Dirk vs Bird...

[chumdawg]

I see no reason to dismiss this comparison out of hand on the basis that "Larry is a legend." Dirk will probably finish his career in a much more legendary fashion than the Celtics hoopster. First international superstar...unique, game-changing player. Probably ends up with as many rings as Bird, probably surpasses all his stats while playing a longer career.

I don't think there is any question that Dirk is a legend in the making. Do you have to wait until something hits you in the face before you can see it coming?

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Tell me why is Dirk compared to Bird? Why not some other good shooter?

I don't mean to be racist or anything

but off the top of my head,

they're both white, tall and shoot 3s...sprinkle in the fact that Dirk always plays GREAT in Boston.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Tell me why is Dirk compared to Bird? Why not some other good shooter?

Reasons why:

1. unique inside outside games
2. both white
3. both known primarily purely for their offensive games before working their way up to par defensively
4. both forwards that have the ability to play multiple positions... bring the ball up court, shoot the three, take the ball to the rim, post up...
5. both tall


Why not compare the two? That doesn't mean that you can't compare Dirk to other players as well...but why not compare him to Larry Bird? Dirk gets compared to KG and TD all the time. So why not compare him to Bird?

[Dirkenstien]

Tell me why is Dirk compared to Bird? Why not some other good shooter?

The answer to this is most likely because of the size similarity, ability to run the floor, and the capability to shoot lights out from beyond the arc. Because of this, there is no other player in the league that currently shows more similarity to Bird than Dirk.

Although I do believe Peja's jump shot looks a lot more similar to Bird's than Dirk's does.

[Five-ofan]

lets face it if people get compared to jordan and alot of them do, you think bird is above comparison? I mean lets be real its not like dirk is some scrub that is of no signifigance. I respect that u like Bird and think he was clearly better than dirk thats fine. I disagree btw what U never answered my question about the great players i mentioned whether you thought they were great or not. Just because the Eternally Self Promoting Network dislikes dallas and thinks that all players from the ne are better doesnt make it so. I think that comparing "insert new athletic wing player here" to jordan is much more of a slight to jordan than dirk to bird but I can see both comparisons

[Simon2]

This is homerism at its finest. I love Dirk, don't get me wrong, but saying he will even be more legendary that Bird is premature ejaculation. Dirk will probably be a legend but let's wait till he finishes his career first before we do any real comparisons. Drazen Petrovic was the first international star.

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I see no reason to dismiss this comparison out of hand on the basis that "Larry is a legend." Dirk will probably finish his career in a much more legendary fashion than the Celtics hoopster. First international superstar...unique, game-changing player. Probably ends up with as many rings as Bird, probably surpasses all his stats while playing a longer career.

I don't think there is any question that Dirk is a legend in the making. Do you have to wait until something hits you in the face before you can see it coming?

[Five-ofan]

Why is it premature? He Improves during the offseason and he has clearly been better than bird at the same ages.

[Simon2]

Dirk is compared to KG and Duncan because they are the best power forwards of this time. Bird is a shooting forward.

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Reasons why:

1. unique inside outside games
2. both white
3. both known primarily purely for their offensive games before working their way up to par defensively
4. both forwards that have the ability to play multiple positions... bring the ball up court, shoot the three, take the ball to the rim, post up...
5. both tall


Why not compare the two? That doesn't mean that you can't compare Dirk to other players as well...but why not compare him to Larry Bird? Dirk gets compared to KG and TD all the time. So why not compare him to Bird?

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Simon2
This is homerism at its finest. I love Dirk, don't get me wrong, but saying he will even be more legendary that Bird is premature ejaculation. Dirk will probably be a legend but let's wait till he finishes his career first before we do any real comparisons. Drazen Petrovic was the first international star.

Good grief, wait until he finishes his career before you make the comparison?? Nuts...That's like not comparing tiger woods to nickalus until tiger if 50 or somethign?? HuH?

[Five-ofan]

That shows the greatness of dirk that he can be compared to both sets. The elite pfs and an all time great sf. Dirk will not be recognized nationally until dallas wins a title and by that i mean win an mvp which he should do this year but i doubt he will. Also if he doesnt make first team all nba everyone with a ballot needs to have there ballot taken away!

