Dirk to Mark: Keep chillin Cubes!

[ReDIRKulous]

I'm afraid Cuban is putting himself in a not so favorable position here when it comes to signing or re-signing international players.

I was thinking of the other side of that coin... a lot of teams might not consider drafting European players because it is too risky to have to many of them... especially when they are such valuable picks. If Dirk gets hurt from all the waer and tear of the Euro games... will people look back and say that the MAvs should have picked Paul Pierce? Will Steve Nash's career be cut short by all the wear and tear? Najera may already be done.

[dude1394]

Agreed cubes is probably putting himself in a bad light. But he's not prohibiting anyone from playing, nor is nellie. I think cubes is looking however for some NBA direction here. At the very LEAST to be able to get out of luxury cap if someone goes down playing internationally.

If for example the NBA decided (just to entertaion my current theory) that only players who did not make the playoffs could play in international games unless X occurred then cubes would be off the hook..

[OutletPass]

This may be a discussion that's a bit "before it's time", actually.

I don't see things changing anytime soon....does anyone else think that it will ?

[ReDIRKulous]

The NBA is too slow to act... and they only do things when they have to. They are rarely proactive. It will take someone getting really hurt in a the international games and their career ending before that happens. The tricky part is that they would have to be injured in the international games for it to make that impact... it is much more likely they will get injured during the NBA season... but the reason for the injury will be caused by the strain of playing year round competition for multiple years.

[dude1394]

And he played a lot in the post. As for him getting his rear end handed to him so much... we'll disagree.

I think I didn't make myself clear. When I say handed to him I mean hammered when he has to try and always drive to the basket because he doesn't have little shots and he doesn't get it in the post low enough. He almost always has to put it on the floor, go to the hoop and that gives the offside player a chance to hammer him. ergo "getting his rear end handed to him so much". Not getting outplayed. Sorry if this was misunderstood.

Weight has nothing to do with it. McHale never had weight and was the best low post player ever.

Are you sure about that Bayliss?? McHale looked pretty stout in there comparatively. No not shaq/malone/duncan size (today) but he looker as big as parish for example. Also your point isn't made when you pull out an outlier like mchale and his gorilla arms. In GENERAL guys who don't have bulk cannot get low-post position against stronger players. Heck that's why players DO get position against dirk/bradley for example.

So why DOESN'T he get low-post position like duncan, divac, etc.?? Nellie again??

Actually I've saying Dirk should play the power forward position for the whole year. And yes if that means playing Fortson more at center and using Bradley more then so be it. And now that we have Williams there is no reason why Dirk should play center.

As for Dirk playing center 2 years ago. He never did. Bradley/Booth was our combination when Howard was here. Dirk was a forward for that time. And when Raef came Dirk was the center. Dirk has never played center until this year.

I agree with you about dirk playing power forward. But bradley was hurt earlier and fortson was such a knucklehead that he couldn't remember what to do half of the time. But you are probably right, nellie should have played fortson even though he didn't knokw what he was doing, then dirk wouldn't have had to be so setback. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Last year dirk didn't play a lot of center. But the year before he played a LOT of center. In fact made the all-star team AS a center.

And yes, when the coach constantly changes your position then it's a little unfair to critize the players defensive productivity.

Why?? Why are basketball players different than football players who have to play multiple positions? The first think Williams said when he got here was how much he was going to have to study to learn Del's defensive playbook? I don't see why they even bothered since they don't give a crap about defense.

Najera struggles at center. Hmmm... is that Najera's fault?

No it's raef not being here and bradley being hurt and no scott williams. Even nellie admits he can't play center but it was either Fortson or Dirk (WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN TERRIBLY STUNTED) or najera. Nellie has said with the addition williams najera won't play any center. Feel better?

NVE struggled at shooting guard last year... is that NVE's fault?

Again what's your point? Did you not want nve to play at the end of games with stevie last year? Nellie just put in his best 5 players and let 'em play. Sure nick was a liability at shooting guard but so was the opponents covering him. Also there seemed to be at least one other team (kings) who have been pretty successful with two point guards. [/quote]

I know you hate nellie but at least try to understand that he doesn't have one of those cartoon jars with new players in it that he just adds water too. He has to play with who he has.

