The Short List

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

By that assessment, here's the best we should expect from Carlisle:

Year 1: Make the Finals, lose in 6...
Year 2: 67 wins, first round loss...
Year 3: First round loss, find a new coach...


EDIT: I'M STOKED!!!

So because they have the same personality they're automatically going to have the same results? That just doesn't follow logically.

Avery Johnson's biggest weakness was X's and O's ( in my and many others opinion).

Rick Carlisle's biggest strength is X's and O's (again, he was the lead assistant to Larry Bird, who had zero coaching experience, on very successful Pacer teams).

Now, they certainly share a character trait in that they are both hard asses, I grant you that. But they are very different coaches, imo.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So because they have the same personality they're automatically going to have the same results? That just doesn't follow logically.

Avery Johnson's biggest weakness was X's and O's ( in my and many others opinion).

Rick Carlisle's biggest strength is X's and O's (again, he was the lead assistant to Larry Bird, who had zero coaching experience, on very successful Pacer teams).

Now, they certainly share a character trait in that they are both hard asses, I grant you that. But they are very different coaches, imo.

Semi-tangent (not so much in direct response to your post):


How did a lousy X's & O's coach like Avery beat the Spurs to get to the Finals, then win 67 games the next season?

I'm not claiming that Avery's critics are wrong, I'm just wondering how it was possible - I always thought an X's & O's coach was as necessary to REACH the Finals as a big man was to WIN the Finals... How did we achieve such a remarkable feat under a fool's guidance?

Could we have done the same if Isiah Thomas was our coach? Is Dirk really such a badass that he can carry an entire team despite their coach? And if so, why couldn't he do it the year he was voted MVP, even though the Mavs retained their core players (or did Adrian Griffin really make that much of a difference)?

I'm just curious as to WHY Avery failed during his tenure in Dallas and how a bunch of candidates whose resumes are a lot less impressive than his are going to turn this team around... Answer that question with any clarity, then it should be obvious who our next coach should be (if X's & O's are truly our problem, then Carlisle might be the answer - but then again, our problems might run a lot deeper than X's & O's...)



[oh, and I'm not trying to be an ass or defend Avery here - I'm just seriously confused about what went wrong the past 3 seasons...]

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'm not claiming that Avery's critics are wrong, I'm just wondering how it was possible - I always thought an X's & O's coach was as necessary to REACH the Finals as a big man was to WIN the Finals... How did we achieve such a remarkable feat under a fool's guidance?

Could we have done the same if Isiah Thomas was our coach? Is Dirk really such a badass that he can carry an entire team despite their coach? And if so, why couldn't he do it the year he was voted MVP, even though the Mavs retained their core players (or did Adrian Griffin really make that much of a difference)?

I'm just curious as to WHY Avery failed during his tenure in Dallas and how a bunch of candidates whose resumes are a lot less impressive than his are going to turn this team around... Answer that question with any clarity, then it should be obvious who our next coach should be (if X's & O's are truly our problem, then Carlisle might be the answer - but then again, our problems might run a lot deeper than X's & O's...)


[oh, and I'm not trying to be an ass or defend Avery here - I'm just seriously confused about what happened the last 3 seasons...]

you're summing up my position very well.

I also add to this, if Avery was the problem, why aren't other potential coaches lining up for an opportunity to coach such an enormously talented roster?

jvg -- no thanks
del harris -- no thanks
lil whistle -- no thanks

even larry brown didn't bother to wait and see if the mavs job would open up....

(the implication here is possibly that these guys watched what avery did with the team and they're thinking, 'you know, I don't know that I could have done any better')

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

you're summing up my position very well.

I also add to this, if Avery was the problem, why aren't other potential coaches lining up for an opportunity to coach such an enormously talented roster?

jvg -- no thanks
del harris -- no thanks
lil whistle -- no thanks

even larry brown didn't bother to wait and see if the mavs job would open up....

So because three people removed their names from considereation for three distinctly different reason (JVG I'm making a bit of a leap, but the other two are cetainly cut and dried) that must mean people are RUNNING away from this horrible roster.

Ok.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So because they have the same personality they're automatically going to have the same results? That just doesn't follow logically.

Avery Johnson's biggest weakness was X's and O's ( in my and many others opinion).

Rick Carlisle's biggest strength is X's and O's (again, he was the lead assistant to Larry Bird, who had zero coaching experience, on very successful Pacer teams).

Now, they certainly share a character trait in that they are both hard asses, I grant you that. But they are very different coaches, imo.

