What, no topic on the rumors about Zo? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 07:11 AM

Raef falls into the catergory of Najera, Wang and Buckner...

When I read this I thought.."Are you on crack?".....then I read the rest. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 08:33 AM

<< Mavs trade:
LaFrentz, Van Exel, Bradley, a 1st rounder, and 3 Million

Miami trades:
Alonzo Mourning

I think that this trade overestimates the value of Mourning by quite a lot but maybe that is so the trade will work for the salary cap.

I don't see this working for the fact I don't see LaFrentz agreeing to a move to Miami. I don't like it for the fact that LaFrentz has many more years in the NBA than Mourning does. And you just don't give away young centers. >>

If this is what it took to get Mourning, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I agree that LaFrentz isn't likely to acquiesce to a deal sending him to Miami, but if he did, I'd make this deal before Miami changed their mind.

Sure, LaFrentz has a lot more years left than Mourning. But those years will be years spent as a 13/7 guy who blocks a lot of shots while commiting lots of fouls. They'll be spent as a power forward playing out of position at center, with no post game to speak of, and with an inability to contain top post-up players inside.

I agree that you don't give away young centers. But LaFrentz is not a center, and we certainly wouldn't be giving him away...

<< Me too but it's the only way outside of losing Finley that the numbers would work. Zo is a short timer. Raef is future star. >>

Two points here.

First, I disagree that Raef's a future star. I'd love to keep him around because I think he'd be a great 6th man for a long time, but he's not suddenly going to emerge into a great low-post defender and/or post player. Raef works hard, but he's never going to be mistaken for a defensive stopper. Hopefully, though, Riley will buy into the idea that LaFrentz is his big man of the future, so we won't have to throw Finley into the equation to acquire Zo.

Second, how do we know Zo is a short timer? The guy could easily play another 5 years, especially in Dallas where he's only asked to provide occasional low-post scoring, defend, rebound, and block shots. And what if he is? So much the better for Dallas, because Zo has 1 year left on a $20 million/year contract. I know Duncan's not likely to leave San Antonio, but if Zo busts, you'd at least have the cap room and opportunity to try to lure Duncan. That's something the Mavs have no shot at right now. And if Duncan doesn't want to come to town, do you think that some of the other stud FA's out there wouldn't be enticed by a piece of that $20 million in cap room? Bottom line, I think acquiring Zo would be a great short-term and long-term move, because of the immediate upgrade for next year, and the flexibility for the next offseason that it would provide.

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 08:38 AM

Also, just to show the immediate impact on the team, here's what the roster would look like next year after this deal:

Mourning - Eschmeyer/Wang
Nowitzki - Najera
??? - Askrabic
Finley - Griffin
Nash - AJ

I like that squad. The one addition that would then be needed is a starting SF, possibly one that could play some backup PG as well.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 09:18 AM

uhm..sf's that play backup PG don't exactly grow on trees

Bayliss · 06-04-2002, 10:55 AM

<< uhm..sf's that play backup PG don't exactly grow on trees >>

From what I've heard Askrabic might just fill that role. Of course Don Nelson doesn't play rookies, but....

Nellie is the master of matchups and unpredictability but he is amazingly rigid. He has 1 philosophy... and doesn't change (although on the court it changes **a lot**. Not sure if that made sense or not.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 10:57 AM

from what i've heard, he's a couple of years from contributing

Bayliss · 06-04-2002, 11:40 AM

Well, if he puts up numbers similar to Dirk's first year or Peja's first year or Parker's first year or Hedo's first year or Kirilenko's first year I'd be happy.

I'm looking for him to give us about 5 points, a coouple of rebounds, one or two assists, some decent d, and play about 15-20 minutes a game.

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of him, but I don't think I am.

(Oh and as a sidenote just because I expect him to put up similar numbers as those other europeans in their first year does not mean I am saying he'll have a better career.)