And so far he's exceeded expectations every year. Boy he sucks.

[Bayliss]

Dude, the reason why Dirk doesn't establish position down low as well as those guys is simply because Dirk is just now learning the post. How many years have the other guys been in the post?

I wonder how come Duncan doesn't shoot as many 3s? Or pull his man out and drive around them. Dirk will only get more accustomed to establishing position only if he is put in the post. You can't expect to get better at something if you don't get the opportunity.

As for football players. Who plays multiple positions? i don't recall Emmitt, Troy, Irvin, etc etc playing multiple positions.

Dirk and this team will get better defensively and offensively when the Mavs play a consistent lineup. That is a fact. Whether anyone wants to believe that fact I cannot help that. But there is a reason why some teams have great chemistry and team defense. It is because they know their roles through practice, each player is player their natural position, and each player has perfected their abilities because they know when and where they'll play. Dallas is lacking that this year. I believe they can get there. But Nellie has got to get them some consistency.

[ReDIRKulous]

What do you think is more important for the Mavs to this point? Establishing Dirk in the post? OR establishing the up tempo style that the Mavericks have to use if they are going to be able to do anything this season? We aren't the San Antonio Spurs... we aren't going to play our best slowing the game down... putting Dirk in the post and trying to win with defense. We have to get this team playing up tempo. As we get closer to the playoffs... and we have our running game established then Nellie can start slowing things down a tad preparing for a "slower" game in the playoffs.

This is exactly what Nellie did last season. All uptempo early in the season... then put Dirk down low and prepare him for the playoffs... then against certian teams you can exploit him down there. Dirk was very effective down low against Sac... but not so much against Portland or San antonio.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Bayliss
Dude, the reason why Dirk doesn't establish position down low as well as those guys is simply because Dirk is just now learning the post. How many years have the other guys been in the post?

I wonder how come Duncan doesn't shoot as many 3s? Or pull his man out and drive around them. Dirk will only get more accustomed to establishing position only if he is put in the post. You can't expect to get better at something if you don't get the opportunity.

I don't understand this? Duncan doesn't shoot many 3s because he's not very good at it and isn't quick enough/coordinated enough to pull his man out and drive around him. This actually bolsters my arguement that dirk isn't that great in the post. He may get that way, but I think he had to get stronger to do it.

As for football players. Who plays multiple positions? i don't recall Emmitt, Troy, Irvin, etc etc playing multiple positions.

Ok, ok. But I'm not asking stevie nash to play center here!! I'm asking a big guy to play center/pf. I know it's a stretch but it seems at least plausible.

Dirk and this team will get better defensively and offensively when the Mavs play a consistent lineup. That is a fact. Whether anyone wants to believe that fact I cannot help that. But there is a reason why some teams have great chemistry and team defense. It is because they know their roles through practice, each player is player their natural position, and each player has perfected their abilities because they know when and where they'll play. Dallas is lacking that this year. I believe they can get there. But Nellie has got to get them some consistency.

Last year the mavs had the best center combo they have ever had. A healthy shawn and a healthy raef. Both shot blockers. Do you think it might have helped the defense? So let's look at what's different. Last years versus this years.

Center - Shawn/Raef : Dirk, Najera, Fortson
PF - Dirk : Dirk, Walker
SF - Finley : Jamison,Walker, Howard
SG - Raja Bell, Finley, NVE : Finley, JHoward
PG - Stevie, NVE : Stevie, Best.

So the problem is .....Nellie?? You don't think a healthy raef/shawn helped. And this year we have howard, best, walker...

I just don't see your point bayliss?. Dirk is the only guy even remotely being asked to play two positions, is he stupid or something.

It's all about the shotblocking man, always is.

[Bayliss]

So the problem is .....Nellie?? You don't think a healthy raef/shawn helped. And this year we have howard, best, walker...

I just don't see your point bayliss?. Dirk is the only guy even remotely being asked to play two positions, is he stupid or something.

