GDT: Mavericks @ Hornets 11/4/2009 8:30CST - Page 19 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LonghornDub · 11-05-2009, 12:49 AM

The loss itself doesn't upset me, but losing like that upsets me. The Mavs were up 4 with 16 seconds, gave up a layup without even 3 seconds running off the clock, missed three FT's in a row, and then gave up an open three to the other team's best shooter. As far as I'm concerned, all that in tandem is pretty unacceptable.

That said, it's just one game.

jthig32 · 11-05-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlimBig

Why is it tiresome? There is no defense for JJB. He provides an occasional spark of the bench and can have an occassional big game but his faults are fatally deterimental to the team. His defense is atrocious minus the occasional charges he draws against the Pauls, Parkers and Nashs of the game but his soft double team in the post and defensive rotations are so below average that it allows the opponent to score or get or other players in foul trouble because it throws the whole defense off.

On offense, he pounds the ball for the majority of the shotclock looking for only HIS shot. If he doesn't see a lane or a garbage three pointer, he passes it off to someone with 5-4 secs left on the clock. I don't understand why Carlisle runs him at point and Kidd and shooting guard in the 3 guard or 2 point guard rotation. If Barea's gonna be a scorer he needs to take the Eddie House roll and jack without dominating the ball.

I think Roddy has shown enough in this game to eat some of his minutes this season until he's ready to take JJB role over completely.

Here is the second perfect example today of someone seeing all the negatives of a player on his team (and making some up) without seeing any of the positives.

You're right dude. Clearly JJB is a worthless player and Carlisle is a moron for playing him.

This is actually pretty funny because at this time last year I was very adamant that JJB was not an NBA level player. Because he'd never shown anything consistently at this level.

Then he went out and had as good a season as just about any backup PG in the NBA. Some people have very short memories.

xrobx · 11-05-2009, 12:52 AM

put it this way, if ross, howard, thomas, and gooden weren't all injured, and anybody besides jet and dampier would have put forth any effort whatsoever, we probably would have won by 20. if anything i was more impressed by the fact that we were even in the game. since when do we ever beat the hornets in new orleans anyway? i know it sucks because we had the game won and threw it away, but this is just the second game(edit: week) of the season guys. we don't even have our whole team together yet! still a good effort by our guys.

CadBane · 11-05-2009, 12:55 AM

There is not a single back-up PG who is as much as a defensive liability as JJB.

Dtownsfinest · 11-05-2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Lmao! Did you graduate from the Josh Howard school of "Can't control what the ball do yall!"?

How is JJB missing 2 ft's a fluke? It's called choking. Maybe if he just missed one and it rolled in and out, or he had a track record of being clutch. Neither are the case. He was clearly nervous and he alligator-armed both of them. He choked, plain and simple. Just like he panicked a jacked up 2 or 3 of the stupidest threes I've ever seen in my life late in the 4th and in OT.

So you're telling me if you put JJ in that situation again next game he's going to miss 2 free throws in the clutch. Its a damn fluke. JET missed one too btw. And BTW, if JET HITS THAT FREE THROW GAME OVER.

Dtownsfinest · 11-05-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

The loss itself doesn't upset me, but losing like that upsets me. The Mavs were up 4 with 16 seconds, gave up a layup without even 3 seconds running off the clock, missed three FT's in a row, and then gave up an open three to the other team's best shooter. As far as I'm concerned, all that in tandem is pretty unacceptable.

That said, it's just one game.

That hurts because i've seen the Mavs do that before. If I remember correctly didn't Carmelo do that to the Mavs in the post season? Melo got a uncontested layup and ended up shooting a 3 to beat us? Maybe that's part of Carlisle's philosophy? Let them have the layup and prevent them from getting the and 1?

Dirkadirkastan · 11-05-2009, 12:59 AM

The thought of me editing cuss words into my old posts that will never be read again really bothers the mods.

xrobx · 11-05-2009, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

So you're telling me if you put JJ in that situation again next game he's going to miss 2 free throws in the clutch. Its a damn fluke. JET missed one too btw. And BTW, if JET HITS THAT FREE THROW GAME OVER.

i certainly will never trust barea to make another free throw, ever again.

and also if jet hits that free throw, jj misses both, peja hits the 3 with 9 seconds left we're still up 1, they foul again, and who knows what happens after that but i still don't exactly love our chances of winning.

