Iverson Traded to Detroit - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-03-2008, 02:49 PM

If we had held on to Devin Harris this long I think we could of been the ones landing Billups/McDyess, which would of been great.

alby · 11-03-2008, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Why in the hell would they buy out McDyess? That guy is pretty solid. What a weird move.

I was thinking the same thing.

nikeball · 11-03-2008, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by alby

I was thinking the same thing.

Because Kmart never gets hurt..he is so solid!

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 02:57 PM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Don't think I agree with that either. He's a much better scorer and just as good of a passer. He's not as good on D because he's so undersized, but that's about it.

Iverson is the more prolific scorer but he also shoots more. Bullups routinely finishes higher in TS%.

If you look at assist ratio Iverson usually finishes around 20 while Billups usually finishes around 30. A/TO Iverson hovers around 2, Billups has been over 3 for the past three years.

Denver is starting a lesser player in Anthony Carter at the point so they don't have to play Iverson there. We can argue better player but I'd say Billups is clearly the better PG.

alby · 11-03-2008, 02:58 PM

Watch him get bought out and sign with LA or Boston or SA or Hou or back with Det for really cheap...

alby · 11-03-2008, 02:59 PM

eureka

let's go after Mcdyess. you can never have too many solid big bodies.

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

If we had held on to Devin Harris this long I think we could of been the ones landing Billups/McDyess, which would of been great.

Denver wants expiring contracts. We'd have had a better shot of landing Billups and McDyess with Kidd than with Devin and trash.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-03-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Denver wants expiring contracts. We'd have had a better shot of landing Billups and McDyess with Kidd than with Devin and trash.

They want expiring contracts to eventually get good young players, Devin Harris fits that category. I think they would of done it.

But yeah I also agree we could of done it now with Kidd, which I would of liked as well. I think Billups has more left than Kidd and McDyess would be a great pickup.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

They want expiring contracts to eventually get good young players, Devin Harris fits that category. I think they would of done it.

But yeah I also agree we could of done it now with Kidd, which I would of liked as well. I think Billups has more left than Kidd and McDyess would be a great pickup.

They already have a young PG. And what would this team do wtih McDyess?

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 03:11 PM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

I think it's great for Detroit. It's like a better version of the Kidd deal. They shake things up this season, and if it doesn't work well, they let all that salary fall off the books, and have a head start on rebuilding.

On the other hand, what the hell is Denver doing? They gave away Camby for luxury tax purposes, and now they're going to pay Billups pretty big money well into his 30's.

And not only that, they're going to buy out McDyess even though he's owed another 7 mil next season? What on earth?

I mean, I think Billups makes them significantly better right away, but significantly better for them (without Camby) means they now have a decent shot at the 8 seed.

I just don't get it.

My guess is, they decided that they decided they weren't going to bring Iverson back and they didn't want to lose him for nothing. They're not in a good position to tear it down and rebuild so they throw the fans a bone and bring in the hometown guy who also fills a need (getting Smith in the starting lineup).

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 03:22 PM

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Originally Posted by dirno2000

My guess is, they decided that they decided they weren't going to bring Iverson back and they didn't want to lose him for nothing. They're not in a good position to tear it down and rebuild so they throw the fans a bone and bring in the hometown guy who also fills a need (getting Smith in the starting lineup).

I guess, but it would completely depress me to root for a team so desperate to stay under the luxury tax that they give away a player like Camby, and then don't have the guts to really, truly rebuild with a different financial model.

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 03:38 PM

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Originally Posted by dirno2000

Iverson is the more prolific scorer but he also shoots more. Bullups routinely finishes higher in TS%.

If you look at assist ratio Iverson usually finishes around 20 while Billups usually finishes around 30. A/TO Iverson hovers around 2, Billups has been over 3 for the past three years.

Denver is starting a lesser player in Anthony Carter at the point so they don't have to play Iverson there. We can argue better player but I'd say Billups is clearly the better PG.