Walker is actually required to play both forward positions. Antwan Jamison the same. Travis Best has played shooting guard alongside Steve Nash this year. Delk has played shooting guard alongside Steve Nash this year. Finley has been asked to play small forward when Delk has been in the game.

That's more than just Dirk. (And I didn'rt even mention Najera... or Daniels...)

2/3 of our team has to play at least 2 different positions every night. The only players that don't play out of position are Williams, Nash, and Bradley. That's it. Everyone else has to constantly switch their roles offensively and defensively.

Name me another team that has that much "turmoil" with their regular 8? Like I said continuity breeds offensive and defensive cohesion. And offensive cohesion is always easier to gain than defensive cohesion.

[dude1394]

Walker is actually required to play both forward positions. Antwan Jamison the same. Travis Best has played shooting guard alongside Steve Nash this year. Delk has played shooting guard alongside Steve Nash this year. Finley has been asked to play small forward when Delk has been in the game.

Well finley did the same last year. Delk IS a shooting guard,playing pg is out of position. But if you feel that the twan's playing sf/pf cause them so much grief and cause the mavericks defense to stink, then there isn't much we can discuss. I think it's ludicrous.(sp).

And najera/daniels...good grief, they aren't even worth mentioning as they haven't played more than 2 minutes a game.

Name me another team that has that much "turmoil" with their regular 8? Like I said continuity breeds offensive and defensive cohesion. And offensive cohesion is always easier to gain than defensive cohesion.

Do you really want me to go through it or do you just think it's true without doing the homework to back up your opinion?

For example I would imagine that at the very least garnett plays center, forward and small forward. Certainly the kings for example have:
Peja playing power forward/small forward.
Christie playing shooting guard/small forward.
jackson playing shooting guard/point guard.

And for example how different was this last year?? It seemed actually worse in that at least this year finley pretty much stays in position and we don't have best/stevie playing together. Or maybe that's your feeling that this is ALSO the reason they didn't win a championship last year as well.

[Bayliss]

Do you really want me to go through it or do you just think it's true without doing the homework to back up your opinion?

For example I would imagine that at the very least garnett plays center, forward and small forward. Certainly the kings for example have:
Peja playing power forward/small forward.
Christie playing shooting guard/small forward.
jackson playing shooting guard/point guard.

Garnett has been playing a lot of power forward this year because of the acquisition of Ervin Johnson. As for Madsen and Trent... they've been the "center" while teamed with Garnett. But Minnesota has Garnett always as the power forward... Hassell as the 3... Cassell as the 1... and Johnson as the 5. And the only one that "switches positions is Garnett whom is a very rare breed. But 4 out of your starting 5 that always plays the same position is great.

Vlade is always a center for the Kings. When Webber comes back he'll always be a power forward. Peja has been the small forward for that team for a long time. Bibby is always a 1. The only 2 that switch is Christie (whom has declined a lot recently) and Jackson. Everyone else plays their natural position. (Miller will as soon as Webber gets back).

The Lakers have a lot of continuity when everyone is healthy. Shaq is always the center. Payton is always the 1. Fox/George is aloways the 3. Kobe is the 2. Malone is always the 4. They are solid when healthy.

The Spurs have a regular set too. Parker is always a 1. Rasho is always the 5. Duncan is always the 4. Hedo/Ginobili is always the 3. Bowen is always the 3. The only players that play out of position is Rose/Horry when they give Rasho a rest. Everyone else plays only 1 position. They have a lot of continuity.

