Marquis traded for Austin Croshere

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Well KVH >>>WAS<<< coming off an injury so his stats would suck. What was Croshere's problem?



But why give away an asset for nothing? If Croshere is on the same level as KVH then why not just keep KVH?

It is a PURE salary dump - a move Donald Sterling would envy.

What makes you think he was an asset? Your own opinion? What evidence is there that Marquis was an asset? Why WOULD the Mavs GIVE away an asset?

The answer? They wouldn't. Cuban is not in the business of giving away assets. He IS in the business of moving bad contracts, ala Raef, ala Marquis.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Cuban was going to pocket the money then yeah, it would be a Sterling move. But Cuban will use the saved money to get better talent somewhere else.

The OLD Cuban would. This Cuban has shown no evidence of using the saved money for anything.

[MavsFanFinley]

He wasn't an AJ player so it's no surprise he was shipped off.

[Bookit]

Originally Posted by dude1394

His shot never came around, his pg play didn't come around. He could drive to the basket but in the playoffs that ole' stuff doesn't work because there are really good defenders in there.

Well, his point guard play definetly sucked but Marquis is better as a passing shooting guard. It will be interesting to see how Indiana plays him.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

The OLD Cuban would. This Cuban has shown no evidence of using the saved money for anything.

So resigning JET, working on extension for Dirk and Josh, and trying to aquire Mike James.....

What are all those? Donald Sterling moves?

The old Cuban/new Cuban stuff is bunk. Yes, he a bit smarter with his money. He doesn't want to pay Luxury Tax if he doesn't have to. btu he isn't hording his money.

Some people just don't realize what they have. We trade the 10th man on our roster and somehow that makes Cuban Donald Sterlnig. My God.

[Rhylan]

AWWWWW MAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN.

I've been disappointed in Marquis, but Croshere? Ugh.

Stack better stay healthy next year.

Maybe this means Bonzi is somehow in the picture, but I sure don't see how.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Really? What has Croshere done in the playoffs recently?

Hmmm. 6 games last year - 29 minutes per game, 3.7 boards, and shot 31% from the field.

Yep, Avery is going to fall all over himself to play THIS stud.

Pure salary dump

At least give him all his due. Shot 39% from 3pt, 89% ft%., 18ftas.

Keith...
12.6Mpg, 34% fg, 29%3pt, 2.3 rpg, 3fta's,

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Bookit

Well, his point guard play definetly sucked but Marquis is better as a passing shooting guard. It will be interesting to see how Indiana plays him.

He can't SHOOT man. I just don't get it why folks loved marquis so much when he can't SHOOT. It's important for basketball players to be able to shoot.

[Bookit]

Originally Posted by dude1394

He can't SHOOT man. I just don't get it why folks loved marquis so much when he can't SHOOT. It's important for basketball players to be able to shoot.

He can shoot pretty darn well actually but nothing outside of 10 feet.

[frisco06]

Not sure what the mavericks were suppose to get in return for Daniels. This is about what you could expect. Daniels could probably have provided alot more value to the mavericks if he had a jump shot. Croshere can at least attempt to serve a role on this team as a backup to Dirk. Im still not sure what position Daniels play. He can't shoot and he's not a ball handler. I'd be willing to bet the rookie Ager turns out to be a better player.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight

And if player a has talent but the coach never plays him or he can't play because he's injured... does that plaer really have talent?

MFFL: if Avery will not play him or he can't get on the court because of injuries... why keep him?

I remember Daniels starting a lot of games and playing VERY well until a freak injury sidelined him. There is no reason to assume that Avery didn't like Daniels, just that there were players who filled a better role for the Mavs. And there isn't a guarantee that those players can fill that role next year. What if Griffon slows up that half step that is ONLY difference between him being employed in the NBA and not? What about injury? We didn't have much luck with injury last year - suppose it is worse this year?

And he has had a couple of freak injuries but it is not a recurring injury or an injury that would handicap him later. Big Z in Cleveland had some injuries early in his career and he's been healthy as a horse for the last couple of years.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Cuban is not in the business of giving away assets. He IS in the business of moving bad contracts

And we wouldn't have to move those bad contracts if CUBAN didn't sign players to those bad contracts. Having to constantly move out "mistakes" is the sign of a bad management team.