I'm not sure wha tyou think the distinction is between "better player" and "better PG." They both play PG, so the two issues are one in the same. Obviously, AI plays a different style of PG, but it's certainly a viable style for the position.

You could argue that you like the way Billups plays the position better, but if you admit that AI is a better player, then you are essentially admitting that he's a better PG, too.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 03:43 PM

Except AI hasn't been playing PG.....

In some ways it's the question of Jet vs JJB. Jet is clearly the better player, but he's not the better PG, and Carlisle has (apparantly) decided that means something.

Denver made the same decision when they decided to move AI to SG and play Carter instead of JR Smith.

rabbitproof · 11-03-2008, 04:03 PM

Detroit FTW.

Shakes them up which Dumars wanted to do. This definitely better than the proposed Billups/Hamilton or Billups/Prince deals that were tossed around in the offseason.

They're a little small to bang with Boston but they weren't going to beat them straight up anyways.

And now they'll reload for the offseason of LeBron.

sike · 11-03-2008, 04:08 PM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

I mean, I think Billups makes them significantly better right away.

I assume this has more to do with other players than just the differences between AI and CB...

sike · 11-03-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Iverson is the more prolific scorer but he also shoots more. Bullups routinely finishes higher in TS%.

If you look at assist ratio Iverson usually finishes around 20 while Billups usually finishes around 30. A/TO Iverson hovers around 2, Billups has been over 3 for the past three years.

Denver is starting a lesser player in Anthony Carter at the point so they don't have to play Iverson there. We can argue better player but I'd say Billups is clearly the better PG.

So true shooting percentage and 1 more turn over a game make Billups a better overall pg? What about AI as a dynamic game changer? What about AI's assists and steals? I certainly don't buy that its a clear cut case.

I won't argue the specifics (maybe Smith coming in at the 2 justifies it for Denver), but if you ask me, "who would you like at your pg?" and I can only choose between those two players, I choose AI.

Zki41 · 11-03-2008, 04:17 PM

Denver gets a point guard and a big man to replace marcus camby (maybe not at center, but just a low post presence)

Iverson is probably going to play SG and Rodney Stuckey is going to start PG.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:22 PM

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Originally Posted by sike

I assume this has more to do with other players than just the differences between AI and CB...

Well...it has something do with it...but I've always considered Iverson a fantasy basketball player. His actual contribution on the court does not match his numbers.

And of course..he's not a PG.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:26 PM

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Originally Posted by sike

So true shooting percentage and 1 more turn over a game make Billups a better overall pg? What about AI as a dynamic game changer? What about AI's assists and steals? I certainly don't buy that its a clear cut case.

I won't argue the specifics (maybe Smith coming in at the 2 justifies it for Denver), but if you ask me, "who would you like at your pg?" and I can only choose between those two players, I choose AI.

Dirno addressed the assists.Billups has had significantly better assist ratios than Iverson his entire career.

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 04:27 PM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not sure wha tyou think the distinction is between "better player" and "better PG." They both play PG, so the two issues are one in the same. Obviously, AI plays a different style of PG, but it's certainly a viable style for the position.

Two different well respected coaches have moved him to SG so I'd question how viable his style is.

Quote:

You could argue that you like the way Billups plays the position better, but if you admit that AI is a better player, then you are essentially admitting that he's a better PG, too.

I would agree with that logic for every position except PG. There are subtleties to the position that make it unique.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:28 PM

BTW, everyone just watch what happens to Billups' and Iverson's numbers as they switch to dramatically different offensive paces.

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 04:30 PM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

Except AI hasn't been playing PG.....

In some ways it's the question of Jet vs JJB. Jet is clearly the better player, but he's not the better PG, and Carlisle has (apparantly) decided that means something.

Denver made the same decision when they decided to move AI to SG and play Carter instead of JR Smith.

I don't think that's really a fair comparison, though. JET doesn't have real PG skills. AI clearly does. Regardless of what position he's playing right now, he clearly is in the mold of a "scoring" type PG. Hasn't he had seasons where he averaged 8+ apg?