[dude1394]

Okay... I thought you were being lazy. Let's take a team like the spurs....Here is their last game and the lineups played. San Antonio versus Houston:
Lineups:
Bowen, Parker, Nesterovic,Turkoglu, Duncan...
Ginobli comes in for Turkoglu (ok ginobli is the small forward right? or Pf? I thought Bowen was SF? I'm confused.)
Then Horry comes in for Nesterovic!! Duncan to center, horry to power forward.
Then parker goes out for charlie ward (pg I assume)
Then it's Ward, Horry, Ginobli, Turkoglu, Duncan?? I'm confused again what is turkoglu, ginoblie, Horry. I guess horry, duncan are set as pf and CENTER??
Then it's Horry, Bowen, Parker, Nestoveric, Tukoglu. Hmmm..Parker/Nesterovic are solid. But what is bowen/turkoglu/horry??
Then Bowen, Parker, Nestoveric, Tukoglu, Duncan.
Then they finish the half with Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Nestoveric, Duncan. I'm getting really confused I thought Ginobli was a small forward not a power forward....but then Bowen alwasy plays the 3 so I guess turkoglu is the PF and ginobli is the SF, but in the first quarter he came in for turkoglu...

I'm just so confused and I don't think your theory holds water.


http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bi...09&game=SASHOU

And this is the first half.

[mary]

But the same holds true if they get hurt in a car or a motorcycle accident, yet they are not forbidden to drive. The difference is: Riding a motorcycle does not improve your play, playing in international competition does. Playing in Pickups (without refs?) doesn't sound any better at all.

Yes...well when I was in Junior High my biology teacher told me I could get pregnant if I swam in a pond naked.

Lets stop pretending like playing in pick up games entails the same amount of risk as international play. Did you happen to watch any of the international competition this year? I certainly did - and it was brutal. The refs simply do a poor job officiating the game. If I recall correctly, Nash himself complained in the press last summer that the games were too physical and that the officiating was subpar.

Again, I'm not opposed to players participating in the Olympics, I just don't believe their contracts should be guaranteed. If this rule were changed, would there be owners out there willing to use it as a bargaining chip? I highly doubt it. Individual owners benefit very little from the Olympics even if, as you claim, it boosts international jersey sales.

Yes, this issue obviously breeds a bone of contention between Cuban and his international players, specifically Dirk. I think Dirk is an amazing human being and basketball player, and I hope he is in a Mavericks uniform until the day he retires. As our franchise player, I hope he's always happy playing in Dallas..... but my "fandome" for Dirk doesn't change what I believe is the right thing to do.

[mavsman]

Did you happen to watch any of the international competition this year? I certainly did - and it was brutal. The refs simply do a poor job officiating the game.

No, I didn't see any international competition this year, there hasn't been any involving national teams in Europe this far. But I sure have seen a few hundreds of games in the stands in the last couple of years and I can assure you that I've never seen anything like a Malone-elbow-to-the-face in any of that games. There's a reason they call those Europeans "soft" and "finesse". You don't see much of the brutality you see in pickup games involving amateurs or in NBA games.

[mary]

Originally posted by: mavsman

No, I didn't see any international competition this year, there hasn't been any involving national teams in Europe this far. But I sure have seen a few hundreds of games in the stands in the last couple of years and I can assure you that I've never seen anything like a Malone-elbow-to-the-face in any of that games. There's a reason they call those Europeans "soft" and "finesse". You don't see much of the brutality you see in pickup games involving amateurs or in NBA games.

Sorry, what I meant was last summer during the Americas or Euro tournaments. I can't speak for the EURO games, but the Americas tournament was absolutely physical - no question about it.

[Max Power]

edit

[Max Power]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/ba...ll/7960261.htm

Posted on Sun, Feb. 15, 2004
Stern backs NBA's international play
By Dwain Price
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

LOS ANGELES - Commissioner David Stern stood his ground concerning questions that Mavericks owner Mark Cuban isn't fond of having NBA players playing international basketball.

Like Larry Brown, the Detroit Pistons coach who will also coach the 2004 USA Olympic team, Stern steadfastly said the NBA has benefited handsomely from having its players participate in international competition. But Cuban doesn't believe NBA owners should have to foot the bill if those players are injured.

"We understand what Mark's points are," Stern said Saturday. "It's an interesting issue that we have wrestled with over the years."

Still, Stern isn't wavering on this issue. He knows international players such as Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Yao Ming and Peja Stojakovic have made the NBA a better product and increased its popularity worldwide.

"We are delighted to be part of the international basketball community," Stern said. "Our players have the option or not of participating, and invariably when they travel, for the most part the results have been very positive.