This is exactly why I think Rick is a huge step up from Avery.

Avery being a harsh, in your face coach isn't what tuned this team out. It was the failures year after year and the questionable decision's Avery made.

if anyone can tolerate a strict coach it's Dirk.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So because three people removed their names from considereation for three distinctly different reason (JVG I'm making a bit of a leap, but the other two are cetainly cut and dried) that must mean people are RUNNING away from this horrible roster.

Ok.

what was Harris' reason, again?

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

what was Harris' reason, again?

The way I understood it, it's Cuban and Donnie's choice not to include Harris on the list... along with Harris sharing those sentiments for the same reasons.

The bench needs a voice that hasn't been heard during Avery's tenure. (excluding donnie obviously since he had a completely different role and isn't connected directly to what happened on the bench, in the coaching staff, and the coaching blunders that surround Avery and Avery's crew).

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

what was Harris' reason, again?

Link

As we understand it, Del Harris sent an email to three news outlets: ESPN, the Dallas Morning News and DallasBasketball.com. (We’re humbled!) In the missive he wrote, "I will be looking to be more active in coaching next year somewhere in the NBA. Having said that, while I would like to try head coaching again, I do not think that changing roles from assistant to head coaching here in Dallas would be in my or the Mavs' best interests. My entire relationship with players would have to change, and I have found that to be a difficult proposition in the past."

[Evilmav2]

Originally Posted by Underdog

"Carlisle = Avery Clone" has 100% to do with their personality-type... Avery wasted 3 years of Dirk's prime as a hard-headed dictator - do we want more of the same with Carlisle?

Then, perhaps you should have written that in your initial post, if that is what you meant to say, because the fact remains that Rick Carlisle and Avery Johnson are fundamentally different coaches in terms of their styles, temperaments, and relative history of effectiveness, and thusly are not the, 'clones' that you described them as being...

All that aside, I do tend to agree with Jthig that Carlisle is the best of the bunch when it comes to the limited coaching candidates that the brain-trust seems to be sorting through (assuming that they are definitely not going to bring in a college guy), and his shelf life of three or so years should suffice to keep our aging Mavs competitive for as long as we continue to attempt to ride our Dirk horse. At the very least, he certainly would represent a tremendous improvement over Avery as a half-court offensive coach, and the historical defensive effectiveness of his Pacer's and Piston's teams stand as testament to his probable effectiveness as a defensive coach for our Mavs...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Semi-tangent (not so much in direct response to your post):


How did a lousy X's & O's coach like Avery beat the Spurs to get to the Finals, then win 67 games the next season?

I'm not claiming that Avery's critics are wrong, I'm just wondering how it was possible - I always thought an X's & O's coach was as necessary to REACH the Finals as a big man was to WIN the Finals... How did we achieve such a remarkable feat under a fool's guidance?

Could we have done the same if Isiah Thomas was our coach? Is Dirk really such a badass that he can carry an entire team despite their coach? And if so, why couldn't he do it the year he was voted MVP, even though the Mavs retained their core players (or did Adrian Griffin really make that much of a difference)?

I'm just curious as to WHY Avery failed during his tenure in Dallas and how a bunch of candidates whose resumes are a lot less impressive than his are going to turn this team around... Answer that question with any clarity, then it should be obvious who our next coach should be (if X's & O's are truly our problem, then Carlisle might be the answer - but then again, our problems might run a lot deeper than X's & O's...)



[oh, and I'm not trying to be an ass or defend Avery here - I'm just seriously confused about what went wrong the past 3 seasons...]

It's weird, cause Avery's X's and O's seemed pretty damn brilliant throughout most of that playoff run, and through most of the 67-win season.

I mean, really, Avery looked like one of the 2-3 best coaches in the league in that WCF against Phoenix. The Mavs were down 15-20 points in Games 3 and 6, in Phoenix, and both times they came out in the second half and ended up holding Phoenix to about 30 points in the entire 2nd half.

Avery did outcoach Pop too, contrary to what some people will tell you about how it was all Dirk. And he didn't just do it in those playoffs, he did it at least 2/4 times in the 06-07 season as well.

Who knows what happened after that. I'm sure it was a combination of other coaches figuring out Avery, as well as the players just not responding to him like they needed to.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

It's weird, cause Avery's X's and O's seemed pretty damn brilliant throughout most of that playoff run, and through most of the 67-win season.