CadBane · 11-05-2009, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

So you're telling me if you put JJ in that situation again next game he's going to miss 2 free throws in the clutch. Its a damn fluke. JET missed one too btw. And BTW, if JET HITS THAT FREE THROW GAME OVER.

Well I hope that situation doesn't occur again bc JJB should not be playing in such a circumstance. But yes, in that same situation, especially on the road, I'm extremely confident JJB goes 0-2 or 1-2.

Yes, Jet should have made his. Jet missing a lot of clutch fts. But I'm giving him more of a pass because he actually contributes to the game and had a huge 4th qtr. He's also hit a ton of clutch shots in his career.

chumdawg · 11-05-2009, 01:00 AM

I think the problem is fantasy basketball. There must be a lot of fantasy basketball players in this thread, because there seems to be a strong sentiment among many that a player has to be dominant in most areas of the game for him to have worth as a player. That's how fantasy basketball works, but it's not how real basketball works.

In real basketball there are role players. JJB is a quintessential role player. Hell, Jason Terry is a role player. Bruce Bowen was one hell of a role player. Dennis Rodman, too.

There is certainly a place for guys like that. Coaches know it (which is the reason you shouldn't be flabbergasted when a sharp coach like Rick Carlisle uses players who you wouldn't start on your fantasy team). There's some fanboys around here who don't know it, though.

And as long as you are slamming on players, why aren't you slamming on Marion or Dirk tonight? Is it because they aren't "midgets?"

chumdawg · 11-05-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

The thought of me editing cuss words into my old posts that will never be read again really bothers the mods.

Are you proud of that?

If it really does bother them, it's probably because they don't want to suspend you...but if any prick did something like that they wouldn't have a choice.

You don't really want to force them to that choice, do you?

Dtownsfinest · 11-05-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Well I hope that situation doesn't occur again bc JJB should not be playing in such a circumstance. But yes, in that same situation, especially on the road, I'm extremely confident JJB goes 0-2 or 1-2.

Yes, Jet should have made his. Jet missing a lot of clutch fts. But I'm giving him more of a pass because he actually contributes to the game and had a huge 4th qtr. He's also hit a ton of clutch shots in his career.

Well let me say this. We're in agreement that Barea should not be in during the clutch of a game. That just boggles my mind. I will never understand the love affair with him. He's great in doses. Why make him out to be something he's not?

And btw, what in the hell is up with Kidd? Goodness. The Hornets were debating even guarding him. Kidd has to pull that 3 up when he gets it. I think I have more confidence in his shot than he does.

Dtownsfinest · 11-05-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think the problem is fantasy basketball. There must be a lot of fantasy basketball players in this thread, because there seems to be a strong sentiment among many that a player has to be dominant in most areas of the game for him to have worth as a player. That's how fantasy basketball works, but it's not how real basketball works.

In real basketball there are role players. JJB is a quintessential role player. Hell, Jason Terry is a role player. Bruce Bowen was one hell of a role player. Dennis Rodman, too.

There is certainly a place for guys like that. Coaches know it (which is the reason you shouldn't be flabbergasted when a sharp coach like Rick Carlisle uses players who you wouldn't start on your fantasy team). There's some fanboys around here who don't know it, though.

And as long as you are slamming on players, why aren't you slamming on Marion or Dirk tonight? Is it because they aren't "midgets?"

I agree. And while i'm sort of defending Barea missing his free throws I did think Barea threw up some shots in the clutch that had me thinking WTF. Especially that 3 pointer. And not to mention the flops he did which one resulted in giving Paul a open 3. I understand why people are blaiming him. He did a lot of horrible in that 4th quarter. But there was a lot going wrong in that quarter. And as great as JET was and he missed a free throw as well.

CadBane · 11-05-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think the problem is fantasy basketball. There must be a lot of fantasy basketball players in this thread, because there seems to be a strong sentiment among many that a player has to be dominant in most areas of the game for him to have worth as a player. That's how fantasy basketball works, but it's not how real basketball works.

In real basketball there are role players. JJB is a quintessential role player. Hell, Jason Terry is a role player. Bruce Bowen was one hell of a role player. Dennis Rodman, too.

There is certainly a place for guys like that. Coaches know it (which is the reason you shouldn't be flabbergasted when a sharp coach like Rick Carlisle uses players who you wouldn't start on your fantasy team). There's some fanboys around here who don't know it, though.