It is a GREAT money move but a VERY POOR basketball move.

Cuban = Sterling

[bernardos70]

1. Get rid of Stack
2. Marquis instantly gets more minutes
3. ?????
4. Profit!

How many more years does stack have in him? Worst trade ever. Damn it.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Cuban = Sterling

Because he traded away a 12th man.

Man, and I thought I was the only person on this board that was Waltonesque.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by jthig32

What makes you think he was an asset? Your own opinion?

And it is YOUR OWN OPINION that Daniels is not an asset.

I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

And we wouldn't have to move those bad contracts if CUBAN didn't sign players to those bad contracts. Having to constantly move out "mistakes" is the sign of a bad management team.

It is a GREAT money move but a VERY POOR basketball move.

Any real Mavs fan knows that Marquis' contract was all about Nellie.

Cuban = Sterling

I'm officially done arguing with you, because you've shown your intelligence with this. Even Madape wouldn't go this far in bashing Cubes. That is a ridiculous, RIDICULOUS statement.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

And it is YOUR OWN OPINION that Daniels is not an asset.

I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

My opinion has the backing of facts. Facts like Marquis was an undrafted free agent that had a good few months.

Facts like Marquis could not find the court most of his final two years, either from injury or absolute suckage.

Facts like we just traded Marquis for what essentially is a salary dump, and Mark freaking Cuban of all people, would not take a salary dump if he could have aqruired a more expensive asset with the same trade.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MFFL

And it is YOUR OWN OPINION that Daniels is not an asset.

I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

It was also the opinion of the NBA market that he wasn't a valuable asset. Just like when you put your house on the market, you may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it is ONLY worth as much as someone will pay you for it.

This was how much someone was willling to pay for Marquis.

[aexchange]

this is by far the worst trade of the mavs era.

this is absolutely atrocious. fred jones better be a part of this deal, or i'm going to puke.

[dude1394]

rom our friends over at Pacersdigest.. a great board with wonderful and very knowledgeable basketball fans.



Jermaniac: "He is probably one of the best teammates in the NBA, a real pro. Hustles his ass off. Shoots freethrows good. Can hit the 3 everynow and then, sometimes he looks like Peja from the 3 and sometimes he looks like Shaq from the 3.

Will have a game that makes you say WOW Croshere should be starting for this team. Then he will have 5 games where he totally sucks it up and makes no kind of contribution to the team. Picks up little injuries as the season goes on."



Pignash "He got a concussion about half way through the year. He played very well with large amounts of minutes though, which is his MO. Also he shoots the three well if open, he rebounds pretty well, he drives are crazy looking but sometimes effective. I'll let someone better do the rest."





PacerTom: "Look at your own Keith Van Horn and imagine him a little stronger. Probably a little slower too, but generally healthy (before the 2 concussions) and a smart guy who is probably good in the locker room too."



Jjbjjbjjb: "Croshere looked like a true veteran leader this year. I think if nothing else you get a great locker-room guy and a guy who wants to win.

He drives to the basket probably more than he should, given that he's not much of a passer and not much of a finisher. But he tries. Generally he can stick the 3, and he's tall so he can get that shot off most of the time he wants, though he doesn't have the quickest release. Pretty good spot-up shooter in transition."



IUcoltPacerFan: "Awesome teammate and occasional dangerous outside threat. When he gets on a streak, look out. But, if he doesn't get minutes, then he doesn't seem to be as good. Good luck to him in Dallas. "



DisplaceKnick "About the same as what's been said - lunch-pail type. Has been benched and had uncertain minutes at times in his career and never complained. Good rebounder. Works his tail off on D but not quick enough to defend most SF's and has a hard time bodying up the real power players though he's gotten better. And I'd call him an intelligent defender.

Streaky shooter and very often his confidence and overall game seems to depend on whether he hits his first shot or two after coming in the game - though this is better than it used to be too. Can put the ball on the floor if there's an opening but can't really break people down off the dribble though at times he seems to think he can. Has shown some post offense - not a lot but some - in the past 2-3 years.