I mean, really, Avery looked like one of the 2-3 best coaches in the league in that WCF against Phoenix. The Mavs were down 15-20 points in Games 3 and 6, in Phoenix, and both times they came out in the second half and ended up holding Phoenix to about 30 points in the entire 2nd half.

Avery did outcoach Pop too, contrary to what some people will tell you about how it was all Dirk. And he didn't just do it in those playoffs, he did it at least 2/4 times in the 06-07 season as well.

Who knows what happened after that. I'm sure it was a combination of other coaches figuring out Avery, as well as the players just not responding to him like they needed to.

Part of those 3rd-4th quarter comebacks had to do with Avery's motivational skills, which is something we've always given him credit for. The problem is that once the players started tuning him out (towards the end of the 07 season), he didn't have the necessary Xs and Os skills to fall back on.

[alexamenos]

whatever....

the point is you don't see a rush of big names saying "ooh look, multi hall of famers on one team, please let me coach...." why not? why didn't Larry Brown say to Charlotte, "wait just a sec, I'd kind of like to see what happens in Dallas?" Why didn't Jeff Van Gundy say, "this is a great opportunity for me to get back on the bench?"

i again echo underdog's comments....

there's a problem in this franchise, and the facts don't lend themselves exceedingly well to the theory that the dysfunction is/was primarily on avery.

[jthig32]

On Avery's X's and O's, many things are hard to really nail down.

However, one thing that I 100% buy into right now is that Del Harris was fully responsible for our defensive philosophy and execution, and Avery simply allowed him to implement it when Nellie would not. Call me naive if you want, but the performance and overall defensive decision making this season back me up.

If Avery moves on and turns out other defensively dominant teams then so be it. I will have to reevaluate perhaps.

On the offensive side of the ball I have a harder time nailing down what went wrong, but you can't deny that Dirk played out of his mind in '06, can you? I'm not removing all credit from Avery for that run, but Dirk truly was playing on another level.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Part of those 3rd-4th quarter comebacks had to do with Avery's motivational skills, which is something we've always given him credit for. The problem is that once the players started tuning him out (towards the end of the 07 season), he didn't have the necessary Xs and Os skills to fall back on.

That doesn't detract from the tactics, though. Avery made specific adjustments in all those games that I very clearly remember. He also made a fantastic adjustment between Game 1 and Game 2, when he asked the players to drop their focus on offensive rebounds in favor of getting back in transition, which resulted, as I recall, in Phoenix's transition points dropping from 30 to 4 between Games 1 and 2.

He also eliminated the switch on every screen and roll to help mitigate our mismatch problems with Diaw, and inserted Diop back into the rotation in order to make Nash hesitate around the rim.

He surely was a great motivator, but he also made some very shrewd pure coaching moves in those series, which is why I was so surprised when he didn't seem to be able to do that anymore just two years later.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

whatever....

the point is you don't see a rush of big names saying "ooh look, multi hall of famers on one team, please let me coach...." why not? why didn't Larry Brown say to Charlotte, "wait just a sec, I'd kind of like to see what happens in Dallas?" Why didn't Jeff Van Gundy say, "this is a great opportunity for me to get back on the bench?"

i again echo underdog's comments....

there's a problem in this franchise, and the facts don't lend themselves exceedingly well to the theory that the dysfunction is/was primarily on avery.

I don't think Larry Brown would ever work for Cuban. So I don't think it has anything to do with the roster.

As far as the dysfunction, time will tell I guess.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Evilmav2

Then, perhaps you should have written that in your initial post, if that is what you meant to say, because the fact remains that Rick Carlisle and Avery Johnson are fundamentally different coaches in terms of their styles, temperaments, and relative history of effectiveness, and thusly are not the, 'clones' that you described them as being...

You're right, they're not clones - Avery Johnson has been to the Finals (but they both won COTY - that must count for something!)

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea of making Rick Carlisle our coach, but only because I'd love to see Stackhouse start an Artest-like riot with the fans in San Antonio...

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

That doesn't detract from the tactics, though. Avery made specific adjustments in all those games that I very clearly remember. He also made a fantastic adjustment between Game 1 and Game 2, when he asked the players to drop their focus on offensive rebounds in favor of getting back in transition, which resulted, as I recall, in Phoenix's transition points dropping from 30 to 4 between Games 1 and 2.

He also eliminated the switch on every screen and roll to help mitigate our mismatch problems with Diaw, and inserted Diop back into the rotation in order to make Nash hesitate around the rim.