And as long as you are slamming on players, why aren't you slamming on Marion or Dirk tonight? Is it because they aren't "midgets?"

Rodman= JJB. Yep.

All those role players have talents.

Rodman was one of the best rebounders ever.
Bowen is one of the best defenders ever.
Terry is a top 10-20 NBA shooter.

What exactly is it that JJB does well? You don't have to be dominant at everything, but you can't suck at most everything and not be great at anything. What is JJB's talent? The occasional penetrating lay-up (when he doesn't flub them)?

Sorry, but that aint gonna cut it. That doesn't make up for beyond awful defense, poor rebounding, average passing and tunnel vision/ill-timed, forced shots.

FYI, a ton of people mentioned how bad a game Marion had tonight. But maybe I just see things you don't.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-05-2009, 01:07 AM

JJ is a spark. He'll surprise many teams with his ability to get to the rim and occasionally hit an outside shot or draw a charge. As long as opponents don't know what hit them, he'll be an effective weapon.

But once you hand him too many minutes, he's not the same. Teams regroup and figure him out. He'll take too many jumpers. He can't make an effective pass. On defense, he'll leave his man wide open for three.

I'm not even worried about the two missed free throws. He had horrible shot selection tonight.

xrobx · 11-05-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

And as long as you are slamming on players, why aren't you slamming on Marion or Dirk tonight? Is it because they aren't "midgets?"

sure, we can slam on marion, he played like he had melted butter on the palms of his hands, seems like he turned it over or bricked a close range shot every time he touched the ball. he was totally useless tonight.

can't slam dirk. he fouled out due to circumstances beyond his control (refs). plus he single handedly won last night's game for us, and you know if he doesn't foul out, we easily cruise to victory in this game, as he would have shot that technical, and most of the other free throws, and he does not go 0-2.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-05-2009, 01:10 AM

Marion was awful. All he had to do was make a few layups or tip-ins and Dampier was the only one doing it.

RoddyB#3 · 11-05-2009, 01:11 AM

It's definitely not fair to judge Marion until we are at full strength. Marion is known for his work off the ball and easy opportunity's CREATED for him. He can score on his own but not consistently. Once Josh comes back it will really make Marion's job easier, and he will be able to run around and make things happen instead of trying to create his own shot the majority of the time.

badfish22 · 11-05-2009, 01:13 AM

Chums constant defense of JJB is irritating as hell. The guy has had a terrible year, he got over exposed.

SlimBig · 11-05-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Here is the second perfect example today of someone seeing all the negatives of a player on his team (and making some up) without seeing any of the positives.

You're right dude. Clearly JJB is a worthless player and Carlisle is a moron for playing him.

This is actually pretty funny because at this time last year I was very adamant that JJB was not an NBA level player. Because he'd never shown anything consistently at this level.

Then he went out and had as good a season as just about any backup PG in the NBA. Some people have very short memories.

I pointed out positives and negatives. My argument is that his negatives outweighs the positives. What did I make up? Or are you just going to sit back act like you know everything and everyone else is wrong?

Dirkadirkastan · 11-05-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Are you proud of that?

If it really does bother them, it's probably because they don't want to suspend you...but if any prick did something like that they wouldn't have a choice.

You don't really want to force them to that choice, do you?

Gosh, Chum, why would I obsess over posts that will never be read again? Isn't that the point I just made to the mods?

chumdawg · 11-05-2009, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badfish22

Chums constant defense of JJB is irritating as hell. The guy has had a terrible year, he got over exposed.

I'm not defending Barea, I'm defending Carlisle. If Barea gets cut tomorrow and never plays another game in the NBA, so be it. Sad to see him go, but that's the way it is.

My point is, Barea is playing whatever minutes he is playing for Carlisle because Carlisle thinks that's the best option he's got. This seems to be lost on a number of people around here, but it isn't lost on me. You guys complain that Barea tosses up ill-advised shots...but do you see who else is in the game with him and what our offense is looking like at the time? Do you see what other options are on the bench?

Me, I see Barea deferring when he is supposed to defer. And I see him putting the throttle down when he is supposed to put the throttle down. He appears to me to be a very coachable and cerebral player.