Good guy, smart player and if a coach uses him right he can really help a team. If a coach doesn't use him right everyone will hate him (see Isiah Thomas)."

[Nash13]

What are we all mad about?

I would really like to know what the trade value for Daniels is for those who don't like this trade? I don't mean to come down hard or be rude, but none of you work the phones or converse with NBA executives or the Mavs front office. Not all GMs see this 25yr old kid with the potential to average 20/6/6. They go by what they see. They see a guy who is average on defense, average slasher, average rebounder, average passer in the halfcourt game, terrible decision-maker in the fullcourt game, no real distance from the field. He's someone who on a good night will get you 12/4/4. If the Pacers resign Fred Jones and keep SJAX and Granger, then Daniels isn't going to be ask or will be wanted to do much more than 12/4/4.

[jthig32]

We traded our 10th man. How can this possibly be the worst trade of any era?

Fred Jones coming back. LOL. Gimme a break.

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

He can't SHOOT man. I just don't get it why folks loved marquis so much when he can't SHOOT. It's important for basketball players to be able to shoot.

People loved Marquis because he was different and he was our first taste of young athleticism in the late-Nellie era while Josh was hurt during their rookie year. Marquis was a tease of versatility and has the physical skills to be a good defender. Plus, he couldn't shoot from the outside so he HAD to do things that the Antoines and the Big Three wouldn't do in 2004. He was a breath of fresh air and a huge undrafted surprise, so people took to him.

But he really is an enigma of a player. Like dude said, he can't shoot. He's not that great of a ball handler, but he makes some amazing passes in between stupid decisions. He just does things other people don't do much of, but doesn't really do any one thing exceptionally well. Some game circumstances make him look like an all star and other game circumstances make him look like a bum.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

People loved Marquis because he was different and he was our first taste of young athleticism in the late-Nellie era while Josh was hurt during their rookie year. Marquis was a tease of versatility and has the physical skills to be a good defender. Plus, he couldn't shoot from the outside so he HAD to do things that the Antoines and the Big Three wouldn't do in 2004. He was a breath of fresh air and a huge undrafted surprise, so people took to him.

But he really is an enigma of a player. Like dude said, he can't shoot. He's not that great of a ball handler, but he makes some amazing passes in between stupid decisions. He just does things other people don't do much of, but doesn't really do any one thing exceptionally well. Some game circumstances make him look like an all star and other game circumstances make him look like a bum.

This is a very good assessment.

[Male30Dan]

Wow... Some of the Mavericks fans need to step away from the ledge. This was a positive trade as we simply would not have any room for Daniels with another guard like James/Wells on the way in, (very very likely to be James). Hell, he couldn't get many minutes WITHOUT James/Wells, do you really see him getting them WITH one of those two here? We needed a backup PF and we got one that is a better defender, better rebounder, and a better shooter EVERYWHERE on the court than Kitten. How is this a TERRIBLE deal?

Sure, we get a KVH-like player and lose Daniels and KVH, so I can see how you are saying 1-2=negative; however, we are basically trading Daniel's salary to Indy to allow Mark to sign James to the same contract. So look at it like this: Croshere+James>KVH+Daniels, despite the difference in age.

I say it is fine with me. Daniels was nothing but frustrating to me, and that is being nice. I will miss Evil's funny ass photos of Daniels, but guys, you need to ask yourself a question. Can a guy that can't shoot really start for us at SHOOTING GUARD when we have title aspirations? He is a backup guard and nothing more, despite who may start him in the future.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Any real Mavs fan knows that Marquis' contract was all about Nellie.

And you are the only REAL Mavs fan...

Show me some facts that the contract was all about Nellie. Maybe it was about Cuban being embarrased about losing Nash and overpaying Daniels as to not lose two players. My opinion on this is far more likely since Cuban makes the money decisions.

My opinion has the backing of facts. Facts like Marquis was an undrafted free agent that had a good few months.

And how many teams would have loved to redo that draft? And that is a horrible example - Howard was the 28th pick. Further you have to have TALENT to do it even for a couple of months.