He surely was a great motivator, but he also made some very shrewd pure coaching moves in those series, which is why I was so surprised when he didn't seem to be able to do that anymore just two years later.

The difference in success between the 06 playoffs and the 07-08 playoff years is huge.

Who knows what goes on behind the scenes, or how overrated or underrated the coaches impact on the game really is...

it makes sense for the success in 06 to be because of his motivational personality, which began to wear off causing him to be less successful in the two years to come

it doesn't make sense for his success in 06 to be because of his Xs and Os, which he somehow had as a inexperienced, rookie coach... which he then began to lose as he gained more experience.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

He surely was a great motivator, but he also made some very shrewd pure coaching moves in those series, which is why I was so surprised when he didn't seem to be able to do that anymore just two years later.

especially with respect to the playoffs this year, I think a fellow has to start off by recognizing just how epically bad Stackhouse and J-HO were. as poorly as they played, and given the options off the bench of Devean George or Eddie Jones, any decision was bound to look kind of ugly.

Seriously....I think we all recognize at some level that J-Ho and Stack were bad, but it seems like we don't grasp the implications of their epic badness in this series.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The difference in success between the 06 playoffs and the 07-08 playoff years is huge.

Who knows what goes on behind the scenes, or how overrated or underrated the coaches impact on the game really is...

it makes sense for the success in 06 to be because of his motivational personality, which began to wear off causing him to be less successful in the two years to come

it doesn't make sense for his success in 06 to be because of his Xs and Os, which he somehow had as a inexperienced, rookie coach... which he then began to lose as he gained more experience.

It may or may not "make sense," but the absolute fact of the matter is that Avery made some great tactical decisions in those playoffs, up until the last series, that had absolutely nothing to do with his motivational skills. I just named a few, and there are plenty more.

Besides, the idea that it was all his motivational skills doesn't make any sense either. Are you telling me suddenly when it came to the Finals, he no longer could motivate his guys? No. What happened was that Riley was the first guy in those playoffs to outsmart him with X's and O's.

[seelenjaeger]

Hmm, the more I look at that list the more I get intrigued to write Cubes some emails about going after Bird and Dunleavy ...

[jacktruth]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

It may or may not "make sense," but the absolute fact of the matter is that Avery made some great tactical decisions in those playoffs, up until the last series, that had absolutely nothing to do with his motivational skills. I just named a few, and there are plenty more.

Besides, the idea that it was all his motivational skills doesn't make any sense either. Are you telling me suddenly when it came to the Finals, he no longer could motivate his guys? No. What happened was that Riley was the first guy in those playoffs to outsmart him with X's and O's.

To add, a big key to motivation is what you are motivating teams to do. If your Xs and Os are elementary and you don't have a game plan and can't make in-game adjustments,

all of the motivation in the world means nothing. To be a great coach, you have to be good at both Xs and Os and motivation.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

....What happened was that Riley was the first guy in those playoffs to outsmart him with X's and O's.

and for the most part, Riley's genius X's and O's amounted to: "give ball to wade, everybody else watch."

[slowmo]

It was more like "Give the ball to Dwhiner and let the refs do the rest!"

[ghazi]

2006 finals were rigged, I am so gloomy today.

[Evilmav2]

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

Hmm, the more I look at that list the more I get intrigued to write Cubes some emails about going after Bird and Dunleavy ...

I'd be hugely in favor of either, Seelen, but unfortunately Bird is going nowhere. He didn't like the hustle and bustle of day to day coaching back when he was first working for the Pacers, and there's no way he is going to leave that organization now that Donnie Walsh has finally yielded the GM spot to him. Mike Dunleavy on the other hand...

[Texas Hokie]

For those asking for a reason for Avery's "failure", here is a stab at a substantive answer:

-Avery has demonstrated a increasing tendency (year over year) towards excessively odd substitution patterns and player rotations. There was rarely, if ever, any consistency. Many assumed that Avery was "fine tuning" and would ultimately settle into a standard rotation. That never happened. Many believe that the failure to have defined roles was a factor in player's being unable to succeed in those roles. A side note on this issue, is that Avery appeared to have a love affair with certain players, no matter how poor their performance (exhibit A, Mr. Stackhouse).

-Avery appears to have issues coaching point guards. Granted, Devin Harris had his limitations, but Avery was extremely resistant to giving Devin any freedom in the point guard role. Even Avery has admitted this was a mistake. The mistake appears to have been repeated with Kidd, who almost surely was never in as "restricted" a role as the one he experienced the last few months.