[Simon2]

How many people have been compared to Jordan? Even the great Kobe, who had the most potential, isn't close. No one has come close. Maybe Wade but we have to see at the end of his career. Bird is not above comparison. I just think that Dirk being compared to Bird is silly. The main reason being they are both white and can shoot the outside shot. If you were to compare Dirk to Detlef or Googs, it would be sacriligeous (sp?) becuase both aren't regarded as true superstars. Mavs fans have to compare Dirk to the best white, tall guy basketball player who ever lived. Why? Because he's white too.

Anyone else think the movie "Guess Who" is setting a double standard? Its funny for a white guy to try to get into a black family but if anyone made fun of a black guy getting into a white family, it wouldn't be as funny. "Guess who's coming to dinner" with Sidney Poitier.

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
lets face it if people get compared to jordan and alot of them do, you think bird is above comparison? I mean lets be real its not like dirk is some scrub that is of no signifigance. I respect that u like Bird and think he was clearly better than dirk thats fine. I disagree btw what U never answered my question about the great players i mentioned whether you thought they were great or not. Just because the Eternally Self Promoting Network dislikes dallas and thinks that all players from the ne are better doesnt make it so. I think that comparing "insert new athletic wing player here" to jordan is much more of a slight to jordan than dirk to bird but I can see both comparisons

[Five-ofan]

How many have been compared? lets see off the top of my head
Harold Miner
Grant Hill
Tmac but is usually compared to pippen
Kobe
Lebron
D. Wade
Just off the top of my head

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
How many have been compared? lets see off the top of my head
Harold Miner
Grant Hill
Tmac but is usually compared to pippen
Kobe
Lebron
D. Wade
Just off the top of my head

penny hardaway?

[Five-ofan]

Yeah and there r others actually read one article comparing Gerald Freakin Wallace to jordan which really is an insult. It was before he actually played in the nba just talking about how talented he was. I believe it was in sport magazine if anyone remembers that.

[V2M]

As far as I can remember, Stackhouse was supposed to be the first "Heir Apparent".

[grndmstr_c]

How many people have been compared to Jordan? Even the great Kobe, who had the most potential, isn't close. No one has come close. Maybe Wade but we have to see at the end of his career. Bird is not above comparison. I just think that Dirk being compared to Bird is silly. The main reason being they are both white and can shoot the outside shot. If you were to compare Dirk to Detlef or Googs, it would be sacriligeous (sp?) becuase both aren't regarded as true superstars. Mavs fans have to compare Dirk to the best white, tall guy basketball player who ever lived. Why? Because he's white too.

Dirk gets compared to great players because Dirk is blessed with a talent, a work ethic, and quite simply a winning intangible something that's comparable to what the greats have. Factor in that it's a simple and unavoidable fact that on the surface Dirk has more in common with Bird than he does with any other former great, and it's no wonder the comparisons are made between the two of them. I'm still trying to figure out what the problem with that is, btw.

But beyond that, I think it's worth noting that Dirk, like all the greats before him who were compared to the greats before them, has blended all of his gifts together into a unique whole that will make him more than just a guy who got compared to some great players and actually turned out to be good. I think he'll be a guy that other young players with the potential to be great are compared to in the future. Heck, he's one of only a handful of players to whom that sort of thing has already happened, even before he reached his prime. Call it homerism if you want, but I get the same feeling watching Dirk that I got watching Troy and Emmit back in their prime.

Anyone else think the movie "Guess Who" is setting a double standard? Its funny for a white guy to try to get into a black family but if anyone made fun of a black guy getting into a white family, it wouldn't be as funny. "Guess who's coming to dinner" with Sidney Poitier.

Off topic, but I'll take a stab anyway. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Showing different races interacting in the context of a family is one of the best things Hollywood can do with their time as far as I'm concerned - even if I'm not overly optimistic about the quality of the finished product (haven't seen it). People are going to have to learn to get along with one another a little better, and the more they're exposed to examples of it the sooner that's likely to happen.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: Simon2
This is homerism at its finest. I love Dirk, don't get me wrong, but saying he will even be more legendary that Bird is premature ejaculation. Dirk will probably be a legend but let's wait till he finishes his career first before we do any real comparisons. Drazen Petrovic was the first international star.

With all due respect to Drazen, I had a bit of a higher bar in mind.

I believe I have seen enough to fairly estimate that LeBron James may well finish his career as the best player ever to play the game. He's no Maverick, and I'm certainly not a Mavs fan, so there is no homerism there.