Bottom line, if I'm building a team right now and I have the choice at PG (not SG) between AI and Billups, and I can put any age issues aside, I'm picking AI every time. Of course, that's just my opinion.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:34 PM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't think that's really a fair comparison, though. JET doesn't have real PG skills. AI clearly does. Regardless of what position he's playing right now, he clearly is in the mold of a PG. Hasn't he had seasons where he averaged 8+ apg?

Bottom line, if I'm building a team right now and I have the choice at PG (not SG) between AI and Billups, and I can put any age issues aside, I'm picking AI every time.

Well..with respect I think you're nuts. Billups is a better distributor, better shooter, better rebounder and better defender.

sike · 11-03-2008, 04:38 PM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

Well..with respect I think you're nuts. Billups is a better distributor, better shooter, better rebounder and better defender.

so you're really arguing with this post that Billups is a better basketball player, is that correct?

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 04:41 PM

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Originally Posted by sike

so you're really arguing with this post that Billups is a better basketball player, is that correct?

Seems like it, which I completely disagree with. But, I respect thiggy, so to each his own.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:42 PM

For their careers? Very debateable. Right now? Hell yes.

I'm telling you, go look at the minutes Billups plays on the slowest offensive team in the league. His numbers are going to blow up in Denver.

I still don't like the trade from Denver's perspective, but Billups offensive abilities still go largely underrated unless you look at his per minute numbers and ratios.

Tell me which of those statements I made is false? Distributor, shooter, rebounder, defender.

horse900703 · 11-03-2008, 04:44 PM

hell no, r u kidding me

dirno2000 · 11-03-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

so you're really arguing with this post that Billups is a better basketball player, is that correct?

You think Kobe is the best player in the game right? If Phil Jackson moves him to PG, does that automatically make him the best PG in the game?

destroy ALL · 11-03-2008, 04:48 PM

mavs should go for mcdyess. when kidd and mcdyess were teammates in PHX it was a lobfest gala. I know theyre old now and mcdyess's knees are even a glimpse as explosive as what they used to be, but he still a very solid player.

Check tis out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQC5g7yezgs

also just for fun...The All-time Jason Kidd team:

PG - Kidd (NJ Nets edition)
SG - Marion (Suns Edition)
SF - K-Mart (Nets Edition)
PF - McDyess (Suns Edition)
C - Damp? (Mavs Edition)

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You think Kobe is the best player in the game right? If Phil Jackson moves him to PG, does that automatically make him the best PG in the game?

Kobe isn't nearly the distributor that AI is. As with thiggy's comparison to Jet, this is not a fair analogy.

AI absolutely is a point guard, unless Tony Parker, Devin Harris, and other "score-first" PG's don't qualify as PG's.

horse900703 · 11-03-2008, 04:54 PM

this is pointless~

sike · 11-03-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You think Kobe is the best player in the game right? If Phil Jackson moves him to PG, does that automatically make him the best PG in the game?

Of course not. But has Kobe played the point guard for much of his career? I must have missed that.

Not the same situation, dirno, but nice try.

AI is not a typical pg, I freely admit such. But from the point, even dominating the ball as he does (which most pgs should not do) he is still a better point guard than Chauncey. Does Billups do certain things better than AI? Sure. Is AI still one of the most explosive and productive players in the universe? Sure. If I have to choose who I want on my team starting from scratch I don't think twice. Like I said, this trade might be best for Denver because of personnel, but one to one, I'll take AI.

To thig's point....I'm fine with whatever thig has to say now, because he just admitted that his personal belief is that Billups is a better player than AI.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Kobe isn't nearly the distributor that AI is. As with thiggy's comparison to Jet, this is not a fair analogy.

AI absolutely is a point guard, unless Tony Parker, Devin Harris, and other "score-first" PG's don't qualify as PG's.