If you go far enough back, to the early Nellie days, you know there were times when Nellie would bench a player for NOT being willing to take a shot. Even if the guy wasn't a very good shot! And why was that? It was because in the lineup Nellie had out there, that "bad shot" happened to be one of the best options we had at the time. (And often the guy wasn't very good at defense, either.) If the guy was afraid to take the shot--or, more likely, was just too cautious--there was no reason to have the guy on the floor. He was on the floor to take those shots, miss or make.

I don't know, man...there are some of you who don't seem to me to able to analyze anything beyond one singular shot attempt or possession--and against some sort of "ideal," at that. You should be able to see WAY beyond that.

SlimBig · 11-05-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think the problem is fantasy basketball. There must be a lot of fantasy basketball players in this thread, because there seems to be a strong sentiment among many that a player has to be dominant in most areas of the game for him to have worth as a player. That's how fantasy basketball works, but it's not how real basketball works.

In real basketball there are role players. JJB is a quintessential role player. Hell, Jason Terry is a role player. Bruce Bowen was one hell of a role player. Dennis Rodman, too.

There is certainly a place for guys like that. Coaches know it (which is the reason you shouldn't be flabbergasted when a sharp coach like Rick Carlisle uses players who you wouldn't start on your fantasy team). There's some fanboys around here who don't know it, though.

And as long as you are slamming on players, why aren't you slamming on Marion or Dirk tonight? Is it because they aren't "midgets?"

JJ Barea is a bad role player when he is given too many minutes and not coached. What I mean by not coached is not be reprimanded for not feeding a hot Jason Terry and giving up open 3s to Paul because your "help" defense in the post is so poor. His rotations are god awful.

chumdawg · 11-05-2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Gosh, Chum, why would I obsess over posts that will never be read again? Isn't that the point I just made to the mods?

Fair enough, I see your point. And I also think that editing on GDT's is not all that necessary, even given the community standards. I just wondered why you would make such a point of it. F-bombs get edited, and them's just the rules.

Rick41 · 11-05-2009, 01:37 AM

You gotta make those JJB.

I'm sad.

Underdog · 11-05-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlimBig

JJ Barea is a bad role player when he is given too many minutes and not coached. What I mean by not coached is not be reprimanded for not feeding a hot Jason Terry and giving up open 3s to Paul because your "help" defense in the post is so poor. His rotations are god awful.

Carlisle played the percentages - without Josh & Ross, JET & JJB are the best 2's we have... I'd love to see more Roddy, but Barea has proven himself at a pro level...

Besides, he'll play less once Josh Howard comes back (and he tends to perform best as a spark plug in limited minutes...)

bernardos70 · 11-05-2009, 11:30 AM

Barea is a very valuable player, and I've backed him since he started proving himself last year, but his minutes have to be limited, for the team's sake and for JJB's sake. He took some bad shots, and missed those two free throws, but he was the one who created the opportunity for those free throws drawing a charge on CP3, which is a very difficult thing to do. Carlisle, as pointed out by UD might've been playing the odds, but you can clearly tell when those odds aren't working, and last night wasn't Barea's night, and you could see that from a mile away. He should've subbed him...... he might have cost us the game.

jcm28 · 11-05-2009, 03:06 PM

I can't hate JJB after the way he played the spurs in the playoffs. He had a bad night and we are all frustrated because we lost, so I guess its natural that everyone wants him to commit suicide right now, but once howard comes back barea will play less minutes and probably will be more effective (as someone mentioned above). Saying that JJB has had a bad year is true, but so has JT (except for last nights 4th quarter).

Now PLEASE lets move on to saturday's game against the raptors. that wont be a particularly easy game either.

SMC0007 · 11-05-2009, 04:38 PM

...xraided is way more excited and upbeat than this guy.

badfish22 · 11-05-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm not defending Barea, I'm defending Carlisle. If Barea gets cut tomorrow and never plays another game in the NBA, so be it. Sad to see him go, but that's the way it is.

My point is, Barea is playing whatever minutes he is playing for Carlisle because Carlisle thinks that's the best option he's got. This seems to be lost on a number of people around here, but it isn't lost on me. You guys complain that Barea tosses up ill-advised shots...but do you see who else is in the game with him and what our offense is looking like at the time? Do you see what other options are on the bench?

I can agree with that. Hopefully this problem goes away once we get completely healthy.

You never know with Carisle though. He seems to really like Barea...