I'd like to think that even if I were not a fan of Dirk, I would still not be so blinded that I couldn't recognize the depth of his talent and impact on the game.

For what it's worth, I'm not the kind of Dirk fan that would be prone to ejaculation of any sort, premature or otherwise. Of course I appreciate the fact that he's a great Mavericks player man, but other than his outside shooting there is not a whole lot about his game aesthetically that even tweaks my genitals.

Now, if he continues to assert leadership on the court and does begin to carry his team through several playoff runs, I may begin to get aroused.

[Five-ofan]

I thought miner was before stack but yeah. The moronic mavs announcers used to always compare fin to jordan with stuff like that looked like another guy named michael! On the subject of mavs announcers could we not just get rid of ortegal if we got a tape that said He can do that He Can do that and You dont want him to catch it in there. Worst mav announcer call was pinto when he said about Eddy "Eddy at the free throw line like it was the border and he was going home" And Ro who i like we could just get a tape that says definately bob definately. Pinto we just need him to tape his questions like that brings me to the question of ... which he does every game. I know its off topic but oh well.

[birdsanctuary]

Dirk cannot be compared to Bird and vice versa. There is only one Dirk and there may never be another man of his size with his pure of touch. Wait until Dirk's career is over then you can compare the two but as of right now no fair comparision can be made either way.

Oh I know:
There both caucasian!

[Simon2]

Now that you mention it. I find one thing very interesting about the Jack-Tiger comparison. Nicklaus had one year where his game went south. He retooled and came back the next year. Tiger is doing the same. I'm not sure if it has been a year though but Tiger disappeared and looks to be back.

Its too early to compare right now. A few more years maybe.

Originally posted by: dude1394

Good grief, wait until he finishes his career before you make the comparison?? Nuts...That's like not comparing tiger woods to nickalus until tiger if 50 or somethign?? HuH?

[Simon2]

There one thing that Dirk doesn't have that all the previous greats had. The killer instinct. Jordan, Bird, Magic , Isiah cut your heart out if they needed to to beat you. Dirk is too much of a nice guy. That said, maybe it was Nelson's loser mentality. Ever since AJ took over, do you notice Dirk has been getting a nastier attitude.

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Dirk gets compared to great players because Dirk is blessed with a talent, a work ethic, and quite simply a winning intangible something that's comparable to what the greats have. Factor in that it's a simple and unavoidable fact that on the surface Dirk has more in common with Bird than he does with any other former great, and it's no wonder the comparisons are made between the two of them. I'm still trying to figure out what the problem with that is, btw.

But beyond that, I think it's worth noting that Dirk, like all the greats before him who were compared to the greats before them, has blended all of his gifts together into a unique whole that will make him more than just a guy who got compared to some great players and actually turned out to be good. I think he'll be a guy that other young players with the potential to be great are compared to in the future. Heck, he's one of only a handful of players to whom that sort of thing has already happened, even before he reached his prime. Call it homerism if you want, but I get the same feeling watching Dirk that I got watching Troy and Emmit back in their prime.

Off topic, but I'll take a stab anyway. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Showing different races interacting in the context of a family is one of the best things Hollywood can do with their time as far as I'm concerned - even if I'm not overly optimistic about the quality of the finished product (haven't seen it). People are going to have to learn to get along with one another a little better, and the more they're exposed to examples of it the sooner that's likely to happen.

[Eman]

Also, remember that Dirk's FG % would be much higher if it weren't for all the Threes he shoots that bring the overall percentage down.

[Five-ofan]

You can compare anyone as long as it is done in an objective manner. Ie i can compare Jordan and finley if i want. Anyone who has ever even heard of basketball knows that the comparison isnt close but it is not an unmakeable comparison. The players do not have to be clones to be compared. Their careers also dont have to be exactly the same. You honestly are more ok with comparing wade to jordan than dirk to bird? Because you brought up the wade to Jordan thing. Jordan was better than Bird. Dirk is better than Wade. Therefore, dirk is closer to bird than wade is to jordan. Again players dont have to be the same to be compared. In greatest player ever discussions guards are compared with centers all the time.

[Bayliss]

Dirk vs Bob MacAdoo. Perhaps a better comparison.