Then why does he keep getting moved to SG?

alby · 11-03-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

They want expiring contracts to eventually get good young players, Devin Harris fits that category. I think they would of done it.

But yeah I also agree we could of done it now with Kidd, which I would of liked as well. I think Billups has more left than Kidd and McDyess would be a great pickup.

Although I respect your claim, I disagree. Harris would be behind Stuckey and Rip at the guard positions.

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Then why does he keep getting moved to SG?

Apparently because Denver feels like the drop-off between AI and the next best option at SG is larger than the drop-off between AI and the next best-option at PG (which may be fair, given their personnel).

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 05:06 PM

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Originally Posted by sike

To thig's point....I'm fine with whatever thig has to say now, because he just admitted that his personal belief is that Billups is a better player than AI.

Is this really all I'm going to get from you here? You're really going to act like it's preposterous to have the opinion that Billups, the key cog and finals MVP of a championship team, who's per minute offensive numbers have been comparable or better across the board the last two seasons, is a better overall player at this point? Then throw in the fact that Billups is a massively better defender, and hasn't had two well respected coaches move him off PG...I dunno, I don't get it. Debate the points with me, fine. Give me your own feelings on why AI is better. But don't like it's completely ludicrous. Billups is an elite point guard in the NBA.

jthig32 · 11-03-2008, 05:07 PM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Apparently because Denver feels like the drop-off between AI and the next best option at SG is larger than the drop-off between AI and the next best-option at PG (which may be fair, given their personnel).

Um, no, that's completely backwards. They made this trade specifically to get JR Smith on the floor.

Ever since they move AI to SG they've been trying to figure out who the heck to start at PG. They tried several different guys.

And Denver's not the only team that moved him to SG either.

Dirkenstien · 11-03-2008, 05:13 PM

It'll be interesting to see how each team changes up on court. I think this makes Denver better and it could make Detroit a little better but it's a risk. I definitely see the cap room incentive for Detroit, though.

sike · 11-03-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Is this really all I'm going to get from you here? You're really going to act like it's preposterous to have the opinion that Billups, the key cog and finals MVP of a championship team who's per minute offensive numbers have been comparable or better across the board the last two seasons, is a better overall player at this point? Then throw in the fact that Billups is a massively better defender, and hasn't had two well respected coaches move him off PG...I dunno, I don't get it. Debate the points with me, fine. Give me your own feelings on why AI is better. But don't like it's completely ludicrous. Billups is an elite point guard in the NBA.

Thig, you won't get any argument from me that Billups is a top pg in this league...and for the record I have not implied anything remotely close to that.

The reason there doesn't seem to be a point in discussing it, is because you have already made your stance on AI very clear. You think he is a vastly overrated player who throws up stats making him valuable in fantasy but that do not equate to on the floor quality. I simply disagree.

I think he is one of the most consistently explosive offensive basketball players we seen in the past 30 years. He does play point guard...AND he does play shooting guard (Certainly his sensational scoring ability puts him in the realm of the best shooting guards, but his ability to create buckets for teammates is that of a high end pg). Call his position what you will, it seems to be that when I watch him play, he is functioning as a point guard most of the time. Billups is great and has been incredibly fortunate in Detroit. AI is first ballot hall of fame.

LonghornDub · 11-03-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Um, no, that's completely backwards. They made this trade specifically to get JR Smith on the floor.

Ever since they move AI to SG they've been trying to figure out who the heck to start at PG. They tried several different guys.

And Denver's not the only team that moved him to SG either.

No need to be condescending. I've read the same stuff as you, and I'm well aware that they are making this trade partly in an effort to get Smith more PT.

Still, the only way your argument here makes sense is if we presuppose that Denver would do something completely illogical. If they didn't feel that the drop-off at SG was bigger than the drop-off at PG, they wouldn't have moved Iverson to SG. There'd be absolutely no reason to do it. There's no way Anthony Carter is a better option at PG than AI straight up, so why not make AI the starter at the 1 and Smith can start at the 2?