Nice comeback. It about blew my point right out the water.

Miami plays a tougher style of ball. Detroit plays tough. San Antonio is capable of doing so. Same with Houston. Even Memphis proved itself in being able to play tough.

Dallas just doesn't measure up. They'd get crushed trying to body up on any of these teams -- as they realized with Houston after two games. They do a lot of things very well, but playing a physical style is not their strength.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-12-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
"Because he doesn't know what he's talking about."

Nice comeback. It about blew my point right out the water.

Miami plays a tougher style of ball. Detroit plays tough. San Antonio is capable of doing so. Same with Houston. Even Memphis proved itself in being able to play tough.
Dallas just doesn't measure up. They'd get crushed trying to body up on any of these teams

You never said the Mavs weren't physical, you said they weren't tough. If those are the same thing to you, then we just have different definitions of what "tough" is... And yes, Miami, San Antonio, and Detroit all play a more physical style than Dallas, but to say that we'd get "crushed" is a bit of a stretch. We're 2-0 against Miami and 1-1 against Detroit this year. And we absolutely dominated Memphis this season, so don't give me that sh*t. San Antonio killed us, but it was due to sloppy all-around play, not a lack of "toughness."

Quote:

-- as they realized with Houston after two games. They do a lot of things very well, but playing a physical style is not their strength.

Actually, in the first game we did a damn impressive job on Yao. If I remember correctly he finished with 11, and played minimal minutes due to foul trouble.. The rest of the series Yao played well because Damp got himself into foul trouble. Even so, we lost those games because of turnovers, and poor execution. It had absolutely nothing to do with our "toughness" Honestly, you have not brought up one single valid point in your argument. It's a stupid argument, and you're running out of bullsh*t to throw into it.

snake plissken · 05-12-2005, 07:07 PM

Listen, we can argue what the "definition of is ... is" all day if you'd like, but the truth is that when most people talk about the teams that are tough in this league, they aren't talking about the ones who may be -- as you guys put it -- "mentally tough." They're talking about the teams that will get the win by beating the snot out of you.

When analysts, coaches or whoever talk about a team that has some resiliency or some focus, they don't talk about them as being one of the tougher teams in the league. Phx gets praised all the time for "imposing our will" on other teams, but that doesn't inspire them to start calling us a tough team.

Same thing with Dallas -- except for here, of course. Here, being a tough team is only a matter of deciding you're a tough team, rather than proving it. Whatever...

LRB · 05-12-2005, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
"Because he doesn't know what he's talking about."

Nice comeback. It about blew my point right out the water.

Miami plays a tougher style of ball. Detroit plays tough. San Antonio is capable of doing so. Same with Houston. Even Memphis proved itself in being able to play tough.

Dallas just doesn't measure up. They'd get crushed trying to body up on any of these teams -- as they realized with Houston after two games. They do a lot of things very well, but playing a physical style is not their strength.

So you freely admit that you haven't seen the Mavs play very much then? It must be so, because otherwise you would have seen how this team takes all the physicality that these teams can dish out and shove it right back. Detroit tried to get physical with us and we got right back with them and beat them. We were 2-0 against Shaq and the heat. We haven't played the Spurs with both teams at full strength, so we'll have to wait a couple of weeks to see how that works out.

You still haven't defined "tough" though. Are you trying to be a troll? All you say is Dallas isn't tough, but never define what tough is and how Dallas isn't that. You appear to be failing at any communication unless it's your desire to communicate that you don't know what you're talking about. It's OK to have a descenting opinion, but at least try and define what that opinion is. We've defined tough and you show no argument how Dallas isn't tough by our definition. Yet you claim the Mavs aren't tough. It really looks like you're trying to troll for an argument.

grndmstr_c · 05-12-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

the truth is that when most people talk about the teams that are tough in this league, they aren't talking about the ones who may be -- as you guys put it -- "mentally tough." They're talking about the teams that will get the win by beating the snot out of you.

I guess I'm just imagining all those times I've heard Allen Iverson described as tough.[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

btw, you should check out the thread concerning the NBA rescinding the flagrant ruling on Stack.

Mavs_fun_fan · 05-12-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Dallas just doesn't measure up. They'd get crushed trying to body up on any of these teams -- as they realized with Houston after two games.

I find this laughable just like the rest of your silly illogical posts. The fact is that around game 4 of the Houston series their fans were on here whining just like you Suns fans about the Mavericks physical play.

You don't have a clue about what your talking about, It was the rockets fans just like you suns fans which were crying about the mean old Mavericks.

But hey it takes a "special" type of person to continue to make a fool of himself, Anyway you can go over to the rockets board since both of you have whined continously about the soft Mavericks slamming your players.

kg_veteran · 05-12-2005, 07:13 PM

Wow, the last two pages or so about "toughness" were mind-numbing to read.

Rather than arguing with you, Snake, I'll just refer you to this ESPN article from last summer where Michael Finley was picked by his fellow NBA players as one of the five toughest players in the league.

While that doesn't prove that the Mavericks are tough, it certainly gives you an idea of what NBA players think the word "tough" means, and using their definition, I think a lot of Mavericks fit the definition.

And frankly, I'm going to use their definition over yours.

dude1394 · 05-12-2005, 07:16 PM

Well per snake stack is one tough hombre. . Tough enough anyway.

mary · 05-12-2005, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
"It was nowhere near a flagrant foul. The refs just called it so what. I'd like to see that foul put on every stunned players."

That I disagree with -- and will risk flaming by calling that homerism.

Jerry hit JJ hard in the air, making him come down wrong. His forearm hitting JJ in the head is what threw JJ off balance. That's a textbook flagrant, and unfortunate way to gain an advantage in a series, IMO.