Facts like Marquis could not find the court most of his final two years, either from injury or absolute suckage.

You mean the player that started 29 games for us last year and averaged 13.2 ppg, 4.6 reb, 3.7 ast, and shot almost 48% in those starts? I wish we had MORE players who sucked that bad.

Facts like we just traded Marquis for what essentially is a salary dump, and Mark freaking Cuban of all people, would not take a salary dump if he could have aqruired a more expensive asset with the same trade.

When is the last time Cuban has acquired a more expensive asset?

[foglemann]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

People loved Marquis because he was different and he was our first taste of young athleticism in the late-Nellie era while Josh was hurt during their rookie year. Marquis was a tease of versatility and has the physical skills to be a good defender. Plus, he couldn't shoot from the outside so he HAD to do things that the Antoines and the Big Three wouldn't do in 2004. He was a breath of fresh air and a huge undrafted surprise, so people took to him.

But he really is an enigma of a player. Like dude said, he can't shoot. He's not that great of a ball handler, but he makes some amazing passes in between stupid decisions. He just does things other people don't do much of, but doesn't really do any one thing exceptionally well. Some game circumstances make him look like an all star and other game circumstances make him look like a bum.

I'm probably one of the biggest Marquis supporter, but Rhylan is spot on with his discription. Pile on Avery's attitude to him and you got what happened in this trade.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

When is the last time Cuban has acquired a more expensive asset?

KVH at last year's trade deadline. Next question.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by jthig32

KVH at last year's trade deadline. Next question.

That actually happens a year and a half ago. The contracts were the same dollar amounts between the players. KVH was more expensive as a yearly rate but was one year shorter.

Try again.

[destroy ALL]

ok ok ok...how would the trade sound if indiana signs KVH as a FA for cheap?

[Big Shot Rob]

Guys--you were robbed big time.

Sorry for being so blunt--but a spanking is a spanking.

This trade was a spanking--could have gotten more for Marquis.

[The Crippler]

This is a good deal. Marquis is not very good and many here overrate him so badly.

[Drbio]

Originally Posted by destroy ALL

ok ok ok...how would the trade sound if indiana signs KVH as a FA for cheap?

It would sound the same. KVH will sign somewhere. He is gone. That changes nothing.

[Male30Dan]

I sure can appreciate a guy saying we could have gotten more when I trust that we likely called around to get the best deal we could for him, (keeping in mind that we wanted a backup PF in return).

[bobatundi]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Cuban was going to pocket the money then yeah, it would be a Sterling move. But Cuban will use the saved money to get better talent somewhere else.

I swear, people can find ANYTHING to complain about. Marquis Daniels was NOTHING for us. NOTHING. We were paying him WAY too much to be the 10th man on the bench.

My goodness.

On the subject of Cuban not pocketing the money, let's not forget that he LOWERED season ticket prices for next year. Actually giving some money back to the fans who actually PURCHASE the right to bitch and moan.

I'm so tired of hearing people call Cuban cheap--we had the 2nd highest payroll in the league last year. We re-signed Terry. We're going to extend Dirk and Howard. We'll probably get James. So as much as I love Marquis, the fact that we turned a guy our coach wasn't going to use into a serviceable backup PF--one of our main offseason needs--and will save $25MM in the deal, sounds like a pretty reasonable deal to me.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MFFL

That actually happens a year and a half ago. The contracts were the same dollar amounts between the players. KVH was more expensive as a yearly rate but was one year shorter.

Try again.

Last year as in year before this past season. My aplogies on the semantics.

We traded Alan Henderson and Calvin Booth for KVH. Henderson's deal was ending at the end of the year, Booth's was ending in two years, same as KVH (I think).

Even if Booth's was a year longer than Keith's, Henderson's contract was ending at the end of the year. So we tied the salaries of two players, one of which was ending at the end of the year, into one player, for another year.

How is this hard to understand?

[jhoistheman]

Now, I might be totally wrong and if I am, I apologize, but isn't it possible that the Mavericks might have traded Daniels for Croshere because the Raptors would be more willing to S/T James for Croshere, who would be an expiring contract, than Daniels, who would eat up a bit more cap space for Toronto. Perhaps Toronto wanted to get something else for Mike James than Daniels, and Croshere is what they wanted. Not saying this is the case, perhaps a little bit of wishful thinking.