Hoopsmeister · 06-04-2002, 11:47 AM

<< Second, how do we know Zo is a short timer? The guy could easily play another 5 years, especially in Dallas where he's only asked to provide occasional low-post scoring, defend, rebound, and block shots. And what if he is? So much the better for Dallas, because Zo has 1 year left on a $20 million/year contract. I know Duncan's not likely to leave San Antonio, but if Zo busts, you'd at least have the cap room and opportunity to try to lure Duncan. That's something the Mavs have no shot at right now. And if Duncan doesn't want to come to town, do you think that some of the other stud FA's out there wouldn't be enticed by a piece of that $20 million in cap room? Bottom line, I think acquiring Zo would be a great short-term and long-term move, because of the immediate upgrade for next year, and the flexibility for the next offseason that it would provide. >>

Actually, the Mavs are going to be so far over the cap starting next year that even Mourning's 20 million coming off the books would not give us cap room--it would save Cuban the luxury tax but that's it. So in addition to the risk of his health, taking Morning on also runs the risk, if he doesn't resign next year, of all the moves made over the last 2 years having been for absolutely nothing.

I agree that Raef is not a 'star-to-be'. I think he's better than a sixth man, but I don't think he will ever be more than a solid role player for a good team. But Raef also doesn't have all the question marks Zo has, and I think the Mavs are too close to be taking extreme gambles like this.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-04-2002, 11:50 AM

<<

<< Mavs trade:
LaFrentz, Van Exel, Bradley, a 1st rounder, and 3 Million

Miami trades:
Alonzo Mourning

I think that this trade overestimates the value of Mourning by quite a lot but maybe that is so the trade will work for the salary cap.

I don't see this working for the fact I don't see LaFrentz agreeing to a move to Miami. I don't like it for the fact that LaFrentz has many more years in the NBA than Mourning does. And you just don't give away young centers. >>

If this is what it took to get Mourning, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I agree that LaFrentz isn't likely to acquiesce to a deal sending him to Miami, but if he did, I'd make this deal before Miami changed their mind.

Sure, LaFrentz has a lot more years left than Mourning. But those years will be years spent as a 13/7 guy who blocks a lot of shots while commiting lots of fouls. They'll be spent as a power forward playing out of position at center, with no post game to speak of, and with an inability to contain top post-up players inside.

I agree that you don't give away young centers. But LaFrentz is not a center, and we certainly wouldn't be giving him away...

<< Me too but it's the only way outside of losing Finley that the numbers would work. Zo is a short timer. Raef is future star. >>

Two points here.

First, I disagree that Raef's a future star. I'd love to keep him around because I think he'd be a great 6th man for a long time, but he's not suddenly going to emerge into a great low-post defender and/or post player. Raef works hard, but he's never going to be mistaken for a defensive stopper. Hopefully, though, Riley will buy into the idea that LaFrentz is his big man of the future, so we won't have to throw Finley into the equation to acquire Zo.

Second, how do we know Zo is a short timer? The guy could easily play another 5 years, especially in Dallas where he's only asked to provide occasional low-post scoring, defend, rebound, and block shots. And what if he is? So much the better for Dallas, because Zo has 1 year left on a $20 million/year contract. I know Duncan's not likely to leave San Antonio, but if Zo busts, you'd at least have the cap room and opportunity to try to lure Duncan. That's something the Mavs have no shot at right now. And if Duncan doesn't want to come to town, do you think that some of the other stud FA's out there wouldn't be enticed by a piece of that $20 million in cap room? Bottom line, I think acquiring Zo would be a great short-term and long-term move, because of the immediate upgrade for next year, and the flexibility for the next offseason that it would provide. >>

I think ur being a lil hard on Lafrentz. Even Charles Barkley thinks this guy has a future in the NBA. What ur doing is ur basing the way Lafrentz played when he played for the Mavs but u cant do that because he was busy finding his role on this squad. U have to give him more time to show what he can do. I dont see why we give them 3 mill and NVE and Lafrentz for Mourning. like someone said that is overestimating his value. But it would make sense to do it to acquire a free agent but when Mourning is gone we will still be over the cap I believe. Mourning could retire next season or the season after this is just to risky to be doing and giving up 2 of our players to get an old Mourning who isnt dominative like he was back in 97. Tho if we could somehow get Miami's pick which I think is the 10th I would be interested or somehow they send us Eddie Jones in the deal tho im sure it doesent work contract wise.