Its been funny watching you dig in your heels. You claimed Stack's block was a "textbook" flagrant - despite obvious replay evidence that it was not. It couldn't be that the call was wrong, Mavs fans are homerish.

How is it that you were so sure the flagrant was "textbook", if the League rescinded it less thean 24 hours after it happened?

How is it that your certainty, and the League's ruling, can co-exist?

Either you, or the NBA, made a gross error in judgement.

mmmfast · 05-12-2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Rather than arguing with you, Snake, I'll just refer you to this ESPN article from last summer where Michael Finley was picked by his fellow NBA players as one of the five toughest players in the league.

Set and Match.

You can always count on someone to do the research - nice one KG

dude1394 · 05-12-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: mary

Quote:

Originally posted by: snake plissken
"It was nowhere near a flagrant foul. The refs just called it so what. I'd like to see that foul put on every stunned players."

That I disagree with -- and will risk flaming by calling that homerism.

Jerry hit JJ hard in the air, making him come down wrong. His forearm hitting JJ in the head is what threw JJ off balance. That's a textbook flagrant, and unfortunate way to gain an advantage in a series, IMO.

Its been funny watching you dig in your heels. You claimed Stack's block was a "textbook" flagrant - despite obvious replay evidence that it was not. It couldn't be that the call was wrong, Mavs fans are homerish.

How is it that you were so sure the flagrant was "textbook", if the League rescinded it less thean 24 hours after it happened?

How is it that your certainty, and the League's ruling, can co-exist?

Either you, or the NBA, made a gross error in judgement.

I'm sure it will be the van gundy, clutch city defense. The refs are biased against us!!!

EricaLubarsky · 05-12-2005, 09:07 PM

not just the refs! It's Stern that's in Cuban's pocket! Its a bigger conspiracy!

[img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]

fuegofrio17 · 05-12-2005, 09:10 PM

Hey Murph,
What's the story on the league informing Cuban of blown calls by refs? Which fouls in particular did they admit were called wrong? And why did Norm say it was wrong for the league to tell Cuban this? Seem like a very fair thing to do considering the impact of a blown call in a playoff game. Thanks for any info.

bernardos70 · 05-12-2005, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo
Hey yandong8... you are trying to post an image of T-Mac dunking obviously... but the picture is on the C: drive of your computer. That's not going to work buddy. You will need to host it on either web-space you have or another image hosting site.

But really, how could that be relevant to this thread? Why don't you save it.

I know you are trying to be helpful, but his has got to be one of the single funniest posts ever, due to the circumstances. My side hurts.

LordOfTheMavs · 05-12-2005, 10:49 PM

Damn. I read through this whole freaking thread from the end of the game on. I'll stand by my statements made in the heat of the battle.

Dallas used thier physicallity to make an impact on the Suns Finesse game last night and it was enough to win. That gets me pretty geeked up as a Mavs fan, because it is what this team has worked towards all year. The ability to play "playoff basketball".

Playoff basketball is when the you get tough or you get going fishing. That's exactly what we saw last night.

All I have to say about the Stack/JJ play and the physical vs. finesse issue is this...Scoreboard.

Scoreboard is pretty much all that matters. Suns won game 1. They played finesse and it was awesome and the Mavs got crushed. Mavs won game 2 and were able to be counter the Suns by being physical (*see JJ's eye for your definition of tough). Scoreboard decides all. And whoever comes out of this series will have scoreboard on thier side, the loser of this series will have semantics and arguments without scoreboard to back them up.

dude1394 · 05-12-2005, 11:22 PM

Scoreboard brotha'

snake plissken · 05-13-2005, 11:09 AM

"Its been funny watching you dig in your heels. You claimed Stack's block was a "textbook" flagrant - despite obvious replay evidence that it was not. It couldn't be that the call was wrong, Mavs fans are homerish."

Obviously, the league didn't see it as flagrant. I'll honor that and not argue my take any further. That's what I said I'd do, and I will.

snake plissken · 05-13-2005, 11:16 AM

"I find this laughable just like the rest of your silly illogical posts. The fact is that around game 4 of the Houston series their fans were on here whining just like you Suns fans about the Mavericks physical play."

Just to set the record set, I supported the refs' call in tagging the Stack foul as flagrant. I argued my point -- the league saw differently. I'll respect that and argue it no more. I brought up the "homer" label early in the discussion, and that was obviously reckless of me.

But I don't feel compelled to "whine" about Dallas' physical play. It doesn't exist in any great measure, so I wouldn't ever feel the need to whine about something that is an apparition.

What worries me about Dallas is their depth, their ability to score, and the diviersity of talent they have in putting those points on the board. I can't imagine a day where I'd worry about being outmuscled by this Dallas team. And I'd wager that most other teams feel the same.

Murphy3 · 05-13-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: fuegofrio17
Hey Murph,
What's the story on the league informing Cuban of blown calls by refs? Which fouls in particular did they admit were called wrong? And why did Norm say it was wrong for the league to tell Cuban this? Seem like a very fair thing to do considering the impact of a blown call in a playoff game. Thanks for any info.

Most teams will submit film to the league about certain calls that they feel are wrong by the officials... The Mavs submitted 19 calls to the officials concerning moving screens by Yao and Dikembe....The league came back and said that 9 of the calls were blown. Well, Norm went off on a tangent complaining how the league shouldn't admit that to Cuban because it would become public and then impact the game unfairly because surely the refs would read the paper and react accordingly.

Why did Norm think that it was wrong? Because Norm's an idiot about 50% of the time... a genius about 50% of the time... and annoying 100% of the time.