[bo319]

I watched Bird play from his ISU days till he last laced 'em up and you can definitely compare Dirk to Bird. Are they clones of each other...no, but they are comparable because of there size and ability to carry their team plus the long range shooting. Bird played with better players...especially on the frontline and he was more creative with his passing leading to more assists. Dirk is bigger and probably a little faster of foot.
This isn't a racist thing but I can't think of another player with the type of skills that Dirk possesses that was a top 7 NBA player. The Dirk vs Duncan or KG comparisons are only similar because of size and position. They have nothing to do with skill set so I find them lacking.

I believe if you give Dirk a front line of McHale and the Chief with a defensive PG like Dennis Johnson and he'd win 3 rings too.

[grndmstr_c]

There one thing that Dirk doesn't have that all the previous greats had. The killer instinct. Jordan, Bird, Magic , Isiah cut your heart out if they needed to to beat you. Dirk is too much of a nice guy. That said, maybe it was Nelson's loser mentality. Ever since AJ took over, do you notice Dirk has been getting a nastier attitude.

Don't confuse Dirk's team-first attitude with lack of a killer instinct. Part of what makes Dirk as good as he is, IMO, is the effortlessness with which he's been able to embrace the necessity of being able to coexist with his teammates and allow them to bring out their games. Nellie had his own vision of how to play, and I consider it a great credit to Dirk's quality as a player that he was so willing to accept Nellie's vision in the days of the Big 3, and has since proven so capable of adapting to the changing of the guard, both in terms of the personnel on the team and the expactations for his own play.

[Simon2]

In this era, he'd win 5 rings with that lineup.

Originally posted by: bo319
I watched Bird play from his ISU days till he last laced 'em up and you can definitely compare Dirk to Bird. Are they clones of each other...no, but they are comparable because of there size and ability to carry their team plus the long range shooting. Bird played with better players...especially on the frontline and he was more creative with his passing leading to more assists. Dirk is bigger and probably a little faster of foot.
This isn't a racist thing but I can't think of another player with the type of skills that Dirk possesses that was a top 7 NBA player. The Dirk vs Duncan or KG comparisons are only similar because of size and position. They have nothing to do with skill set so I find them lacking.

I believe if you give Dirk a front line of McHale and the Chief with a defensive PG like Dennis Johnson and he'd win 3 rings too.

[greensborohill]

Originally posted by: bo319
I believe if you give Dirk a front line of McHale and the Chief with a defensive PG like Dennis Johnson and he'd win 3 rings too.

Dampier, Van Horn, & Harris

Is that close enough?

we have all the peices no one disputes that. We are the most talented and balanced team in the NBA. It's a matter of developing a mentality to lock down on D.

BTW, a few years back I remember KVH was asked about his being compared to Bird, he said that he himself likened his own game to Derrick McKee (a black player for those that don't know). I thought it was kinda refreshing.

[bo319]

Originally posted by: greensborohill

Dampier, Van Horn, & Harris

Is that close enough?

we have all the peices no one disputes that. We are the most talented and balanced team in the NBA. It's a matter of developing a mentality to lock down on D.

BTW, a few years back I remember KVH was asked about his being compared to Bird, he said that he himself likened his own game to Derrick McKee (a black player for those that don't know). I thought it was kinda refreshing.

Hopefully in this day it will be more than enough...the thing is I seriously doubt that Damp & KVH make the hall of fame...Harris is to early to tell. We have plenty of talent now all we need to do is be tough and take no s**t!

[Simon2]

This is homerism too! LOL! KVH vs Bird. That's more like it.

Originally posted by: greensborohill

Dampier, Van Horn, & Harris

Is that close enough?

we have all the peices no one disputes that. We are the most talented and balanced team in the NBA. It's a matter of developing a mentality to lock down on D.

BTW, a few years back I remember KVH was asked about his being compared to Bird, he said that he himself likened his own game to Derrick McKee (a black player for those that don't know). I thought it was kinda refreshing.

[Simon2]

If you want to compare the Celtics and the Mavs, compare the coaches. Both are black, former players that stress D.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Now that you mention it. I find one thing very interesting about the Jack-Tiger comparison. Nicklaus had one year where his game went south. He retooled and came back the next year. Tiger is doing the same. I'm not sure if it has been a year though but Tiger disappeared and looks to be back.