"We have been the beneficiaries of that. We have gotten 70-plus elite international basketball players who paid the ultimate compliment to our game. Yao Ming grew up watching Hakeem Olajuwon and now kids are going to grow up watching Yao Ming, and we think it's terrific."

Cuban also was concerned with the luxury tax owners have to pay if NBA players are injured while playing international basketball. But Russ Granik, the NBA deputy commissioner, said that situation has been somewhat rectified.

"The Board of Governors took a step of doing something to eliminate the problem there so that if you do have the misfortune of a player getting seriously hurt, it doesn't cost you double in the form of a tax," Granik said. "So it was an effort to be accommodating there on that issue."

Stern added that the league will try to assist the owners whenever possible. But he knows having the Dream Team play international basketball is an added bonus and increases visibility for the NBA.

"I would try to help out with disability insurance in case [an injury] does happen," Stern said. "But we are in this. We have jumped into the pool. We'll see where it takes us."

Stern also addressed another sore issue, that being every Eastern Conference team -- except the Atlanta Hawks -- has a new coach since the end of last season.

"I think that our general managers and owners are looking at rosters of theirs that they think are better than they have been in the past, and that are under-performing," Stern said. "And since owners and general managers rarely fire themselves, what they have done in this case, they fire the coaches.

"And by the way, with 75 international players, with an influx of rookies who have an impact on the game, they are right. On paper, their rosters are much better than they have been, and they continue to improve."

[OutletPass]

Just a little from Duncan and Parker:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NBA players, owners ponder toll of international play
Feb. 11, 2004
By Mike Kahn
SportsLine.com Executive Editor


......"We have more international players than just about anybody else in the league, so of course it's going to affect us more," Duncan said. "And yeah, playing in the summer probably had something to do with why we all got hurt early. Your body has funny ways of telling you to slow down. It's unfortunate that it caused our bodies to break down. You don't want to think that, but it's true.

"Hey, it's definitely an honor to be on this Olympic squad and represent this country, but after this summer, I'm going to take time off from this. I don't know what teams I'm going to play on anymore. I won't play on every team, that much I know."

This is just the start. It isn't just physical, the impact is mental as well. Parker, 21, had the burden of running the offense for the Spurs through the Finals, then headed back to France, where the strenuous camp overwhelmed him. Now in just his third season, he has a contract negotiation coming up, and considering the back, shoulder and ankle problems that arose, he is about to bid au revoir to the international team.

A dynamic ball-handler and slasher, Parker hit a wall early on and clearly, until the past couple of weeks, hadn't gotten his legs back. "It all adds up and caused us to have a slow start," Parker said. "Not just us, but all the teams that had players who competed. It affected my play this season and I'm not happy about it. This is a business. I have a contract. If they're not happy with me, they're not going to pay me what I'd like to make. The French National team, they don't pay me. This is a business, and this is my profession. I love my country, but sometimes, you just have to think about yourself and what's best for you in the long run. Definitely, I had too much basketball, and I'm not going to do that again."

[LRB]

Originally posted by: mary



Again, I'm not opposed to players participating in the Olympics, I just don't believe their contracts should be guaranteed. If this rule were changed, would there be owners out there willing to use it as a bargaining chip? I highly doubt it. Individual owners benefit very little from the Olympics even if, as you claim, it boosts international jersey sales.

You mean make getting hurt in the Olympics should be like getting hurt riding a motorcycle or skydiving or other activities currently prohibited in most standard NBA contracts? I certainly agree that this would be a big motivator for players not to play international ball. If you stood to lose, say 50 million dollars if you got hurt, how likely would you be to play international games? Even counting the extra dollars from Tshirt sales, you would still come out a big loser.

[mary]

Yes, LRB that is pretty much what I'm saying.

I don't think playing in the Olympics should be explicitly prohibited (like motorcycles, sky diving, etc.), but I believe if an athelete gets injured during international play, the outcome should be the same.

If that were the case, I believe all countries involved would have a hard time stocking their teams with NBA professionals.

[Murphy3]

I could definitely live with that.