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 01:53 PM

<< uhm..sf's that play backup PG don't exactly grow on trees >>

Which is why I said "possibly." I don't do this deal based on an ability or inability to acquire another free agent who may or may not exist.

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 02:06 PM

<< Actually, the Mavs are going to be so far over the cap starting next year that even Mourning's 20 million coming off the books would not give us cap room--it would save Cuban the luxury tax but that's it. So in addition to the risk of his health, taking Morning on also runs the risk, if he doesn't resign next year, of all the moves made over the last 2 years having been for absolutely nothing.
>>

Hoopsmeister, I am by no means a salary cap guru and I haven't looked into this, but I find it hard to believe that dumping $20 million PER YEAR in salary wouldn't create cap room. Could you explain how the Mavs are $20 million over the salary cap PER YEAR???

If it's true that the Mavs would be left empty-handed with no cap room flexibility if Mourning just left after next year, I'm not as enthusiastic about the deal.

<< I agree that Raef is not a 'star-to-be'. I think he's better than a sixth man, but I don't think he will ever be more than a solid role player for a good team. But Raef also doesn't have all the question marks Zo has, and I think the Mavs are too close to be taking extreme gambles like this. >>

I guess what I meant was that Raef would be considered an excellent 6th man. Sure, he has enough skill to be a starter, but I think the Mavs will have a tough time improving like they need to if Raef is a starter, unless the 5th starter is a bruising PF that pushes Nowitzki to SF. And with Nelson, I don't see that happening.

I readily concede that Raef is a safer bet than Mourning. I guess I just don't see it as an extreme gamble, and as stated above, don't think that standing pat with Raef at center is the answer, unless the Mavs are going to be able to add an interior rebounder/defender/post player at the 4 spot, which is currently manned by Nowitzki. Given the choice between benching or trading one of those two, I choose Raef, and I'm sure everyone else would too.

If we can acquire the interior player we need without trading Raef, I'm all for it. If we can't, though, this deal is worth considering...

<< I think ur being a lil hard on Lafrentz. Even Charles Barkley thinks this guy has a future in the NBA. What ur doing is ur basing the way Lafrentz played when he played for the Mavs but u cant do that because he was busy finding his role on this squad. U have to give him more time to show what he can do. >>

I really don't think I'm being hard on LaFrentz, just being realistic. I agree with Charles Barkley that LaFrentz has a future in the league. I just believe that his future is as a 13 ppg/7 rpg/2 bpg guy who isn't a very good interior defender or rebounder and who can't post up. And those are the things we need from LaFrentz, or someone else playing the center position for the Mavs.

Giving LaFrentz more time won't change his skills to make him capable of all the things I listed above.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 02:23 PM

the mavs could resign zo after next year though...
it wouldn't necessarily be a one and done thing

why would the mavs move raef, nve and cash for zo?
because to get to the next level, the mavs need more of an inside presnce on defense and a guy that can give you a little more inside on offense

however, saying that, i'm very interested in brian grant

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 02:38 PM

I like Grant a lot too. There was a time just a few years ago when he outplayed Karl Malone, and I think he's got nice offensive, defensive, and rebounding abilities if put on the right team.

I wonder what it would take to acquire Grant and/or Jones?