I'm pretty up on Jack's Career and I don't really ever remember him re-tooling his game. He re-tooled his body by loosing weight and one masters he developed a draw on the ball but even then Jack's swing has been pretty consistent. Really high ball hitter, power fade.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: bo319
I watched Bird play from his ISU days till he last laced 'em up and you can definitely compare Dirk to Bird. Are they clones of each other...no, but they are comparable because of there size and ability to carry their team plus the long range shooting. Bird played with better players...especially on the frontline and he was more creative with his passing leading to more assists. Dirk is bigger and probably a little faster of foot.
This isn't a racist thing but I can't think of another player with the type of skills that Dirk possesses that was a top 7 NBA player. The Dirk vs Duncan or KG comparisons are only similar because of size and position. They have nothing to do with skill set so I find them lacking.

I believe if you give Dirk a front line of McHale and the Chief with a defensive PG like Dennis Johnson and he'd win 3 rings too.

Must have been really cool to have watched bird play at ISU.

I sort of think that bird was one of the first "european" players. He was a tall forward who had handles, could shoot and pass. In general most black players seem to be more interested in power basketball and not a lot of finesse. I don't know if it's culture or what. I think Jack Sikma could be put in that mold and maybe havilecek/debusschere, not as good, but comparable skill types.

Pau Gasol is another example that is interesting. When he came from Spain he was much more of a finesse player, but after getting to the nba, they just wanted him to post up,post up, post up. In fact during last years olympics I think I remember his coach fussing about how his skills had eroded. He was playing more of a black mans game.

[Simon2]

There was one year where his game went south. I know he had to work on it for about a year. I'll check my books.

Originally posted by: dude1394

I'm pretty up on Jack's Career and I don't really ever remember him re-tooling his game. He re-tooled his body by loosing weight and one masters he developed a draw on the ball but even then Jack's swing has been pretty consistent. Really high ball hitter, power fade.

[The Crippler]

as Bayliss said, Bob McAdoo is a great comparison.

[Thespiralgoeson]

I can't help but laugh a little when people dismiss the Dirk-Bird comparisons because Dirk has no rings. That's just funny considering the Celtics were pretty much always guaranteed a trip to the finals because they had no competition in the Eastern Conference. The only team that could ever challenge them were the 76'ers. Other than that, the Celtics and Lakers dominated their respective conferences. It wasn't until the twighlight of Bird's career did great teams like Detroit and Chicago to challenge the Celtics. Look at Dirk's Mavericks, sitting right in the middle of the Western Conference filled with great teams that all have been considered contenders at one point in time. Kobe & Shaq's Lakers, Sacramento, Duncan's Spurs, KG's Wolves, and now this season the the Rockets and Suns have thrown themselves into the mix. The game is much different than it was then. Now Dirk may not yet be the complete player that Larry was, because Larry Bird was probably the greatest passing forward of all time, and a formidable defender. Dirk will never dish out the assists the way Bird did, but he still continues to improve his passing game, and has already become a lock-down defender. Let's not forget that Dirk is also much more athletic than Larry was, and will probably have a longer career, unlike Bird who was forced into early retirement because of his back problems.

[dude1394]

How many teams were there back then?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Let's also not forget that when Dirk came to the NBA, 20 wins was a good season for the Mavs. Dirk, along with Nash, and Fin (and Nellie) took this NBA laughing stock and made the Mavs periennial playoff contenders. Bird and Magic on the other hand came to teams that were already talent-filled and just needed a star to make them champions.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Simon2
There was one year where his game went south. I know he had to work on it for about a year. I'll check my books.

He's had the same teacher Jack Grout I believe for his whole career, if it changed, it wasn't a remake I don't think.

[astro]

Bird didn't exactly come to a great team (from the nba.com player profiles):

"The Boston Celtics had selected him in the 1978 NBA Draft, hoping that Bird, who had become eligible for the NBA after his junior year, might forgo his senior season-but knowing he was worth the wait even if he didn't. In 1977-78 the Celtics had compiled a 32-50 record, their worst since 1949-50. When Bird elected to return to Indiana State for one more year the Celtics dipped to 29-53, but Bird finally came to Boston for the 1979-80 campaign and sparked one of the greatest single-season turnarounds in NBA history.

The 1979-80 Celtics improved by 32 games to 61-21 and returned to the top of their division. Playing in all 82 contests, Bird led the team in scoring (21.3 ppg), rebounding (10.4 rpg), steals (143), and minutes played (2,955) and was second in assists (4.5 apg) and three-pointers (58). Although Magic also turned in an impressive first season for the NBA-champion Los Angeles Lakers, Bird was named NBA Rookie of the Year and made the first of his 12 trips to the NBA All-Star Game."