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by jthig32

We traded our 10th man. How can this possibly be the worst trade of any era?

Fred Jones coming back. LOL. Gimme a break.

its not that we traded our 10th man. that really is materially irrelevant. its about the fact we traded our best 2, and were left stuck with crackhouse. this is a completely obvious salary dump from a multitude of levels.

croshere, stack both come off the books next season. and the talent isn't going to be replenished. the fact AJ is thinking about bringing in that nutcase mike james makes me want to root for a pathetic team like the craptors. at least there is hope on the horizon for them.

let's see, does this look like a checklist for a successful team?
- overpay and sign a 17pt game 6'3" 1/2 guard 29 year old to a 6 year, 50 million dollar contract.
- keep your most boneheaded idiot 2 guard on the roster who makes exactly zero people around him better.
- watch hornets trade pj brown and jr smith for chandler and instantly find someone who has a chance of guarding amare.
- prepare to offer a 3-5 year deal at the full MLE to a career spare who has had 1 successful season and then add him to the roster where you just signed a player to a 6 yr/50 mill deal, and also used a #5 pick on a player 2 years ago. by the way, did i mention he's not going to be able to stop any perimeter penetration?
- draft a 2 guard from college, tout him as a wade stopper, only to have spartan fans tell you that the first time he D's up, will be the first they've ever seen any evidence.
- our best utility man who can be had for cheap looks to be gone.
- we have the biggest giant stiff of a center who after 3 years still doesn't have a damn clue

our off season has amounted to more of the knicks than more of the mavs. this is an atrocious offseason. i've been a fan for ages now, and trust me, i can smell the shit storm when its coming to town. and we're in for a total stinker of a season.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by aexchange

its not that we traded our 10th man. that really is materially irrelevant. its about the fact we traded our best 2, and were left stuck with crackhouse. this is a completely obvious salary dump from a multitude of levels.

croshere, stack both come off the books next season. and the talent isn't going to be replenished. the fact AJ is thinking about bringing in that nutcase mike james makes me want to root for a pathetic team like the craptors. at least there is hope on the horizon for them.

let's see, does this look like a checklist for a successful team?
- overpay and sign a 17pt game 6'3" 1/2 guard 29 year old to a 6 year, 50 million dollar contract.
- keep your most boneheaded idiot 2 guard on the roster who makes exactly zero people around him better.
- watch hornets trade pj brown and jr smith for chandler and instantly find someone who has a chance of guarding amare.
- prepare to offer a 3-5 year deal at the full MLE to a career spare who has had 1 successful season and then add him to the roster where you just signed a player to a 6 yr/50 mill deal, and also used a #5 pick on a player 2 years ago. by the way, did i mention he's not going to be able to stop any perimeter penetration?
- draft a 2 guard from college, tout him as a wade stopper, only to have spartan fans tell you that the first time he D's up, will be the first they've ever seen any evidence.
- our best utility man who can be had for cheap looks to be gone.
- we have the biggest giant stiff of a center who after 3 years still doesn't have a damn clue

our off season has amounted to more of the knicks than more of the mavs. this is an atrocious offseason. i've been a fan for ages now, and trust me, i can smell the shit storm when its coming to town. and we're in for a total stinker of a season.

I like you. I really do.

But every bit of this is just crap. Every bit.

[Rhylan]

In response to AE's comment about Stack vs. Marquis...

A Basketball IQ Test between those two is a battle of attrition.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

its not that we traded our 10th man. that really is materially irrelevant. its about the fact we traded our best 2, and were left stuck with crackhouse. this is a completely obvious salary dump from a multitude of levels.

If Quis was the best shooting guard why did he not play in the playoffs?

That's the part I don't get. People are moaaning about this trade because the Mavs gave up mucho talent in Daniels for Croshere. SO WHAT? How much talent of Daniels got to play in the playoffs? And Daniels was definitely healthy in the playoffs.

If Daniels was never going to play for this team why are you so upset about him leaving?