Could we get Grant for NVE? Would you do that? I think you might have to.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 02:44 PM

grant for nve?
hell yes

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 02:45 PM

shaq has admitted that players like grant are the ones that frustrate him the most...
remember when the blazers took the lakers to 7 games?
well, grant did a good job during that series when guarding shaq

FilthyFinMavs · 06-04-2002, 02:50 PM

Ok explain this Why cant we just sign Mourning in 03? Where there wont be any question marks its either he can still play or he cant. The Mavericks are not in a rush to win a championship. I just dont see how we can be effective if we have no backup for Nash which leads to Nash being banged up and more than likely playing like bs in the playoffs. While we could just keep our same players and maybe even signing some guys like Jerome James or Malik Rose or Matt Hapring or even a James Posey. I just dont see why would u take a risk while the Mavs are on top of there game now and just trade away the reason why they are effective. Remember when Nellie decided to go "BIG" with Golden State and drafted Chris Webber? Looked what happened there I just dotn want the same thing to happen to our Mavs.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 03:00 PM

what happened in golden state should have no bearing on what the mavs are trying to do.

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 03:06 PM

The Mavericks are not in a rush to win a championship.

what?

Bayliss · 06-04-2002, 03:21 PM

Two things about Nellie going big in GS.

1) Even with Run TMC, he was playing Tom Tolbert at center. His biggest guy he used on the court was 6'8" and his best player was only 6'7". And that was in a time where centers were a plenty. GS was chewed up and spit out every single year in the playoffs.

2) Yes he drafted Chris Webber and had Webber not been a crybaby Nelson would've done something. Nelson finally has a big man. Dirk is 5" taller than GS' best player. And he is already better than that player ever was. Dirk will listen to Nellie, loves Nellie. That is the difference. Now Nellie just needs to realize he has the height, he just needs to use it more consistently. He's thinking that the Mavs aren't an elite team so he coaches like they aren't. Instead of the opposite.

And I say let's get Zo, for NVE, Raef, or whomever.

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 03:44 PM

I think I would rather have Grant than Zo at this point.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 04:02 PM

i would love to have grant

Hoopsmeister · 06-04-2002, 04:04 PM

<< Could we get Grant for NVE? Would you do that? I think you might have to. >>

Could we? I doubt it. Should we? Sure, if Miami would take that we should jump on it.

Hoopsmeister · 06-04-2002, 04:06 PM

<< I'm looking for him to give us about 5 points, a coouple of rebounds, one or two assists, some decent d, and play about 15-20 minutes a game. >>

Agreed. If he can the Mavs all that at the small forward position, then he is a major signing--not by the old standards, but by the standards of an elite team tweaking things to get over the hump.

Hoopsmeister · 06-04-2002, 04:09 PM

<< Ok explain this Why cant we just sign Mourning in 03? >>

We won't have the cap room. If Mourning's illness hasn't taken him out by then he will command more than the exception and that is all the Mavs are going to have to sign people for many years to come. Larger contracts will have to come in trade or in a player willing to take the exception for a year or two to qualify for Bird rights.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 04:10 PM

was he meaning sign zo after he was traded here or sign zo via free agency

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 04:12 PM

miami is probably looking to move grant.. it'll be interesting to see what they want for the guy

PeterVecseyisdumb · 06-04-2002, 04:35 PM

I haven't seen many miami games in the last few years, mainly because the miami heat are boring. How has Brian Grant's game changed since he left portland? I was under the impression that brian grant likes to shoot jumpers now, on offense. I think I heard that brian grant has lost some weight. If that is true, then is he good defensively, now? I know he had a reputation as a banger in portland. Does anyone know if brian grant's game has changed since he left portland?

Hoopsmeister · 06-04-2002, 04:39 PM

<< Hoopsmeister, I am by no means a salary cap guru and I haven't looked into this, but I find it hard to believe that dumping $20 million PER YEAR in salary wouldn't create cap room. Could you explain how the Mavs are $20 million over the salary cap PER YEAR??? >>

I'm not a salary cap guru either, but these are facts as far as I can tell--the Mavs were at $57 million at the start of this year. Since the mid-season trade had to be equivalent salaries, we must have finished the year around $57 million as well. Next year, that will go up significantly as Dirk goes from his friendly rookie contract to his superstar max contract, Lafrentz gets a major raise, all the other players under contract get standard raises, etc. The only players who might come off the cap make, by NBA standard, miniscule money and several of them (Najera, Buckner) are probably coming back with raises themselves anyways. Not to mention the use of both or either exception to add 1 or more player. So the Mavs should be at $65 million next year--and that's very conservative. Dirk's raise gets us almost that far by himself. If we use both exceptions, we are probably more like $70 million.