-My person pet peave, Avery seemed intent on recreating the Spurs "system". Granted, that is a very good system, but this appears to have been a classic square peg, round hole, issue. A good coach can modify his system to get the best out of his players. Avery seemed intent on modifying his players (especially Dirk and Kidd) to match his system. Can anyone show me how Avery "adapted" as personnel changed?

-This year, it appears that Avery's shelf life expired. The players stopped listening. If you can hear Avery yelling one thing from the sideline, and the players to the opposite, they are not listening anymore.

-Ultimately, a good coach can make his team better than the sum of its parts. The Mavericks overachieved in 2006, and Avery should get lots of the credit. The exact opposite is true in the playoffs last year, and all of this year. The Mavericks have underachieved and appear less than the sum of their parts. Some appear to think the Mavericks are what they are, and the results should not be on Avery at all. But ask yourself what players have grown under his tutelage? Dirk yes, as Avery demanded that he become a more well rounded player. But I can’t think of a single other player. That is not a sign of a good coach.

So what does this tell about what we are looking for in a new coach. Personally, I want a coach is not beholden to any "system". One that will look at the talent available, and maximize the W's with talent by tailoring a system to meet their skills and weaknesses. I have seen no evidence of that for years, and it would be a refreshing change.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

and for the most part, Riley's genius X's and O's amounted to: "give ball to wade, everybody else watch."

Unfortunately.

[dirno2000]

Dunleavy is someone that I'd be interested in.

[alexamenos]

is that dunleavy the player or the clipper's coach?

if it's the clippers coach, I hope cubes will give me veto power over whoever he might hire.

[seelenjaeger]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

is that dunleavy the player or the clipper's coach?

if it's the clippers coach, I hope cubes will give me veto power over whoever he might hire.

It´s the Clips coach, former Lakers coach, former Portland coach, et al. Balanced system, big experience, know how to use talent and how to develop players.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Anyone know why Van Gundy took his name off?

Still stung by those 05 playoffs?

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

It´s the Clips coach, former Lakers coach, former Portland coach, et al. Balanced system, big experience, know how to use talent and how to develop players.

and kind of a loser who tanked his way down the stretch one year and the next year bitched and moaned because he thought the mavs were tanking to avoid playing the pitiful clips.

[seelenjaeger]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

and kind of a loser who tanked his way down the stretch one year and the next year bitched and moaned because he thought the mavs were tanking to avoid playing the pitiful clips.

Marketing Baby I consider any coach who talks more about opponents than his own stupid incompetent squad he never wanted to work with a huge net gain.

Actually I just don´t buy the Skiles plan, I don´t see any Van Gundy coming here, and D´Antoni has a mission to take the Chicago spot from avery, so he can go to NY and show the league what he really can achieve with his coaching powers. That´s making it a damn short list, and that´s making me really wanting someone with serious veteran coaching skills in here even more.

But well, moot discussion, he´s not on anyones radar anyways.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Anyone know why Van Gundy took his name off?

Still stung by those 05 playoffs?

Stein suggested personal issues and still being able to have a good relationship with his family being the reason for still not wanting to coach. It's not b/c it's the Mavericks, because he likes Cuban and Co. it's just that he doesn't want to coach any team right now.

The list will be pretty small.
D'Antoni, Carlisle, Flip, Eddie, Donnie...maybe a wild card.

But that appears to be your list and a lot of those are pretty conditional choices, so it's even smaller than that.

[alexamenos]

mike dan tony does not rise above the motta line for me.

that is, i'd rather see motta get a third try than see mike dan tony as head coach.

[dalmations202]

Are there any big name European, Italian, etc coaches that Cuban/Donnie might have an interest in?

I have no idea, but they are starting to have a market for players, coaches can't be too far behind.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

Even though it was mentioned as a joke I'd be all for a Bob Knight hiring. No I'm not kidding. He'd bring discipline, the motion offense (done to perfection) and defense. That is exactly everything the Mavs need. I seriously thing we'd have the best chance to win with Knight, just give him a 2 year contract and see what happens. I also don't think the Mavs fit the mold as a team with "NBA superstars with egos" No way in hell is it going to happen but if it did I think it could actually work.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Are there any big name European, Italian, etc coaches that Cuban/Donnie might have an interest in?

I have no idea, but they are starting to have a market for players, coaches can't be too far behind.

D'antoni was a euro coach wasn't he?

[rmacomic]

What about Rudy T? Is he available?

[wmbwinn]

Has anyone talked to Riley?