Since both we and Miami are over the cap, we'll have to match salaries on a trade, so getting Morning doesn't change the figures (Raef will still get his raise as part of a sign & trade). We are still at (at a minimum) $65 million. When Morning comes off the books the next year, that drops us to $45 million(again, that's very conservative; we'll probably be closer to $50 million).

The cap for this year was 42.5 million. All the reports are predicting a flat cap for the next several years which means its not going to be more than 47.5 million in 2003 and that's generous. So being generous on the cap growth, and conservative on the Mavs salaries, Morning coming off the books puts us 2.5 million under the cap--that actually hurts since being under the cap means you don't get the mid-level exception which is 4.5 million. IOW, we have less money to sign free agents than we did if we were over the cap. Mor likely, we'd be sitting at 50 million plus and still over the cap.

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 07:00 PM

Um, please stay away from my checkbook. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

MavsFanFinley · 06-04-2002, 09:03 PM

Ok, I like the idea of adding Grant. I'd feel safer with him over Mourning at this point.

He had sugery on his shoulder recently. Anything to be concerned about??

HEAT NOTEBOOK
Grant undergoes arthroscopic surgery on shoulder
BY BARRY JACKSON
bjackson@herald.com

Heat forward Brian Grant will be unable to play basketball for six to eight weeks after undergoing arthroscopic surgery on his right shoulder.

He is expected to be ready for the start of training camp.

Grant missed 54 games in the 1996-97 season to repair an incomplete tear of the rotator cuff in the same shoulder.

Grant remains a candidate to be traded this offseason. He has five years left on a seven-year, $86 million contract.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 09:08 PM

i'm not too worried about zo.. he played alot of games and quite a few minutes this past year..i expect him to come back a bit stronger next year

kg_veteran · 06-04-2002, 10:23 PM

Hoops - Thanks for that explanation. Makes it evident that trades are the only way to go for quite a while...

I am all for going after Zo or Grant. Zo's health isn't that big of a deal, and surely the Mavs could re-sign their own FA in 2003, right? Grant would also be a nice, and perhaps more affordable option.

Maybe you could get Grant for NVE and Najera...

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 10:33 PM

If anyone can pull off a Zo or Grant to Big D deal it will be Nellie & Cuban.

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 10:33 PM

I'm just afraid of the cost.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 10:34 PM

i'd be all over that trade...

it'll be interesting... you'd think that if a trade was made it would either be
zo and jones
or
zo and grant

i think miami might be looking to get rid of grant but i think the mavs would like the combination of jones and zo better.
the mavs would have to give up a package of something likely have to give up fin, lafrentz and nve for those two..
getting zo and grant might be take a bit less in return

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 10:35 PM

well, the cost is what you have to weigh...
the mavs might have to give something up that we wouldn't necessarily want to see in order to get an inside presence on offense and defense

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 10:42 PM

To get Zo and Jones it would take Fin and Raef in return. No thanks.

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 10:47 PM

and NVE too. Way too rich for a fundamental change in team makeup. It would change the Mavs too drastically, screw up the chemistry this team has and slow down the team.

Murphy3 · 06-04-2002, 11:07 PM

maybe...but it might also be what the mavs need..the mavs will instantly become much better defensively and not really lose that much offensively. they would take a step down at two guard but a significant step up at center... yes, nve's scoring off the bench would be missed but much of that would be taken up with the discrepancy in zo's scoring over lafrentz and dirk would also be free to take 19-20 shots a game.

now, with all that said, i'd think long and hard before i pulled the trigger on that trade

Drbio · 06-04-2002, 11:15 PM

you do raise some good points there. I would be giddy if Zo got here...but I would hate to lose Finley. I am not as attached to Raef/NVE but I think Raef could be special in the near future.